The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 23, 2021, 01:00 PM   #76
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,981
I won't say it never happened, but generally speaking, I don't think even the CIA would booby trap OUR small arms ammo. Just too much possibility of it coming back to bite them with bad PR, at the least... Our Vietnamese allies used our ammo too...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 23, 2021, 01:29 PM   #77
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,732
I'm not saying its so...but our U.S. Armed Forces --- while serving in Vietnam -- could have possibly laid a booby trap underneath a crate of U.S. made ammo.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old December 23, 2021, 08:53 PM   #78
JustJake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2020
Posts: 399
Quote:
I keep landing on William Blake's line:

"All attempts at foolproofing are folly, for the genius of the fool is infinite"

ANY mechanical device can fail.

I don't doubt there were failures to extract among Custer's troops at the Little Big Horn.
At one time or another I'm sure some circumstance or error or negligence has resulted in a malfunction with every weapon in every military in the world.

The Garand has been mentioned. Remember this. In the Big Story, the guys carrying Garands won.

The guys carrying the M-16's and M-4 's have a pretty good win/loss record over the AK 47.

I'm not denying or excusing early M-16 issues. My respects to the troops.

Chairborne Idiots cut corners and screwed over troops in combat by making wrong decisions in the M-16 supply chain. Thats not an inherent M-16 or Eugene Stoner problem.
You also need Squad Leaders and Platoon Sergeants with attitudes and training about attention to detail. That includes "If a weapon needs to go to the Armorer,do it"

Lets not forget the early B-17's, P-38's .and P-51's had some issues to sort out. I've heard a stall or spin in a P-40 Warhawk was to be avoided if at all possible if you were under 10,000 feet. Then there were the welded Liberty Ships. Some broke in half and sunk. But,golly,they were building them fast!

What brought Victory?

Troops have an infinite capacity to gripe about something. Anything. And rumors,scuttlebutt, flies fast.

JustJake, I'm sure that I.too,would listen to every word of your Uncle's stories of 7.62 by 39 bullets whizzing past his ears.

And you know what? He was there and I was not. Enough said.

First of June 1968,my oldest brother was a Special Forces Medic in an A-camp a little southwest of Da Nang.
A couple of weeks before he arrived, his A-Team was located at Kham Duc.
There was a battle there that resulted in a relocation to Nong Son.
My brother served a Nong Son.

He has never told me of AK-47 bullets whizzing around his ears. None of those stories. As close as he ever came was describing the BAR belt he adapted to his web gear, holding 24 magazines for his M-16. Something about a few hundred linked 7.62. And his MAB P-15 9mm.

Proper load out for a medic. And he may have mentioned the CIDG tended head back home for coffee as an immediate action to contact.

Nope. His "War Stories" were more about playing with the Sea Bee dump truck and bulldozer . He told me they had a 4.2 in mortar,but pretty much white phosphorus for ammo. A 106 mm RR, and a minigun.
He'd make quite an event out of burning the trash..

But he never said anything about an M-16 failure.

I have another brother who served SOCOM...there is no scandal,but I just do not discuss his service. He is rather intimately familiar with the M-16/M-4.

I have the highest regard for our troops. Among any group that large you will find some who could cross thread an anvil ,and screw up a crowbar in a sandbox. They can screw up a WW2 steel pot helmet. Some of them.

Not dismissing the early M-16 issues and the troops who suffered them

A subtle psyops propaganda tactic is to undermine a troop's confidence in his weapon. No doubt some of that has occurred.

I'd bet heavy that for most M-16 failure stories, investigation would determine 1) Bad ammo or magazines or 2) Failure to clean and maintain equiptment.

In addition,for every person who complains about the M-16, you might find a percentage who have never used one in combat. But they do have an Uncle.

For every true Combat Veteran who has been let down by an M-16....Thats not good. But I'm thinking at least that many have been let down by the AK-47,and the Garand,and the M-14. Even the 1919 Browning, the M-60,and the M-2 50 cal can occasionally find a way to hang up.

