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Old April 2, 2023, 08:36 PM   #1
Metal god
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Adjusting fixed sights question

Hi I have a S&W shield I just put some Trijicon sights on and to shoot to my POA the back sight needs to be over to the right quite a bit IMHO .

Do you only drift one of the sights 100% or do you drift both sights 50% each . At 30 feet the sights seemed on after adjusting but at 25yards they shot to the left a bit . Does it matter if only one is moved ? I'm thinking bore axes to POA type of thing .

I should add this is a small gun for my hands and it really does not fit my hands well . I believe half the problem is my grip because I shoot standard size pistols just fine as well as revolvers
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Old April 2, 2023, 09:13 PM   #2
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Does it shoot the same way with your other hand?

What about when another shooter shoots it?

Have you tried different ammunition, are you getting consistent results?
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Old April 2, 2023, 09:17 PM   #3
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On handguns I have only ever drifted the rear sight to correct a windage issue. So far left the front alone.

I need to install a taller front sight for my mini 1911 to shoot point of aim=point of impact at fifty yards, otherwise it shoots a foot high and some to the left.
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Old April 2, 2023, 10:11 PM   #4
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I shot several different reloads out of it from 115gr , 124gr and 147gr all with different powders , all shot to the left . I did not shoot with the other hand , thats a good idea . Nobody else has shot it . I first adjusted the rear sight some and that pulled it over about half the distance. I then looked at the rear sight and thought if I push that any more it will be noticeably off center . Thats when I moved the front sight just a tad and that got me pretty close at 10yds .

Next time I’ll try shooting one handed as well . I have big fat hands and one fits the grip barely ok but when I add the second hand for suport there does not seem to be a place for it which results in me needing to adjust the other hand to accommodate them both . I really think its my grip but with out someone else there looking at the grip and helping nothing feels right . I feel I need someone there to place my hands on the gun in the proper position and I’ll just learn to live with the feel .
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Old April 2, 2023, 10:57 PM   #5
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I feel I should talk more about the grip and how I modified the grip to fit my hand better .

This is what I did , I added the rubber sleeve to add girth around the frame and added the mag extension to allow my pinky to have a place to sit rather then floating out in the wind .



This is me holding it with one hand the way I would if I were to fire it one handed .



I can't show you both hands and snap the pic so here is what the right hand looks like after I gripped with both hands and removed the left leaving the right how it would sit .



Not sure if it's noticeable but I have to lift a large amount of my right palm away from the grip to allow room for my left meat hook in there . This grip has the right hand oriented to where the web of my hand is in the proper place before the left hand comes in . Once the left hand is placed my right hand web is lifted away from the back of the grip some .

I've tried adjusting the right hand around to the right side of the gun but that puts my web over onto the back right of the grip rather then behind the gun . This allows room for my left hand but completely changes my trigger finger position because it's moved so far forward do to the rotation of my hand around to the right . I mean it all fits like that but seems wrong with my web in the wrong place .
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Old April 4, 2023, 12:27 AM   #6
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Since most of my pistols don't have a front sight that can be drifted, I usually only drift the rear sight, IF needed.

I know about nothing when it comes to cameras in phones, or other devices, but I do remember a time when good cameras were usually 35mm film and many of them had a timer. And were also threaded so they could be mounted on little legs so you didn't have to hold them in your hands...

I am a bit curious about your grip. I admit to not being up on the current idea of "proper" grip technique, and I'm wondering why you think you need your support hand to contact the gun (at all?) and why you think lifting your shooting hand (reducing your grip on the gun) to make room for your support hand is the right thing to do???
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Old April 4, 2023, 08:08 AM   #7
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It’s about the idea of getting the web of your shooting hand as high and tight up on the gun as possible. If that’s a good technique to mitigate recoil and help follow up shots.? Moving the web back and away from its optimal position to allow room for your support hand seems like a logical bad idea, or less than optimal is what I was thinking. I’ve also noticed over the years. If I change my grip that often changes point of impact which is what got me thinking my grip is what’s forcing the bullet to the left rather than the gun shooting left.

