Sturmgewehr 44 Value for a newbie

Bildo · May 25, 2007, 07:38 PM

I promissed my secretary 6 months ago that I'd find out the value of her Dad's Sturmgewehr 44. It has its original leather sling, capture papers included and certification that it was converted to semi-auto before it could be brought home. I have no pictures but its in good shape 70%. One Mag.
I've never found one on an auction site. Anyone ever seen one for sale? I suggested she put a very high reserve and put it on an auction site to see what turns up. When you realize an old 1920s Thompson sub might bring $25K+ in good shape (if still in full auto, class III), I thought a $40K reserve might be a good starting point as a wild guess to insure it doesn't sell. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Most of the old gun dealers I've met can't give me an answer. I just found this site and was very entertained and learned a couple of things I didn't know about some of my handguns. Better check the pins on my 1st generation Taurus Millenium PT111. The posts by forum member Sturmgewehr reminded me of my pursuit. Danke.

opscwo · May 26, 2007, 06:12 AM

There is a site named the same as your weapon. Buddy runs it, he will know the value and collectability...

TJK1951 · May 26, 2007, 08:11 AM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, If there are no papers showing that that weapon was registered during the 1968 amnesty or manufactured by a class II mfg and registered that way before the 86 machinegun ban.....it's contriban and illegal to have.
Capture papers will not superseed the requirement for it to be registered with BATFE prior to or at the 68 amnesty.

So as it is now, without BATFE registration, it's a illegal receiver with a bunch of valuable parts attached to it.

armoredman · May 26, 2007, 09:46 AM

I believe he is right - BATFE says "once a machinegun, ALWAYS a machinegun."

Crosshair · May 27, 2007, 12:36 AM

Looks like another possible case of STFU and don't tell anyone.

I bet a large number of us know at least one person in such a situation.

TJK1951 · May 27, 2007, 06:34 AM

There are many vets or their family members in this position. I have heard of a few beautiful & valuable war trophies that were surrendered or just destroyed by the owner (for fear of calling anyone).

The shame is, that in 1968 when congress passed the amnisty, they passed 90 days of amnisty.
BUT, only 30days was enacted. That means BATFE could declare any 60 day period as the remainder of the original amnisty. That would help out people in this exact situation, as long as it was publicized so everyone knew when and how to comply with it.
That would turn this "pile of valuable parts on an illegal receiver" into a $15,000 windfall for the vet's family.
And also get several illegal guns properly registered and on the NFA rolls.

Bildo · May 27, 2007, 10:37 PM

I haven't seen the paperwork. It may have been properly registered. I'll explain to her. If not I guess she could put it in the hands of a Class III dealer or does it have to go to BATF for distruction.

doorgunner · May 28, 2007, 12:30 AM

It's most likely contraband, and if the BATFE can show that she knowingly possessed it, she can be tried. Anyone who assisted her in concealing it (ie. failed to contact BATFE) can and most likely will be charged with conspiracy to possess an illegal machine gun.

That's a road that you don't want to travel. The penalty for conspiracy is the same as the original offense. A fine that you most likely cannot afford, and 10 years of your freedom.

Sounds like a heap of scrap metal that unfortunately needs to be turned over.

TJK1951 · May 28, 2007, 07:05 AM

IF there is no BATF paperwork on the weapon, I wouldn't just surrender it.
This is what I would do, FAST.
Disassemble it, take all the parts off of the receiver and out oof it also. From where the buttsock attaches to the receiver forward to where the FRONT of the ejection port is, have someone cut that part of the receiver with a cutting torch. Make sure it is torch cut and have him use a tip that will remove at least 1/4" of metal. After he does that you'll have the front half, from the front of the ejection port (with the barrel trunion still intact) and the barrel in one long piece and two smaller pieces from the ejection port towards the back of the receiver where the stock slid onto it. NOW, you are legal and have some valuable parts that can be sold 100% legally.
Without checking, I believe those parts, the 3 receiver parts and all the parts that you stripped of of the outside and out of inside will bring well over $1,000 on the market. The mags are bringing over $100 in nice condition.
I've been in this business since 1974 and it makes me sick to hear of things like this where a valuable piece of history has to be destroyed insteady of allowing it's registeration and preservation.
Good Luck!

Daniel BOON · May 28, 2007, 11:27 PM

I guess they make organizations like the BATF for a good reason, but I haven't thought of any.

atblis · May 29, 2007, 08:49 AM

When did the start the once a machine gun always a machine gun thing? I don't think that can be retroactive.

