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Old November 22, 2021, 07:51 PM   #1
AlongCameJones
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The AR rifle: the popular jammomatic

People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.

The only trouble is we have never had a nifty, light, compact service/tactical rifle/carbine with the toughness and relaibilty of an FN or AK chambered in 5.56 NATO/.233 as far as I know.

Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
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Old November 22, 2021, 07:58 PM   #2
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Nah, never had much issue with m16/M4 in the army, or with civilian ARs.

But there also is the Mini14...
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Old November 22, 2021, 09:06 PM   #3
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Own two ARs and have been issued at least 10 through the years. None of them were jam-omatics.

Well, one well worn one was, until the ejector spring was replaced. If its jamming its dirty (like, really really dirty) or broken. The average person isn't putting enough rounds down in a month of shooting to make an AR dirty enough with carbon to jam.
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Old November 22, 2021, 09:32 PM   #4
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Only jams I've ever experienced were from bad mags not the rifle.
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Old November 22, 2021, 10:18 PM   #5
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AR's I've experienced jamming problems with are ones that use "tricky" cartridges the rifle was never designed for to begin with. Two notable examples are the grendel and creedmoor, but generally that happens when I'm seating the bullets past the maximum COLs and clearance issues come into play. There are so many manufacturers of so many parts that it's easy to assume everyone is making everything to the same size tolerances--but there are often small size differences depending on material, finishes used etc. and that can result in something like the same bolt made by two different manufacturers not working the same way in one rifle. Same is true for magazines. I just built a piston AR for the first time and so far it has not had any failures to function properly--other than I had a heck of a time getting it to fit with a hand guard--I'll be watching it over time to see how it compares to DI.
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Old November 22, 2021, 10:21 PM   #6
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When I first put my Trash Panda Frankenrifle together, it had feeding issues, until I realized the issue was with my ever-so-slightly-out-of-spec reloading dies, not the rifle. Since I figured that out it has run reliably for a few thousand rounds so far. I also had a buddy who used to build ARs for a custom shop tell me, don't over clean them, it's a myth. So, I didn't and still don't. A couple of squirts of oil in the right spots keeps an AR running until Judgment Day.
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Old November 22, 2021, 11:29 PM   #7
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I had a Colt years ago, and more recently a Ruger AR. Both 100% reliable with any ammo I used. Maybe there was something wrong with mine
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Old November 23, 2021, 04:57 AM   #8
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I had a Colt years ago, and more recently a Ruger AR. Both 100% reliable with any ammo I used. Maybe there was something wrong with mine
No model is totally immune--a friend of mine bought a new Ruger AR and it jammed intermittently right out of the box, so it had to go back for a fix (he didn't want to mess with it).
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Old November 23, 2021, 05:19 AM   #9
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The gun,the magazines and the ammo are a system.
Gene Stoner delivered a rifle/ammo that worked.

Bean counter genius of the Dept of Defense took shortcuts.One error was substituting powder.The ammo was loaded with a filthy burning powder for the M-16. There were problems.

That got sorted out. An ammo problem is not a rifle problem.

With GI ammo or other clean burning ammo (As the military would supply) the AR/M-16/M-4 has proven itself.

But everybody and his brother in law is buyng or building from parts all manner of rifles with the "AR" label. Some not so good.

Then they go looking for cheap blasting ammo.

They buy laquer coated steel cased filthy powder loads and re-learn the lessons of the 1960's. Then whine about the rifle.
Why would countries that rely on AK-47 rifles produce ammo that runs beautifully in your AR?

"I wonder if I can make ammo for my AR with this can of Grandpa;s powder?

It looks about the same..."

Oh,and I need to gas up the Lambo...fill it up with reggiller . The cheapest.
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Old November 23, 2021, 06:34 AM   #10
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An ammo problem is not a rifle problem.
Until you pull the trigger and the rifle doesn't go bang.
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Old November 23, 2021, 07:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpanther
AR's I've experienced jamming problems with are ones that use "tricky" cartridges the rifle was never designed for to begin with.
I've only ever made my centerfire ARs in .223 and none with extreme gas systems (unless you count a light weight bolt and buffer with all weights removed). I can create a stoppage by turning the gas all the way down, or by shooting a bunch of steel followed by a brass cartridge, and I can create short stroking with very heavy buffers. I have had to go out of my way to induce any of those conditions. In normal configuration, the reliability has been very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlongCameJones
People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.

