Owner fights back, kills robber

[WIN71]

many a cops use flashlights to beat their subjects instead of the baton due to "deadly force" requirements, where a 6 cell D Maglite flashlight isnt a deadly weapon but the baton is. though end results are the same.

A profound statement. One I've never heard before. You obviously have a rare insight into police training and procedures.

[BloodyBucket03]

Awesome!! One less scum bag the tax payer of Pennsylvania has to pay to house in The Department of Correction. Yeah “You just saved yourself $33,000 dollars a year how do you feel?"

[JohnKSa]

so if you are allowed deadly force, it means you are allowed to kill him to stop the threat. what is what deadly force means.

You are allowed to use deadly force to stop an attack with the understanding that death may result. That is not the same thing as saying that you are "allowed to kill him to stop the threat". Death is a permissible side effect of the use of deadly force, it is not the intent. I'm not familiar with the deadly force statutes of ALL the states, but I've poked through a few of them. I have yet to see a law that says you can kill to stop an attack. They all deal with the use of deadly force, not the prognosis of the attacker.

Your goal is to stop the attack, not to kill the attacker, and certainly not to minimize your chances of being sued by killing the attacker.

...where a 6 cell D Maglite flashlight isnt a deadly weapon...

If you hit someone with a 6 cell D maglite, it is a deadly weapon. It may not carry the same stigma as hitting someone with a baton, but the courts will not make allowances because you injure someone with a makeshift weapon vs one that is expressly intended to be a weapon.

It has been said, the only really quick way to totally incapacitate a human is to kill him with a bullet.

Many things "have been said". That is one of the things that "has been said" but is false.

If I am faced with a either him or me situation, you bet I'm gonna empty that mag into the adversary, and reload and empty it again so long as he still holds the weapon or is still standing. I'll do all I can do to stop the threat.

You're allowed to keep using deadly force until the threat stops. At that point you must legally stop too, regardless of your assessment of your chances of being sued.

[stephen426]

Poor guys... Why did Mr. Lee have to shoot them in the head instead of wounding them in the leg... :barf: Just kidding. I'm sure that what those two scumbags' families will say though. I can't say I have any pity for them. They very well might have forced everyone in the cooler after they robbed them and executed them. The reaped what they sowed. Justice.

[Socrates]

John has a point. With a guy counting to ten, threatening to shoot the cashier, or going to shoot the cashier, shooting him in the head is justified, and, also, an excellent tactic if you can make the shot. It reduces the threat to one person, and, removes, by 50%, the chance of either wife, cashier, waitress, or bystander being shot in the crossfire. The owner was actually using the 'defense of others' part of self-defense, justifying use of deadly force. If in the same position as the person you are trying to protect, you would be justified in using deadly force, then another may use deadly force to protect you. This is common law, usually the basis for most state's laws.
Having a gun pointed at your head, and someone counting to ten, prior to shooting you, certainly justifies deadly force, except, perhaps in Kalifornia.

One of the police was reported to have said he was justified in using force to protect his property. THAT, AS A GENERAL RULE, IS NOT TRUE. Only Louisiana has laws to that effect, and, it appears the judicial and police systems don't enforce the laws of Louisiana, except as they please.

You can't worry about the civil lawsuits. Remember, in civil law, the less damage done, the less can be sued for.
If you kill someone, then their potential life earnings can be sued for by their family. I was almost killed by a doctor, and surgery, and, that was only worth 14k, because I'm still alive.

What I really like about this guy was his restraint after the shooting, and, not making the mistake of shooting to stop the fleeing felon. VERY level headed, in a dangerous situation, and, for someone who may not have been raised here, shows an excellent understanding of the legal system.

S

[kennybs plbg]

One of the police was reported to have said he was justified in using force to protect his property. THAT, AS A GENERAL RULE, IS NOT TRUE. Only Louisiana has laws to that effect, and, it appears the judicial and police systems don't enforce the laws of Louisiana, except as they please.

Not smart to start painting everything with the same brush. You are way off base here. New York State Penal Law allows the same, as I'm sure many other states do also.

kenny b

[Mikeyboy]

I moved to Philly a couple of years ago. I have lived in many places, NYC, Las Vegas, the South, and the Midwest. I can say that I have never seen any place like Philly. Philadelphia has this really weird and dangerous characteristic to it.

poortrader, what kind of noted differences are you seeing in philly compared to the other places?

Bandit...I was born and raised in Philly, and I think what poortrader is seeing is with the exception of the liberal, elite, yuppie and upper income types, Philadelphians are know for being tough, foul mouthed, violent people. Look at our sports fans, Eagles fans booed and throw snowballs at Santa, Jimmie Johnson and the Dallas Cowboys. Even old, blue collar, white women are bad *** so unfortunately our street criminals are real bad.

I brung this up a few times and got lip on this forum but Philly has a real bad illegal gun problem. There are a lot of guns in the hands of street criminals. Also due to city government mismanagement and corruption good, regular people are fleeing the city (my family included), and the bad people from the really bad neighborhoods are spreading throughout the city like a cancer. 20 years ago Philly was a tough town, but still filled with some nice people and great things, now it just dangerous.

I have lived in NJ and the NYC area, and been in some rough towns around the world, but for some reason when I go into Philly, even into my old neighborhood, I'm always watching and always carrying. While I did have some fond memories, for the most part I hate Philly and what it has become.

[Smokin Joe]

If you hit someone with a 6 cell D maglite, it is a deadly weapon. It may not carry the same stigma as hitting someone with a baton, but the courts will not make allowances because you injure someone with a makeshift weapon vs one that is expressly intended to be a weapon.

