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Old January 18, 2022, 05:10 PM   #126
davidsog
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RD20 says:

I would like to know if your use of FA was before or after they fixed the powder issue, added the chrome lining and the various other mods and added cleaning kits that got the M16 reasonably reliable?
It was using a SOCOM M-4.

On a side note, The US Army never "fixed" the powder issue. They simply never adopted or used the powder the M16 was designed for and instead made the designer change the rifle to accommodate the powder they wanted to use.

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The committee recommended that the Army immediately conduct a thorough, honest test of the two kinds of ammunition, with the strong suggestion that it should switch to IMR 4475. That never happened. Instead of going back to the original powder, the ordnance corps modified the ball powder and changed the mechanical “buffer” of the rifle, which slowed down the cyclic rate. That solved part of the jamming problem, but did not restore the rifle’s original reliability or “lethality.” (The change in the barrel “twist” was also never corrected.) Through every day of combat in Vietnam, American troops fired cartridges filled with the ball powder that was the legacy of the ordnance corps. And if American troops were sent into battle today, they would use the same kind of ammunition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-story/545153/
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Old January 18, 2022, 05:24 PM   #127
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My Garand & my M1 Carbine don't need no stink'n forward assist!!
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Old January 18, 2022, 05:36 PM   #128
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I don’t think anyone is debating the military use of the forward assist, especially in the event of an especially dirty or negligent failure to perform routine maintenance.

My argument regards civilian use. In my opinion, if a civilian AR fails to fire, or doesn’t go into battery with the force of its own action...the civilian should investigate the issue before attempting to fire again.

I’ve seen a few videos where the repeated need of the forward assist was soon followed by a catastrophic failure.
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Old January 18, 2022, 06:35 PM   #129
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In my opinion, if a civilian AR fails to fire, or doesn’t go into battery with the force of its own action...the civilian should investigate the issue before attempting to fire again.
Sound reasoning. If you do not what you are doing....stop and put the rifle down.
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Old January 18, 2022, 06:51 PM   #130
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So you advocate continuing to fire a rifle that is clearly malfunctioning without investigating the cause? Sounds witless to me
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Old January 18, 2022, 07:50 PM   #131
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I’ve seen a few videos where the repeated need of the forward assist was soon followed by a catastrophic failure.
Really? I'd kinda like to see that (I trust you, I'd just like to see the process leading up to the failure), is there a vid on YouTube?
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Old January 18, 2022, 08:13 PM   #132
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My Garand & my M1 Carbine don't need no stink'n forward assist!!
Uhhh…its built in. Called the charging handle. All reciprocating bolt handles can be use as a F/A.
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Old January 18, 2022, 08:48 PM   #133
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RickyRick says:
So you advocate continuing to fire a rifle that is clearly malfunctioning without investigating the cause? Sounds witless to me
Ok, english is NOT my second language. In fact, my FAA pilots license even states emphatically, "English Proficient". How did you squeeze this meaning from the words I wrote?
I was agreeing with you..hence the expression, "SOUND REASONING." That means:

Free from defect, decay, or damage; in good condition:
a. Marked by or showing common sense and good judgment; levelheaded: a sound approach to the problem.
b. Based on valid reasoning; having no logical flaws: a sound conclusion; sound reasoning. See Synonyms at valid.
c. Logic Of or relating to an argument in which all the premises are true and the conclusion follows from the premises.
Thorough; complete:

If you still think I was arguing or disagreeing with you then I am not sure what the problem is but I am willing to bet it is difficult to pronounce.
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Old January 18, 2022, 09:05 PM   #134
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Davidsog, I could have misunderstood you. I apologize if so.

Stagpanther, I don’t have any links, but I do clearly recall one video of a young fellow doing mag dumps and it caught my attention because the rifle would have stoppages and he repeatedly hit the forward assist several times before it blew the magazine apart. I will see if I can find it again, it’s been a while.
YouTube ain’t what it used to be.
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Old January 18, 2022, 09:09 PM   #135
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https://youtu.be/tWygoxV_ApM

Language warning,
This is not the event I was thinking of but, repeated use of forward assist... the rifle clearly needed checked out before continuing.
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Old January 18, 2022, 09:13 PM   #136
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=xhgyJMhQFbA&feature=share

This guy almost tries again AFTER it blew up.