My overall thought and why I started this thread was any time I have to move the rear sight far enough for it to be noticeably off-center makes me think it’s the shooter that’s the problem and not the gun assuming the front side is centered obviously which it is/was . That and on the hole I can shoot a handgun pretty well so when I’m shooting way off to the left consistently, I get confused as to why . Keeping in mind, these were brand new just installed sites for the firearm . So when they first shot to the left, it just seemed reasonable maybe they weren’t lined up correctly and a quick adjustment was all that was needed but they seem to need more adjustment then would seem should be necessary.
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Old April 4, 2023, 06:02 PM   #8
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Not to cast aspersion on your shooting abilities, but is your POI low and left? If so, you are anticipating recoil by squeezing your hand and jerking the trigger.
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Old April 4, 2023, 06:55 PM   #9
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No just left …. Well mostly just left . Out of the 100 or so rounds I fired there were a few low as well . If it is me and I think it is . I believe its less my “shooting” and more my grip . More specifically I think its my trigger finger pushing the gun left . This does not happen with any of my several full size hand guns . Not even with full throttle 44mag loads .

I thinks its me trying to fit/squeeze my fat hand into place and still fire as if it’s a full size gun . I took that sleeve off , added Tallon grips and did some dry firing last night . I think I figured out a grip to try out just need to go and shoot and see . I may have to go to an indoor range here in town rather then my big out door range 45min away . I’m weighing the cost of the indoor compared to the extra driving needed for the big range .

Ill update when I do
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Old April 5, 2023, 03:39 PM   #10
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Changing the gun's grip, changing your grip on the gun can change the way you look though the sights. Changing the way you look through the sights will affect your point of impact, compared to your point of aim.

Best way to do this is to only change one thing at a time. Then shoot and see the results. IF you don't get the desired results, change one thing again, then shoot. Repeat the process until you get where you want to be.

Changing more than one thing at a time leaves you uncertain which change created different results.

People hold different guns differently. Different people look through the sights differently. What works for you could be off, for me, and vice versa.

Good Luck with your project, just be aware that anyone saying "this will work" might not work, for you. Might work, might not, you won't know until you try.
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Old April 5, 2023, 07:18 PM   #11
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Thanks 44 , yeah that’s what the dry firing was doing . Seeing what grip and trigger pull/placement combo was more likely to cause the gun to move when firing. Now all that is left is to put the theory through live fire test . Fwiw the tallon grips are not actual grips , they are basically grip tape custom cut to fit specific guns . They make it a little more grippy and don’t change the “grip/frame” size like the sleeve did . I use them on several of my handguns that have smoother grip textures on there frames . I like them , you can get them in standard grip tape sand paper type texture or a more rubbery type less aggressive feel version . I have them both and like the rubber type better but the standard if very grippy like wrapping your grip with 80 grit sandpaper .
https://talongungrips.com/
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Old April 8, 2023, 12:52 PM   #12
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Well, I’m going to assume you are using the normal 2 handed grip where your left hand thumb slips right under your right hand thumb and is pushing the grip into that right hand…

If you are concerned you are not gripping it well, an hour of personal instruction could clear that up for under $100. I’m not sure I can internet teach that. There are good videos on YouTube for that.

I adjust based on what I see. Do one or both sights look off center? Adjust the one that looks off center. I use this tool and it works. Just a nudge!

LINK TO TOOL
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Old April 8, 2023, 03:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Well, I’m going to assume you are using the normal 2 handed grip where your left hand thumb slips right under your right hand thumb and is pushing the grip into that right hand…
That is absolutely not a "normal" grip for me, not even close. In fact, it sounds rather foolish to me. And, I have better things to do with "under $100" than have someone tell me what has worked for me for the past 50+ years is something I'm doing "wrong".

Different strokes I guess. If you hit what you intend to hit, your grip isn't wrong. Might not be the most efficient but its not wrong.

I'm right handed, and shoot right handed. I think taking any part of my right hand off the gun so I can put part of my left hand on the gun doesn't seem right. Particularly when shooting small gripped guns that don't have room to use all your right hand in the first place.

Just my opinion you should, of course do what works best for you.
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Old April 8, 2023, 06:38 PM   #14
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And, I have better things to do with "under $100" than have someone tell me what has worked for me for the past 50+ years is something I'm doing "wrong".
I’m sorry you thought I said your grip was wrong. I read my post several times, but cannot find where I told you your grip is wrong.

This is the standard grip I’m referring to:
Miculek on grip

My grip is not standard as I’m missing my left hand. My grip just is what it is. I guess my point is that there is a standard grip that is instructed every day. A person can take a class, get a private lesson, ask a friend, watch a video, etc to pick that skill up. …..or if like you, they don’t want to learn that, they can choose not to learn that. I’m not here to police anybody’s grip…or stance or shooting for that matter.

