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Old June 27, 2022, 04:45 PM   #26
Savvy_Jack
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Thanks guys, your replies are greatly appreciated!!!
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Old July 2, 2022, 10:37 AM   #27
Savvy_Jack
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Unclenick,

I know sometimes we get all caught up in pressures for factory loads and the ordeal they have to go through. I also tend to forget that what most of us here are trying to do is simply compare our handloads to factory loads, or even more, use this data to improve our handloads as much as we can.

How are these SAAMI "deviations" working out for those who publish handloads like Lyman and Hornady?

Not sure what I am asking here myself, but looking for your thoughts.
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Old July 5, 2022, 09:46 AM   #28
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The SAAMI system depends on the cross-calibration of pressures and velocities between manufacturers based on their reference ammunition method. SAAMI reference ammunition is made by a manufacturer assigned to the cartridge in question. A lot of ammunition is produced by that assignee with no particular pressure or velocity values except that they fall within the normal range. To establish it as a reference lot, samples are sent to various industry SAAMI members who have pressure guns and SAAMI standard pressure and velocity barrels for the cartridge in question. Copper crushers use copper slugs calibrated by tarage tables and transducers are calibrated hydraulically as described in the SAAMI standard. The participating facilities all equilibrate their guns and ammunition sample to standard temperature conditions and then fire ten rounds, handling each one by SAAMI's prescribed method to keep powder back over the flash hole.

The measurement results from the above are provided by the participating facilities on a standard reporting form. Unless a set of readings is too far different from those achieved by the other test facilities, it and all the readings from other participating facilities are averaged and the average results are declared to be the characteristic peak pressure and velocity produced by that lot of reference loads in a SAAMI standard pressure and velocity barrel. The lot is rechecked this way every two years to compensate for the effects of aging until the lot is consumed and a new lot has to be made.

The maximum pressure listed by SAAMI is called the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) and the name refers to the average peak pressure measured, and not to the average pressure as the bullet travels down the whole length of the barrel. When a test is done of some lot of ammunition or a test loading, the gun and ammunition under test and a sample of reference ammunition are equalized within a specific temperature range that is not quite as stringent as is used for evaluating reference loads. Ten rounds of reference ammunition are fired, and the resulting average pressure and velocity readings are divided into the pressure and velocity the reference ammo has been established to produce by the multiple facility testing. This results in a relative correction factor which is multiplied by all the subsequent readings taken from that test setup for any lot of ammunition or load samples being tested during that session. This is how the industry calibrates pressure readings to match what the other manufacturers would get.

So, for example, if you could get your hands on some current reference ammunition and you got it and some ammunition you were testing into the right temperature range, and you measured 10 shots of the reference ammunition on your Pressure Trace to average, say, 9,500 psi, but the lot said the pressure average was 10,200 psi by transducer, you would divide 10,200 by 9,500 and the result would be 1.07, and you would then multiply all your subsequent pressure readings by 1.07 to get industry standard psi. If the lot had a copper crusher rating of, say 11,900 CUP, you could also divide that by your 9,500 psi reading to get 1.25 and you could multiply all your Pressure Trace readings by that number to estimate what the copper crusher average would be, and this is probably the only way to get some idea how your load is comparing to old pressure readings done by copper crusher.

The only other detail is that SAAMI pressures are chosen by industry consensus. It is conceivable they have changed as guns have aged. Give SAAMI a call and ask if the first and oldest standard they had (from the 1930s) for the 44-40 can be looked up in their archives or if they know it to be the same as it always was.
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Old August 21, 2022, 12:07 PM   #29
Savvy_Jack
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I have acquired two different 44-40 Winchester manufactured "Proof" loads. One being from 1963 and one being from 1974. Each loaded with different powder and different velocity results. Unfortunately I was only able to pressure test the 1963 loads.

According to SAAMI, the 44-40 Proof loads should be Min Avg 17,5000cup to Max Avg 18,500cup. (other data excluded) (indecently 18,000cup to 23,500cup was the service pressures for the 44 Winchester High Velocity ammunition from 1903 to 1945 which achieved 1,564fps).

The 1963 Q4175 44-40 loads resulted in only 14,142cup (est.) and 1,401fps from a 20" barrel platform. Although I did not pressure test the 1974 D4440 loads but they only came in at 1,224fps fired from a 26" barrel from a rifle...(obviously not SAAMI spec. equipment).

This has been the greatest inconsistency in any 44-40 pressure test or test in general that I have come across.

Again I have more questions than answers.

Last edited by Savvy_Jack; August 21, 2022 at 02:06 PM.
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