I can’t ascertain that this last guy actually used the forward assist, but it does illustrate the need to investigate a malfunctioning rifle.

We’ve all cleared jams. We’ve all fired again after a misfire. But at some point alarms should go off
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Last edited by rickyrick; January 18, 2022 at 09:19 PM.
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Old January 18, 2022, 09:27 PM   #137
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https://www.military.com/video/guns/.../1711073366001

Here’s an old one on actual video TAPE lol
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Old January 18, 2022, 11:08 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by std7mag View Post
My Garand & my M1 Carbine don't need no stink'n forward assist!!
I had followed an AR 15 podcast for a long time, till I heard the host said the exact same thing.

-TL

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Old January 19, 2022, 03:22 PM   #139
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My argument regards civilian use. In my opinion, if a civilian AR fails to fire, or doesn’t go into battery with the force of its own action...the civilian should investigate the issue before attempting to fire again.
Mis-using it is not the same as never needing it . I've NEVER excepted the idea of restricting something because stupid people will abuse it or use it inappropriately .

FWIW below is not a direct assault on the quote above . I'm using it as a stepping stone to my point below .

Although on topic I feel it's a bit off . My OP has Kyle Rittenhouse ( a civilian ) stating he needed to use the forward assist just one second before firing his rifle in self defense . If you can tap rack , inspect in less then one second then good for you , I couldn't . The video of KR firing his weapon at Hubber also shows Hubbers hand over the upper receiver covering the ejection port . This almost certainly slowed the BCG on extraction causing the failure to fully load the next round .

It's interesting to see people being given what appears to be 100% proof the forward assist can be helpful in a need to fire the weapon now moment and yet ignore that fact and keep on with what can only be described as a theory . I'll admit I had similar feelings but always thought better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it . However being faced with a what appears to be the fact it can and does work exactly as intended . I've changed my mind to the forward assist is a must have on this platform . It's not that I expect to use one but rather better be able to if need be as KR "NEEDED" to to save his life .
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Old January 19, 2022, 03:53 PM   #140
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I agree with that Metal god, but I am expressing opinions from my point of view that the AR is mainly a recreational rifle for most people. I don’t expect to ever be using one of my ARs as a defensive weapon. I especially don’t see myself carrying one openly on the streets.
However, if I were to use one in a defensive scenario, I’d consider the Forward Assist to be more important.
I always have a pistol on me, but rarely have an AR within arm’s reach.
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Old January 19, 2022, 04:04 PM   #141
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Metal god says:
Mis-using it is not the same as never needing it .
Exactly. In fact I would say a forward assist is a great feature to have on all military rifles. There is a reason why the IDF put one on the FN-FAL's they used. Anytime you are returning the weapon to battery without the ability to use the design force of the recoil/buffer spring or when the weapon is fouled, a Forward Assist is required to safely return the weapon to battery. Otherwise you risk have an out of battery malfunction when you go to fire the weapon.

A couple of video's of folks who lost situational awareness after experiencing a squib does not invalidate a Forward Assist. One reason we did not even refer to a squib round as a "squib" is because calling it a "pop and no kick" malfunction drives home exactly what you will experience in such a rare malfunction. The fact none of those shooters noticed the casing was empty when they ejected the round after experiencing a "pop and no kick" speaks volumes about their situational awareness. It is hard to fault them though as it is such a rare malfunction to experience. The bullet typically goes several inches down the barrel and is not stuck in the throat of the chamber so any claims of someone cramming one bullet upon another with a FA is highly unlikely.