TJK1951 · May 29, 2007, 03:18 PM

According to our BATFE, "once a machinegun receiver, ALWAYS a machinegun receiver".

Even our crazy anti-gun neighbors to the north allow things like this STG44 to be kept as long as it's rendered semi-auto capable only.
I have friends north of the border that have many AK's that started out selectfire, but were rendered semi only and now legal (as long as RCMP has record of it).

I definately would strip it and cut the receiver into 3 pieces and sell ALL the parts, receiver parts included. That way you're secretary has some pocket money and is NOT in any danger of a knock on the door in the middle of the night.
You could sell the parts on this board or any one of the many online.

atblis · May 30, 2007, 02:29 PM

I'd put it in a closet, and forget that it exists. Too rich a piece of history to destroy.

KAD · May 30, 2007, 02:36 PM

There have been rumors of another amnesty for NFA weapons brought home by veterans. There may be a way to donate it to a museum. If were really really lucky the SCOTUS will force the registry to reopen, but I don't know if that would help in your situation.

Bildo · June 2, 2007, 12:06 PM

I asked her some more questions. I didn't really get to hold it or check it over as it was in a locked display; couldn't find the key. Her dad had it completely deactivated to satisfy BATF. She found that paperwork. It looked OK on the display side. I don't know if it was cut or welded but its now a wall hanger. What a shame. Thanks for the input. I have a friend with a Class 3 permit that would pay top dollar for one.

shaggy · June 2, 2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Her dad had it completely deactivated to satisfy BATF. She found that paperwork

What paperwork? Please be specific; that could be the key to whether it could be legally reactivated or whether it needs to be stripped of its parts and the receiver destroyed. There are dewats on the registry that transfer as live weapons and can be legally re-watted; these retain almost all of the value a transferable or C&R machinegun of the same type. Depending upon exactly what paperwork she has, it could mean the difference between it being worth a few hundred dollars as spare parts or thousands of dollars as a registered piece.

Also, is her father alive or dead? If he's deceased, she could contact the administrator/executor of the estate and have them contact the NFA Branch at BATFE to see what weapons he had registered to his name. If the StG44 comes up as a dewatt registered to him, she could be in luck.

Mnguy56 · August 24, 2007, 11:23 PM

Check the paperwork carefully. I found a STG44 in a basement in my hometown. It had been brought back after the war. ATF confiscated it in 1946. They "brazed" the handle on the Operating Rod back and released it as a "permanently inoperative war trophy." It still had to be legally transfered to me doing the photo's and fingerprints, background check etc. Transfer cost was $100 instead of the normal $200 for a full auto weapon. After I received it I submitted a "Form 1" along with $200 and reactivated it. Tool about 15 minutes in my shop.
Also - anyone can call BATF and ask to have a serial number checked. If it's been registered they will tell you. Won't tell you who owns it or any other details. One more thing - lots of records have been lost by the government. The original Form 4 as issued by the government in some cases is the only remaining record. Make sure it's kept in a safe place and have certified copies made etc.The long and short of it is - check carefully - don't jump to the conclusion that's it's not a registered gun. But also be aware possession of a illegal machine gun is a felony.

VUPDblue · August 25, 2007, 09:06 PM

I thought DEWATs had to transfer on Form4's

. If so, then it would have to be a $200 tax. There is no $100 NFA stamp, only $200 stamps and $5 stamps. Maybe did the seller pay 1/2 the tax for you as part of the deal?

MisterPX · August 26, 2007, 01:41 AM

There is no $100 tax stamp for NFA items.

Arabia · August 27, 2007, 07:00 PM

So you just admitted on a PUBLIC forum that you know someone that has an illegal machine gun. Good work. This thread should be deleted.

9mmHP · August 27, 2007, 07:17 PM

No, he did not. It could be a registered DEWAT. We can't tell from the info provided and neither can you.

When I worked in the 109th Congress we were sponsors on a bill to allow unregistered war trophies of deceased vets to be registered by heirs transfer tax free on filing on an affidavit that the item was a war bring back, that the vet was deceased, that they were the rightful heir, etc. The bill would have made guns that might fall into the black market legal, registered, and safely owned. It made too much sense to get passed.