For every disappointed troop with an M-16/M-4, I suppose you can find thousands who will testify "My M-4 always worked and it saved my butt"

I just vaguely recalled the Jessica Lynch story. Her convoy got lost and was ambushed. Allegedly,the weapons jammed up and they could not fight so well. Darn M-16's!! Hmmm. I also heard of pervasive sand/grit that got into everything. And the weapons were carried racked in the vehicles muzzle up. No muzzle covers in place. And the chambers were carried empty.

May we assume a light coat of oil,bore and chamber?

Yup. A coat of sand like a sugar dusted donut stuck inside the chamber.Don't forget the bolt face,locking lugs,etc.

Contact!! Our truck drivers suddenly turned 11 Bravo slam rounds into grit filled chambers and what happens?

Then,how might muzzle covers or a round in the chamber have made things different?

"The Genius of the fool is infinite"

Some place in the Chain of Command for Jessica Lynch and that convoy,maybe if some Sergeant Major or Ex O had made a point of ensuring training and SOP would maintain operational weapons in the trucks those weapons would not have malfunctioned.
Sometimes its not the M-16 M-4 that is the root cause.
Huh?

__________________
I use the Jake Brake every chance I get.
Don't care if it annoys you.
Hear me now?!
JustJake is offline  
Old December 23, 2021, 09:34 PM   #79
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,169
Quote:
AlongCameJones
Wow, you got a full stringer on that fishing trip.
davidsog is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 01:20 AM   #80
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,879
Quote:
Wow, you got a full stringer on that fishing trip.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 07:50 AM   #81
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
I'd bet heavy that for most M-16 failure stories, investigation would determine 1) Bad ammo or magazines or 2) Failure to clean and maintain equiptment.
I clean as a matter of habit and have spent a little time getting carbon off the back of bolts just because I want to see it clean.

It's part of the story of the AR that it was issued without cleaning kits because it was supposed to be self-cleaning. That line of the story is always delivered as if it is obviously false.

I don't own any revolvers partly because I hear that function suffers when they get dirty. 22lr is also grimey and some 22lrs will start to have problems with function once you are past your first brick.

The AR may not literally self clean, but a lot of the surfaces that need to be clean do scrape themselves clean in operation. I don't know how much baked on carbon is required to get an AR to choke; I've never gotten there. If I keep a bolt well oiled, clean up may be just wiping the dirty oil off (except for that bolt tail). It's kind of impressive.
zukiphile is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 11:01 AM   #82
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
I clean as a matter of habit and have spent a little time getting carbon off the back of bolts just because I want to see it clean.

It's part of the story of the AR that it was issued without cleaning kits because it was supposed to be self-cleaning. That line of the story is always delivered as if it is obviously false.

I don't own any revolvers partly because I hear that function suffers when they get dirty. 22lr is also grimey and some 22lrs will start to have problems with function once you are past your first brick.

The AR may not literally self clean, but a lot of the surfaces that need to be clean do scrape themselves clean in operation. I don't know how much baked on carbon is required to get an AR to choke; I've never gotten there. If I keep a bolt well oiled, clean up may be just wiping the dirty oil off (except for that bolt tail). It's kind of impressive.
I fired one of the first M16s delivered to the Army; very low serial number. It had a very odd twanging sound when I fired it, possibly caused by the buffer and or buffer spring. The manual did mention cleaning, but it gave the impression that it wasn't needed routinely. I believe one cleaning kit was issued per squad. That worked well right up to the point when the lowest bidder was awarded a contract for powder that burned dirty.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 11:22 AM   #83
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 7,907
Every M16 and AR with rifle stocks I’ve fired has twanged.
I don’t notice so much with carbine stocks.
I prefer rifle stocks over the carbine stocks... I even have a rifle stock and buffer tube on my carbines.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 11:56 AM   #84
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,338
They don't twang nearly as loud as an 1100 And the TWANG turning into a CHUNK when the bolt locks back is one of the many indicators that you have run dry.
Rob228 is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 04:04 PM   #85
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
Every M16 and AR with rifle stocks I’ve fired has twanged.
I don’t notice so much with carbine stocks.
I prefer rifle stocks over the carbine stocks... I even have a rifle stock and buffer tube on my carbines.
Not really; you'd have to shoot an early production to understand.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 04:11 PM   #86
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,981
BANGZOINNNGGG is the sound the shooter hears firing an AR. Large spring inside a metal tube enclosed in a hollow plastic stock (echo chamber) against your cheek.