Carry on sir.
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Old April 8, 2023, 10:59 PM   #15
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Nathan , Yeah that's my grip . Been that for several years now . I used to pinch/clamp my right thumb down with my left thumb and that worked quite well for 30yrs+ . I went back and forth for about a year and settled in on that "standard" grip most are teaching now . At first it felt odd but of course it would after shooting differently for 30years . There are numerous reasons I like the new grip - more comfortable since I'm no longer smashing my right thumb into the firearm , sights seem to naturally line up better quicker to name a couple .

The issue with the small grip is my big fat fingers from my right hand wrap around the grip to far and get in the way of my left big fat palm lol . If my hands were thinner I'd bet everything would be fine but genetics are what they are . I have my dads hand and he had his fathers hands . I'm just a big guy at 6'3" 275lbs , I'd love to shed about 35lbs of that but I've never lost weight in my life . I've always just jumped 10 to 20lbs at a time over the years every ten years or so . I was going to test tomorrow but switched that to Wednesday . I have a new grip extension coming in on Tuesday that I'd like to try at the same time .

I'll update for sure what happens .
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Old April 9, 2023, 12:39 AM   #16
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Here is a much more detailed explanation/training on how to shoot a pistol.

See 8:30 for grip explanation .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s
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Old April 9, 2023, 02:29 PM   #17
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I’m sorry you thought I said your grip was wrong.
Apologies to you, in return, my rant about being told I use the "wrong" grip was not directed at you, personally. Sorry for the confusion.

Its just that I've heard "you're doing it wrong" so often from lots of people its almost a given somebody is going to say it.

Yes, there is a more or less standard being taught everyday. And, there was a different one taught 30-40 years ago (generally Weaver or something close), and a different one taught 30-40 years before that (one handed only).

Metal God. I think the root of your problem is that you are trying to wear a size 6 ballet slipper on your size 10 feet. Its not a genetic problem, its a choice of footwear & size issue. So to speak.

Your fine in workboots, or dress shoes, or even sneakers, made to fit your feet, but that's not the case here.

There's no reducing your feet (or in this case, hands) and you can only stretch that "ballet slipper" so much. Perhaps the thing to do is to consider a gun better suited to the size of your hands.

There's no free lunch, but consider this, for a defensive gun, what is the primary function? What is most important? Having the smallest possible package for concealment, or having something you can hold and shoot well?

Belly to belly range its not going to matter, but beyond that, it does. Sight alignment (meaning the way you look through the sights) isn't going to be consistent if your hold on the gun isn't. And a grip that is too small or too large for your hands means its tough to be consistent every time you grip the gun.
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Old April 9, 2023, 02:55 PM   #18
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44 agreed , my issue is the CA safe handgun roster . There are actually very few ccw options “aloud” in CA . The Shield is one of the best . I’ve tried/handled all the options and the shield is my only concealable option. I carried my full size XD and Storm for a bit to try them out . They were ok , worked but heavy and much less concealable . You are right though if I can’t get this shield to work out I will have to go to a larger framed firearm.

Here in CA we are stuck with Glock gen 3 and those have finger grooves that don’t line up with my finger placement. Still looking at a 26 and also considering XD compact or subcompact.

I’m going to a local gun store on Wednesday I’m going to look through some options there but I have firearms already that should work . My XD45 compact would fit the bill I’d think but not the caliber I wanted to carry . IDK we’ll see how Wednesday goes when I try my new mods and grip out , I should have this worked out in the next couple weeks .
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Old April 9, 2023, 03:07 PM   #19
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The importance of proper ‘Zero’, AKA sight regulation, cannot be overstated.

https://www.thesixgunjournal.net/the...tance-of-zero/
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Old April 13, 2023, 09:43 AM   #20
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Ok ready for this

This is a good representation of my 30' groups when I first got to the range both with full size 45 acp ( XD 45 ) and my 9mm Shield .



I tried several things to include minor grip changes and trigger finger placements but nothing seemed to help . It might have a little but nothing consistent .



I then went to a big change on trigger finger placement to where just the tip of my finger was on the trigger and the groups tightened up some but were still left and this is with both guns shooting to the exact same place .



At this point my buddy says shoot my Sig P365 and I do , all shots low but pretty much centered .