The rifle functions perfectly without one. It was given one as a design improvement as a military firearm.
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Old January 19, 2022, 04:07 PM   #142
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rickyrick says:
Davidsog, I could have misunderstood you. I apologize if so.
No worries at all. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Old January 19, 2022, 04:07 PM   #143
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Here’s an old one on actual video TAPE lol
Definitely the best of the lot--thanks for that. Even I haven't managed to blow an AR in half. I've had a squib or two in handguns--but never in an AR. The previous vids seem to show that if your AR refuses to fire enough times--you can still convince it to if you jam the FA enough, I highly suspect even with the cartridge not properly in battery.
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Old January 19, 2022, 04:26 PM   #144
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stagpanther says:
The previous vids seem to show that if your AR refuses to fire enough times--you can still convince it to if you jam the FA enough,
The scenario of jamming an unsafe round into the chamber with the FA is kind of far fetched. Could it happen? Maybe but it is far from typical as most travel some distance and not very likely to obstruct the next bullet loaded in the chamber. It is what makes a pop and no kick malfunction so very dangerous Forward Assist or No Forward Assist.
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Old January 19, 2022, 04:57 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Metal god View Post
It's interesting to see people being given what appears to be 100% proof the forward assist can be helpful in a need to fire the weapon now moment and yet ignore that fact and keep on with what can only be described as a theory . I'll admit I had similar feelings but always thought better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it . However being faced with a what appears to be the fact it can and does work exactly as intended . I've changed my mind to the forward assist is a must have on this platform . It's not that I expect to use one but rather better be able to if need be as KR "NEEDED" to to save his life .
Back in 1986, a 9mm stopping just short of a suspect’s heart caused the deaths of two FBI agents… and made a multiple decade move to .40. If you use a similar argument as quoted above, we all should never consider the 9mm for carry because two agents were gunned down. Sorry, but I rather look at statistics/examples, and make my own decision.

How many agencies are now moving back to 9mm? Mine did, and is the largest Federal L/E agency in the US (CBP). But I’ve also been pretty standardized on 9mm since 2015.

There are no 100% proofs with things like this. Yes, it worked for Rittenhouse. Does that mean it will always work? Maybe… maybe not.

That being said, it is a piece of information to take in. Just like seeing a forward assist pawl breaking off and jamming up a 9mm blowback upper. I saw that, and when I built my 9mm AR pistol, using the same setup… I took notice.

Being my Stern Defense bolt didn’t have the cuts for the forward assist… I yanked it out and put a plug in (maybe in the future I’ll get a slick side upper and swap it… but not really a pressing issue right now). Literally was a given considering that. Am I going to die when I use it because there isn’t a forward assist? No… if I needed to close the bolt, there still is a cut on the carrier to push it forward (one that pops the ejection port door).

People can look at Rittenhouse’s situation… and make their own call on if it speaks to them/their gear. We are all adults and can make decisions. Likewise, we all pay for our guns… so, until someone starts paying for my guns, I’ll buy/build/shoot what I want.

Not to be an attack on you, Metal god, but it does get old to be told on the internet what is right/wrong. “This is the set of facts… and this is how I feel.” A lot easier to have a discussion with that stance.
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Old January 19, 2022, 05:50 PM   #146
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I still contend that the item that saved KR was his sling. Without whatever kind of sling he had, another would have had his gun instead of him.
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Old January 19, 2022, 06:35 PM   #147
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Six pages of FA since late November? Wow.
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Old January 19, 2022, 06:46 PM   #148
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I still contend that the item that saved KR was his sling.
I agree--I watched KR during his interview and the FA thing and it sounded like BS to me.
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Old January 19, 2022, 07:19 PM   #149
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We could likely find several things that would be considered life-saving in the totality of that incident . I did not mean this to claim that the forward assist was the be-all end-all of that night only a very important part . I too agree the sling was maybe the most important aspect of the night as far as life saving .

Quote:
--I watched KR during his interview and the FA thing and it sounded like BS to me.
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The reason I disagree with your assessment is based in part by Kyle’s interview but is more substantiated by testimony at trial . Both the prosecution and cage were claiming Kyle manipulated the rifle right before shooting cage. They said and or believed Kyle rack/charged the action . It would seem reasonable to believe that was him using the forward assist at the time rather than actually charging the firearm . It also explains why Cage stopped raised his hands then continue to charge towards Kyle . I believe cage thought the gun was jammed ( which it was in a way ) and thought he had a second or two to get to the gun . He would have if Kyle needed to eject a round and charge the next round as many here think would have been best . Thankfully he didn’t , he only needed to tap the forward assist to make the gun fully functional again . I think that’s my whole point here not only did Kyle say he needed it , the evidence and video seemed indicate what he is saying is accurate . It seems as factual a statement can be based on the evidence we have .
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Old January 21, 2022, 05:49 PM   #150
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In the dark, on his butt split second decision with the gun held forward at a 90 degree angle--nope--not a chance in heck he's gong to see where the carrier is relative to the ejection port IMO. Water over the dam--but I still don't believe what he says.
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