Seems less with the collapsable stocks, because they don't have an echo chamber space.

You'll hear something similar with any firearm where the recoil spring is in the stock and the stock is against your face when you fire it.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 24, 2021, 05:13 PM   #87
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 7,907
Quote:
you'd have to shoot an early production to understand.
I’ve fired an XM16 that was in army inventory, but hey, I guess that doesn’t count.

I’ve always described it as “SPROING!” Lol
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 05:22 PM   #88
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
I’ve fired an XM16 that was in army inventory, but hey, I guess that doesn’t count.

I’ve always described it as “SPROING!” Lol
Counts in the contest of black rifles with five digit serial numbers. The one I fired was green with a three digit number.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 06:48 PM   #89
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 7,907
I don’t remember my phone number anymore, so I couldn’t tell you a serial number from ages ago.
I do remember asking why mine said XM16. Anyway, I don’t remember any different of a sproing from then than I do in my current rifles.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!
rickyrick is offline  
Old December 24, 2021, 11:21 PM   #90
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2,634
The buffer tube in an AR is indeed a feature different from most designs. Basically a damaged stock can render a rifle inoperable. I wonder whether it changed some practices. Is stock strike in close quarter fighting still recommended?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
tangolima is online now  
Old December 25, 2021, 01:47 PM   #91
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,981
I have no idea what is being taught today, or what level of advanced training is needed to be taught certain things, but I can tell you that in 1975 the US ARMY did not teach hand to hand combat with the rifle, or without in BASIC training. Nor did they teach the use of the bayonet.

When we asked why, the answer was "the ARMY, in its infinite wisdom, has determined that, should you meet an enemy soldier at hand to hand distance, the odds are huge that one of you will have ammunition. If that's you, shoot them. If its not, then you may officially report you are having a bad day..."

There are a number of rifle designs that are poorly suited for hand to hand combat. Nearly everything with a two piece stock is inferior to a solid one piece stocked rifle. Look at infantry rifles up through WWII. Nearly all are "overbuilt" and heavier than needed for a rifle. The reason is because they weren't JUST rifles, they were also impact weapons, designed and made to be used in hand to hand combat and survive that as still functional rifles.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 25, 2021, 02:02 PM   #92
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2,634
Hmm.. I saw pretty recent video showing marine recruits practicing bayonet charge on dummies. They had m16a2. They stabbed the dummies with bayonets, but I don't remember seeing them using the butt stocks.

-TL



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
tangolima is online now  
Old December 25, 2021, 04:30 PM   #93
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,338
Can't speak to the Army but the Marines are definitely teaching buttstrokes and bayonet work. The impact portion is supposed to be the corner of the buttplate right above the rear sling swivel, pretty good amount of meat on the stock there before it gets to the buffer tube, between enlisted boot camp and OCS/TBS I saw some pretty horrific things done to rifles in the name of "training" but can't recall a buttstock getting broken. I even saw an indigenous "special forces" solider from the country we we're in get laid out with an M-4 butt-stroke when he started acting a little too "off" at just the wrong time and the wrong place. No damage to the rifle there.
Rob228 is offline  
Old December 25, 2021, 05:26 PM   #94
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,981
there are many, many differences between Marine and Army training. Always has been. The nature of the Marine Corps' mission has always required a heavy emphasis on the individual combat abilities of each Marine, both armed and unarmed, more so than the other services in general.

When needs must, one uses whatever is at hand. Straight line force applied to the M16 buttstock is unlikely to break it. Off axis force, much more so, but its not a guarantee. And, if the rifle does break, its fairly easily replaced, usually.