So with the new trigger placement and my guns , I was low left but better groups . I shot well over 200rds , actually had to buy some while I was there . I then was thinking how I keep making room for my left hand by shifting my right hand a bit . I decided to place my right hand/web exactly as the pro's say and put the left where ever it fit and I got this .



OK so that seemed to work but not comfortable at all . With that grip and new trigger placement I was back to center-ish but still low . My last group of the day was this which I'm happy-ish with considering where I started but I'm still low just like I was with the P365 .



I will add that my eyes are a big issue as well I shot with and with out my prescriptions glasses on . With , sights are so blurry it's hard to see what center is with the front sight . With out , the 1" dot target at 30' is blurry as hell and double so there's that

Anyways I'm shooting better without adjusting the sights. Everything was done with grip and trigger finger . I'm shooting again a week from Friday . I'll run through this again and see if what I think I figured out today rings true in two weeks .

What say you , be nice I'm already embarrassed enough over here .
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Old April 13, 2023, 09:46 AM   #21
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I’ll add . The friend that was with me was truly mystified why I was shooting so bad . With all do respect to him I’ve always been able to shoot circles around him . I’ve been the guy people give there guns to to check and see how accurate they are . All of a sudden I can’t shoot worth crap and it’s VERY frustrating!!!! We both just kept looking at each other WTH man .

Example : this is the second mag ever fired from a Springfield standard GI 1911 about 10 years ago at 25' , this is how I used to shoot . Something has happened since and I don't know what

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Old April 13, 2023, 01:49 PM   #22
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Of course being able to place shots is a top priority. "You can't miss fast enough"
I have a S+W M+P 9C and a Shield Plus. Pretty similar. The M+P 9C is wider and fills my hand better. The Shield Plus is lighter and narrower . Better for concealed carry. Its shades of grey. At 5 feet in a panic I'd choose the gun I had on me.
At 50 feet I might shoot better with the M+P. At 50 feet I might be better off to escape.

I'm not a fan of the Dremel grind,reshape,and stipple routine some do to polymer frames. Thickness of wall section matters. Failure is not as option but it could happen.
What I have done is make "adjustments" If I have a muscle or tendon moving the frame during a trigger squeeze, Yes! I will use a scraper to judiciously relieve a minimal amount of material . If an outside corner is making a noticeable pressure point on a knuckle or finger, I'll soften it just a little. Nothing radical. Its like "inletting" a pre-carved stock.

Dry firing and evaluating my grip ,natural point of aim,etc...I made a discovery with the Shield. The textbook "align the gun with the forearm" and "place the pad of the trigger finger on the trigger" .....Yeah.its OK.

But I was working on quick ,consistent sight acquisition and not moving the gun with trigger pull. I do have a couple of "landmarks" like "This thumb contacts here" Trigger finger parks here" but I found the most consistent "good results" came with my "panic grab" grip. The trigger finger(when placed) was in the first joint wrinkle . This was with the little Shield and my hand . I don't do Weaver and I don't scrunch my neck . My arm is offset from my eye. Facing the target,I bring the slide up to alignment to my eye. Guess what? The gun cannot be in alignment with my forearm.Its about 15 degrees off. I quit worrying about it.
There is a natural , anatomically correct, balanced skeletal stack that your body knows. Its in your operating system.

Simplify your "list" to the draw and bringing the gun up to alignment with your eye. Yes,maintain safe trigger discipline and find your sights.

Your focus,IMO, needs to be on situation. Shoot? Don't Shoot? Run? etc,

Get the gun from the holster to your hand. Bring it to alignment with your eye. Process whether to Shoot/Don/t shoot. Move to someplace better.

Certainly you need marksmanship competency. Work on that . Its a good thing.

Four inch groups or eight inch groups may be academic at conflict distance.
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Old April 15, 2023, 10:17 AM   #23
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Drift the sight.
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Old April 15, 2023, 11:09 AM   #24
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I did , both of them which was the original question . Do I drift one or both ? Had I not worked on the grip the rear sight would have been significantly off-center . If that’s required there is something wrong with the firearm or the shooter . Fixing the reason I was shooting left and low seemed like a better idea . Not to different then fixing your golf slice by adjusting your swing rather then buying a new club and just aiming to the left of the fairway .
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Old April 16, 2023, 09:04 AM   #25
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You want the front sight centered over the bore, then any/all adjustment is done at the rear.
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