May 25, 2007, 07:38 PM	#1
Bildo Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: Southside Virginia middle of the long southern state line, a rifle shot from NC Posts: 5	Sturmgewehr 44 Value for a newbie I promissed my secretary 6 months ago that I'd find out the value of her Dad's Sturmgewehr 44. It has its original leather sling, capture papers included and certification that it was converted to semi-auto before it could be brought home. I have no pictures but its in good shape 70%. One Mag. I've never found one on an auction site. Anyone ever seen one for sale? I suggested she put a very high reserve and put it on an auction site to see what turns up. When you realize an old 1920s Thompson sub might bring $25K+ in good shape (if still in full auto, class III), I thought a $40K reserve might be a good starting point as a wild guess to insure it doesn't sell. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Most of the old gun dealers I've met can't give me an answer. I just found this site and was very entertained and learned a couple of things I didn't know about some of my handguns. Better check the pins on my 1st generation Taurus Millenium PT111. The posts by forum member Sturmgewehr reminded me of my pursuit. Danke.

May 26, 2007, 08:11 AM	#3
TJK1951 Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2006 Location: LaGrange, OH Posts: 7	Stg 44 I hate to be the bearer of bad news, If there are no papers showing that that weapon was registered during the 1968 amnesty or manufactured by a class II mfg and registered that way before the 86 machinegun ban.....it's contriban and illegal to have. Capture papers will not superseed the requirement for it to be registered with BATFE prior to or at the 68 amnesty. So as it is now, without BATFE registration, it's a illegal receiver with a bunch of valuable parts attached to it.

May 27, 2007, 12:36 AM	#5
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Looks like another possible case of STFU and don't tell anyone. I bet a large number of us know at least one person in such a situation. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

May 27, 2007, 06:34 AM	#6
TJK1951 Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2006 Location: LaGrange, OH Posts: 7	Stg 44 There are many vets or their family members in this position. I have heard of a few beautiful & valuable war trophies that were surrendered or just destroyed by the owner (for fear of calling anyone). The shame is, that in 1968 when congress passed the amnisty, they passed 90 days of amnisty. BUT, only 30days was enacted. That means BATFE could declare any 60 day period as the remainder of the original amnisty. That would help out people in this exact situation, as long as it was publicized so everyone knew when and how to comply with it. That would turn this "pile of valuable parts on an illegal receiver" into a $15,000 windfall for the vet's family. And also get several illegal guns properly registered and on the NFA rolls.

May 27, 2007, 10:37 PM	#7
Bildo Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: Southside Virginia middle of the long southern state line, a rifle shot from NC Posts: 5	STG 44 vs BATF I haven't seen the paperwork. It may have been properly registered. I'll explain to her. If not I guess she could put it in the hands of a Class III dealer or does it have to go to BATF for distruction.

May 26, 2007, 06:12 AM	#2
opscwo Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 7	There is a site named the same as your weapon. Buddy runs it, he will know the value and collectability...

May 26, 2007, 09:46 AM	#4
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	I believe he is right - BATFE says "once a machinegun, ALWAYS a machinegun."

May 28, 2007, 12:30 AM	#8
doorgunner Member Join Date: August 21, 2004 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 19	It's most likely contraband, and if the BATFE can show that she knowingly possessed it, she can be tried. Anyone who assisted her in concealing it (ie. failed to contact BATFE) can and most likely will be charged with conspiracy to possess an illegal machine gun. That's a road that you don't want to travel. The penalty for conspiracy is the same as the original offense. A fine that you most likely cannot afford, and 10 years of your freedom. Sounds like a heap of scrap metal that unfortunately needs to be turned over.

May 28, 2007, 07:05 AM	#9
TJK1951 Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2006 Location: LaGrange, OH Posts: 7	Stg 44 IF there is no BATF paperwork on the weapon, I wouldn't just surrender it. This is what I would do, FAST. Disassemble it, take all the parts off of the receiver and out oof it also. From where the buttsock attaches to the receiver forward to where the FRONT of the ejection port is, have someone cut that part of the receiver with a cutting torch. Make sure it is torch cut and have him use a tip that will remove at least 1/4" of metal. After he does that you'll have the front half, from the front of the ejection port (with the barrel trunion still intact) and the barrel in one long piece and two smaller pieces from the ejection port towards the back of the receiver where the stock slid onto it. NOW, you are legal and have some valuable parts that can be sold 100% legally. Without checking, I believe those parts, the 3 receiver parts and all the parts that you stripped of of the outside and out of inside will bring well over $1,000 on the market. The mags are bringing over $100 in nice condition. I've been in this business since 1974 and it makes me sick to hear of things like this where a valuable piece of history has to be destroyed insteady of allowing it's registeration and preservation. Good Luck!