The only trouble is we have never had a nifty, light, compact service/tactical rifle/carbine with the toughness and relaibilty of an FN or AK chambered in 5.56 NATO/.233 as far as I know.

Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
Assault rifle "craze"?

Did the ARs you use jam a lot?

AKs were made in .223. Why didn't those displace ARs in the commercial market?
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Old November 23, 2021, 07:32 AM   #12
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"The AR rifle: the popular jammomatic". More internet BS.

I only litter with biodegradables. Go green.
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Old November 23, 2021, 07:37 AM   #13
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I've only ever made my centerfire ARs in .223 and none with extreme gas systems (unless you count a light weight bolt and buffer with all weights removed). I can create a stoppage by turning the gas all the way down, or by shooting a bunch of steel followed by a brass cartridge, and I can create short stroking with very heavy buffers. I have had to go out of my way to induce any of those conditions. In normal configuration, the reliability has been very good.
The AR is by far the most wildly popular rifle of any type, at least in the US. There are lots of reasons for that, but it's ease of assembly and adaptability to different cartridges and parts also widens the probability to malfunctions to some degree. Keep in mind I'm not saying it's inherently prone to malfunctions.
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Old November 23, 2021, 08:23 AM   #14
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We have a S&W and a Ruger. Neither one has jammed yet.
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Old November 23, 2021, 10:07 AM   #15
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[QUOTE Until you pull the trigger and the rifle doesn't go bang.][/QUOTE]

I disagree,because the remedy is not changing the gun. The remedy is changing to good ammo.

This may require changing the operator.

Ultimately.the root cause of most AR problems is OPERATOR.

If the OPERATOR decides he wants a cartridge or load or configuration other than what the Eugene Stoner design was balanced to, the window of reliable operation may very well get smaller.

IMO,its amazing the system is as flexible as it is.

I'll grant SR420 and crew have modded the M-14,

But generally the M-1 carbine,Garand,and M-14 ,while successful combat weapons, are not used to modify and reconfigure the way an AR is. Neither is the AK.

Thats not a put down on the Garand,M-14,etc.

Its just that most folks who shoot them understand correct ammo is important.

The AR attracts more morons. Thats not a rifle problem.
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Old November 23, 2021, 10:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stagpangther
...adaptability to different cartridges and parts...
Is amazing, but I'm don't exploit most of it. I've tried some experimental BCGs in 22lr, but I'm dealing with much lower pressures, and interest in new designs is limited by the CMMG BCG format dominating in that area.
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Old November 23, 2021, 10:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
CMMG BCG format dominating in that area.
Delayed unlock--so what (unless you're talking exclusively 22lr).
Quote:
I disagree,because the remedy is not changing the gun. The remedy is changing to good ammo.

This may require changing the operator.

Ultimately.the root cause of most AR problems is OPERATOR.

If the OPERATOR decides he wants a cartridge or load or configuration other than what the Eugene Stoner design was balanced to, the window of reliable operation may very well get smaller.
In the heat of the moment--regardless of "fault"--if the rifle don't go bang, odds are high the bullet is not exiting the muzzle. So it is a rifle problem until you zero in on the real cause.
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Old November 23, 2021, 12:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Delayed unlock--so what (unless you're talking exclusively 22lr).
I am. CMMG has evolved their 22lr BCG into something with a lot of virtues, but a vice that it doesn't control bolt velocity as well as it could. The bolt requires an iffy, ad hoc add-on for auto sears. It also doesn't use the AR buffer system; that receiver extension is space that could be used to improve function.

However their 22lr BCG is the VHS of 22lr AR systems. If you want readily available spare parts from a range of vendors, that's the way to go.
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Old November 23, 2021, 02:03 PM   #19
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In the heat of the moment--regardless of "fault"--if the rifle don't go bang, odds are high the bullet is not exiting the muzzle. So it is a rifle problem until you zero in on the real cause.
Thats a fairly common outlook. Alec Baldwin has a gun go "Bang" when he doesn't want it to, and there has to be some one or something that makes it not his fault.

Or someone builds an AR in an oddball config or uses crap ammo,and it does NOT go bang,and its that darn DI gas system or something.