NOT what I was saying. the police must use force with regulation.

to strike someone with a baton IS DEADLY FORCE. a baton is a DEADLY WEAPON.

you cant strike a person with your baton till you are allowed to use deadly force. something you can be in trouble for.

Even if I tap you with the baton, it is deadly force. because it is a deadly weapon.

I can tap you with the flashlight all day long, which is not deadly force.

its just regulations. did you know it is illegal for a civilian to have this baton here in NYC? but a civillian can have a broomstick made of the same material and be of the same dimentions.

its all regulations. ( taught to me by the new york state division of criminal justice services or something like that many years ago,)

You are allowed to use deadly force to stop an attack with the understanding that death may result. That is not the same thing as saying that you are "allowed to kill him to stop the threat". Death is a permissible side effect of the use of deadly force, it is not the intent.

I would like to expand on this with :

Deadly force MEANS force that would MOST LIKELY kill the person. ( not just MAY kill the person ) hence the usage of the word "deadly"

[JohnKSa]

did you know it is illegal for a civilian to have this baton here in NYC? but a civillian can have a broomstick made of the same material and be of the same dimentions.

Somewhat similar laws here. "Clubs" are illegal weapons in TX and carrying one is the same as carrying a handgun without a carry permit. Carrying a flashlight is legal. However, once you start hitting someone with either one, it makes no difference from a legal standpoint which one you're using.

Deadly force MEANS force that would MOST LIKELY kill the person. ( not just MAY kill the person ) hence the usage of the word "deadly"

"Deadly Force" is usually defined in the statutes. In TX, it means: force that is intended or known by the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.

In TX, at least, the definition makes it clear that the weapon (specific method of application of deadly force) is irrelevant. It's also clear that the TX deadly force encompasses force which need not be capable of causing death. Even it if only causes serious bodily injury, TX law still considers it to be deadly force.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't even have to be CAPABLE of causing serious bodily injury as long as the actor INTENDS it to cause serious bodily injury. Examples of that would be if a person tried to poison another using a substance he incorrectly believed to be toxic or if a person tried to shoot someone with a gun that turned out to be inoperable or unloaded.

[Smokin Joe]

well, in texas, a steak is a deadly weapon...

Even it if only causes serious bodily injury

well, yeah, but whatever can cause such serious bodily injury, also can cause death.

I dont know of any action that causes only serious bodily injury that dosent carry a good chance at death as well...

Like.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't even have to be CAPABLE of causing serious bodily injury as long as the actor INTENDS it to cause serious bodily injury...

If I repeatly smash a "sponge bob square pants" stuffed plush toy over your head, while INTENDING to bash your brain in, ..... it isnt deadly force..... There is no way in high heaven that doing so would be deadly force... no waaaaayyyy..

[JohnKSa]

Sorry, I edited my post to add the last sentence after you replied.

[Smokin Joe]

Examples of that would be if a person tried to poison another using a substance he incorrectly believed to be toxic or if a person tried to shoot someone with a gun that turned out to be inoperable or unloaded.

that would be in the same boat as how if you use a FAKE GUN to commit a robbery it would still be as if you had used a real gun and etc....

Listen, I dont know, I wish I knew all the laws but I dont. I do know, that if I bash you in the head with a sponge bob stuffed toy, all the while shouting DIE YOU @#$%@$#% DIEEEEE !!!!! it wont be deadly physical force. I'd prob be sentenced to a mental facility.

[kennybs plbg]

There is a difference in NY. There is any force necessery short of deadly force to stop a crime and then there is deadly force. For NY being such a liberal state it is very clear where the line is drawn. The self defense laws are very much in favor of the citizens, giving them many rights in self defense and in stopping crime.

kenny b

[kennybs plbg]

Joe I'm surprised you don't know 35 by heart living in the state. I don't see how anyone could carry a firearm and not have it memorized, thats crazy.

kenny b

[Smokin Joe]

Joe I'm surprised you don't know 35 by heart living in the state.

"35 by heart" sounds like a country song.

I don't see how anyone could carry a firearm and not have it memorized, thats crazy.

well that makes perfect sense then. I dont carry.

[kennybs plbg]

"35 by heart" sounds like a country song.

Not really a country song but it might stop you from singing the blues someday.

Article 35 NYS Penal Code

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/structureny.htm

kenny b

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

If I repeatly smash a "sponge bob square pants" stuffed plush toy over your head, while INTENDING to bash your brain in, ..... it isnt deadly force..... There is no way in high heaven that doing so would be deadly force... no waaaaayyyy..

Now if you used Sponge Bob to smother someone, I guess it could be considered a deadly weapon. We could even increase the lethality of Sponge Bob by removing the original stuffing and filling it with rocks. That way, it could be used as a much more effective impact weapon!

[revjen45]

"One of the police was reported to have said he was justified in using force to protect his property. THAT, AS A GENERAL RULE, IS NOT TRUE. Only Louisiana has laws to that effect, and, it appears the judicial and police systems don't enforce the laws of Louisiana, except as they please."

Not quite correct- in TX you can use deadly force to protect property after dark. That doesn't necessarily make it a good idea because the Persecuting Shysters there abuse power as you describe happening in LA.

[Smokin Joe]

well about MR LEE, I went to philly ( see this chick ) she didnt know where the diner was, so oh well. If someone does go there, please send him kind words ( wherever the heck that place is )

[cochise]

I didn't see the calibar of the gun?
Head shot first shot, wow!

[Love&Hate12]

Good on the Police Captain, he's absolutley right, the man was just defending himself and his family from a piece of garbage.

As much as we here about how everything is going downhill for American firearm owners, it's good to see a story that reflects realism for once without any obnoxious slander.