May 28, 2007, 11:27 PM	#10
Daniel BOON Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Henderson NV Posts: 360	The best country in the world? I guess they make organizations like the BATF for a good reason, but I haven't thought of any.

May 29, 2007, 08:49 AM	#11
atblis Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2005 Posts: 441	Hmm When did the start the once a machine gun always a machine gun thing? I don't think that can be retroactive.

May 29, 2007, 03:18 PM	#12
TJK1951 Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2006 Location: LaGrange, OH Posts: 7	Stg 44 According to our BATFE, "once a machinegun receiver, ALWAYS a machinegun receiver". Even our crazy anti-gun neighbors to the north allow things like this STG44 to be kept as long as it's rendered semi-auto capable only. I have friends north of the border that have many AK's that started out selectfire, but were rendered semi only and now legal (as long as RCMP has record of it). I definately would strip it and cut the receiver into 3 pieces and sell ALL the parts, receiver parts included. That way you're secretary has some pocket money and is NOT in any danger of a knock on the door in the middle of the night. You could sell the parts on this board or any one of the many online.

May 30, 2007, 02:29 PM	#13
atblis Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2005 Posts: 441	Personally I'd put it in a closet, and forget that it exists. Too rich a piece of history to destroy.

May 30, 2007, 02:36 PM	#14
KAD Member Join Date: October 17, 2001 Location: SE MI Posts: 20	There have been rumors of another amnesty for NFA weapons brought home by veterans. There may be a way to donate it to a museum. If were really really lucky the SCOTUS will force the registry to reopen, but I don't know if that would help in your situation.

June 2, 2007, 12:06 PM	#15
Bildo Junior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: Southside Virginia middle of the long southern state line, a rifle shot from NC Posts: 5	Deactivated I asked her some more questions. I didn't really get to hold it or check it over as it was in a locked display; couldn't find the key. Her dad had it completely deactivated to satisfy BATF. She found that paperwork. It looked OK on the display side. I don't know if it was cut or welded but its now a wall hanger. What a shame. Thanks for the input. I have a friend with a Class 3 permit that would pay top dollar for one.

August 24, 2007, 11:23 PM	#17
Mnguy56 Junior Member Join Date: August 22, 2007 Posts: 2	Check the paperwork carefully. I found a STG44 in a basement in my hometown. It had been brought back after the war. ATF confiscated it in 1946. They "brazed" the handle on the Operating Rod back and released it as a "permanently inoperative war trophy." It still had to be legally transfered to me doing the photo's and fingerprints, background check etc. Transfer cost was $100 instead of the normal $200 for a full auto weapon. After I received it I submitted a "Form 1" along with $200 and reactivated it. Tool about 15 minutes in my shop. Also - anyone can call BATF and ask to have a serial number checked. If it's been registered they will tell you. Won't tell you who owns it or any other details. One more thing - lots of records have been lost by the government. The original Form 4 as issued by the government in some cases is the only remaining record. Make sure it's kept in a safe place and have certified copies made etc.The long and short of it is - check carefully - don't jump to the conclusion that's it's not a registered gun. But also be aware possession of a illegal machine gun is a felony.

August 25, 2007, 09:06 PM	#18
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	I thought DEWATs had to transfer on Form4's . If so, then it would have to be a $200 tax. There is no $100 NFA stamp, only $200 stamps and $5 stamps. Maybe did the seller pay 1/2 the tax for you as part of the deal? __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

August 26, 2007, 01:41 AM	#19
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	There is no $100 tax stamp for NFA items.

August 27, 2007, 07:00 PM	#20
Arabia Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Massachusetts, The Bay State Posts: 432	So you just admitted on a PUBLIC forum that you know someone that has an illegal machine gun. Good work. This thread should be deleted.

August 27, 2007, 07:17 PM	#21
9mmHP Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area Posts: 318	No, he did not. It could be a registered DEWAT. We can't tell from the info provided and neither can you. When I worked in the 109th Congress we were sponsors on a bill to allow unregistered war trophies of deceased vets to be registered by heirs transfer tax free on filing on an affidavit that the item was a war bring back, that the vet was deceased, that they were the rightful heir, etc. The bill would have made guns that might fall into the black market legal, registered, and safely owned. It made too much sense to get passed.