Were I armed with an M16 series rifle, and out of ammo, forced to engage in bayonet to bayonet combat against someone armed with a WWII (or earlier) infantry rifle, I would consider myself at a disadvantage. Otherwise, not so much...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 25, 2021, 07:03 PM   #95
JustJake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2020
Posts: 399
Quote:
Were I armed with an M16 series rifle, and out of ammo, forced to engage in bayonet to bayonet combat against someone armed with a WWII (or earlier) infantry rifle, I would consider myself at a disadvantage. Otherwise, not so much.
Prevailing tactical doctrine teaches that when your primary fighting weapon goes down (typically, a rifle), you immediately transition to your secondary fighting weapon (typically, a pistol - but for some unfortunates that might be only an edged weapon, e.g., a dull rusty old Kabar. Good luck on that.)

Regardless, once that transition is made, ... well, you just get your little butt-ski back in the fight.
__________________
I use the Jake Brake every chance I get.
Don't care if it annoys you.
Hear me now?!
JustJake is offline  
Old December 26, 2021, 01:13 PM   #96
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 1,732
When mortaring an AR (because of a frozen action):

If you have a collapsible stock...try to make sure the stock is collapsed (not extended), or else you'll risk damaging or bending the buffer tube.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old December 26, 2021, 01:52 PM   #97
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 24,981
Quote:
When mortaring an AR (because of a frozen action):
While I realize that this is what the Internet is teaching people (and apparently so are some people who actually charge for their "instruction") I am opposed to this practice. Absent "gravest extreme" (meaning someone is actually shooting at you at the time) there is no need and little point.

Seems a bit oafish to me, if your gun isn't working right, bang it on the ground??? Especially one with a plastic stock??

Plus, the term "mortaring" is misleading, as mortars don't work by banging them on the ground...

There is a huge difference between something to try when your rifle fails and your life is in immediate jeopardy, and what you should to do deal with a malfunction when its not.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old December 26, 2021, 03:26 PM   #98
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 7,785
It seems to be a rite of passage for many.

Buy an AR-15,then decide to take up reloading.

Some folks learn or know how to set up a seater die properly. Others were just born with the knowledge how to......mess it up by screwing the die in to contact the shellholder. They collapse the shoulder,it swells up in diameter.

It gets very stuck in the AR chamber. So,we must discuss "mortaring",forward assist buttons,etc. AR-15 jam o matics, etc.

The best place to solve a problem like "mortaring" is upstream. Read the die setup instructions.

Imagine......never having the "frozen" AR-15 in the first place.

Learn how to set up the seater die. No,you don't screw it in till it contacts the shellholder.
HiBC is offline  
Old December 26, 2021, 05:58 PM   #99
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
There is a huge difference between something to try when your rifle fails and your life is in immediate jeopardy, and what you should to do deal with a malfunction when its not.
If you don't "mortar" an AR with a stuck case, how are you getting the case out?

I've locked back the bolt and put a cleaning rod down the muzzle of a 22lr, but 22lr extractors will let you pull the bolt back over the rim of a stuck case. When this has happened to me with an AR, the bolt wouldn't budge.
zukiphile is offline  
Old December 26, 2021, 07:41 PM   #100
JustJake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2020
Posts: 399
Quote:
It seems to be a rite of passage for many.
Buy an AR-15,then decide to take up reloading.
Some folks learn or know how to set up a seater die properly. Others were just born with the knowledge how to......mess it up by screwing the die in to contact the shellholder. They collapse the shoulder,it swells up in diameter.
It gets very stuck in the AR chamber. So,we must discuss "mortaring",forward assist buttons,etc. AR-15 jam o matics, etc.
The best place to solve a problem like "mortaring" is upstream.
Actually the best place 'to solve the problem' in the real world is to run modern, good quality Mil-spec factory ammo, not screwy home-brew reloads.

Yeah, you might still get a malf once in a while, but if you practice basic malf-clearing techniques, you'll be back to engaging bad guys faster than a hungry squirrel can chew into a nut.
__________________
I use the Jake Brake every chance I get.
Don't care if it annoys you.
Hear me now?!
JustJake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07393 seconds with 9 queries