Anything but the jerk behind the trigger.(OK, some "slack" is in order. A custom project in a non-standard cartrdge will likely require some R+D time.That comes with the territory. A mid length gas system might require a buffer change. But don't burn green box Chinese ammo and call the AR or DI a POS.)

Some folks just cannot bring themselves to own "I screwed up. I got that wrong"

Others can set ego aside and learn something.

If MY AR-15 goes "click" without going "bang" then I ,ME,This Guy, failed to clean.lube,and maintain my weapon,or I'm not policing my magazines,or I bought or loaded crap ammo.

The good news is,I have the power to correct those.

"My gun don't work" is lame and helpless.
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Old November 23, 2021, 02:13 PM   #20
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Well, the issues that I’ve had:
#1 I cheaped out on a complete BCG from a budget vendor.
#2 I bought a cheap recoil/buffer spring from eBay, when they sold such things.
#3 I bought a barrel (6.8)and didn’t research the correct gas port size for my configuration.

All of those were due to my own decisions.

I haven’t dabbled in oddball calibers enough to have those associated problems.


Every AR that I have put together with tried and true combinations have worked mostly flawless.
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Old November 23, 2021, 02:37 PM   #21
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"My gun don't work" is lame and helpless.
I never said it was the fault of the rifle--I said it was a problem if it doesn't fire.
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Old November 24, 2021, 08:47 AM   #22
Destructo6
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People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles
Not a direct gas-impingement system, contrary to popular among the uneducated. It is a gas piston system, using the bolt and carrier as such, placing forced inline with the center of the barrel/bolt/buffer.

I've run thousands of rounds though a M4a1 in filthy conditions without a single jam. That gun already had thousands of rounds through it and would have thousands of rounds through it after.

Shot lots of 3gun matches with home-built guns with narry a failure.

Not sure who is "still call them jammomatics." From what I can tell, folks that actually use them regularly, like them.
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Old November 24, 2021, 11:09 AM   #23
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The original post is based on an ill-informed perception.

A correctly-built AR is an extremely reliable and durable firearm:
https://bravocompanyusa.com/content/...vo_swat_10.pdf

In my experience, a quality AR (BCM,DD, LMT, etc.) and a quality AK (Izhmash Saiga, Arsenal) are practically identical in terms of reliability. Both designs require regular lubrication, and both are extremely durable. Both are suitably accurate for their intended uses.

Both have pros and cons. A modern AR is typically more corrosion-resistant, and being a more “sealed” system, is more resistant to the ingress of dirt and debris (see In-Range/Forgotten Weapons testing of the two systems, where the AR proves clearly superior in this respect). An AK is simpler and easier to maintain, with fewer small parts, and larger tolerances.

On the other hand, a low quality AR and a low quality AK are both junk by comparison. And low-quality magazines will make either design unreliable.

Last edited by Fishbed77; November 24, 2021 at 11:20 AM.
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Old November 24, 2021, 01:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbed77
The original post is based on an ill-informed perception.
I did not read it as the product of direct perception, but a repetition of gun show small talk, lacking only the "stock by Mattel" point.

In the 1990s, one of the importers (I don't recall which) had chinese AKs in .223. They had a reputation for running very poorly, likely as the result of a magazine problem. I gather that russian manufacturers have adapted AK74 lines to produce AKs in 223, but that magazines may still be an issue.

I only ever had an AK in 7.62. Great for what it was, $200 for the rifle and 1440 round crates of 1960s era ammunition for less than $100. No soda can was safe at 50 yards, it was easy to clean, only broke down into four or five parts, so I never lost anything.

The AR is a nicer, more ergonomic product that is readily adaptable to sports that require better than 4moa groups. Adjusted for inflation, one can make a reliable and accurate AR for the cost of AKs back then.

This would explain the "craze".
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Old November 24, 2021, 06:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by AlongCameJones View Post
People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.

The only trouble is we have never had a nifty, light, compact service/tactical rifle/carbine with the toughness and relaibilty of an FN or AK chambered in 5.56 NATO/.233 as far as I know.

Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
Lol.... Go ahead and read about the Filthy 14.

The "filthy 14" now has 67,500 rds with NO cleaning.

Doesn't sound like a jammomatic to me.

Link to the original article.... Google search will show the various updates.
https://slip2000.com/blogs/news/s-w-...zine-filthy-14
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