Rem 870 or Win 1300 Defender

dubl_tap · September 25, 2000, 10:09 AM

First post on this site; great information gathered thus far, but I would like to pose this question to all the fellow shooters out there in order to assist me in my research.

I have read (on this post as well as mag articles, and the ever popular "word of mouth" HUMINT) all the positive remarks other shooters have on the Rem 870 family.

I would like to gather some opinions of this shotgun as compared to the Win 1300 "Defender". All comments (pro/con) are welcome and appreciated.

I am interested specifically in the aspect of longevity, durability, quality, performance, QC issues, tactical application, accessories, replacement parts, etc...

Thanks again...

------------------
"Only easy day was yesterday"

Dave McC · September 25, 2000, 11:10 AM

I've nothing against the 1300,or any other recent Winchester, nor the very old like the 12 and 97. However...

The 870 has racked up an unequalled and nigh unchallenged record for durability, longevity and performance. With 6 Million made, it just may be the most units for any non military arm.

My HD 870 was one of the first made, Pop bought it used around 1956. After thousands of rounds, still tight as a bank vault, but smooth stroking. Obviously, I'm willing to stake my life on it.

Police and Correctional agencies use it because of its ability to tolerate abuse and rough conditions, and to keep working.

QC has varied SLIGHTLY over the years, but all 870s are good shotguns. Never ran across a real lemon, yet. Haven't seen any worn out, either...

DaMan · September 25, 2000, 12:39 PM

dubl_tap, it sounds like you are looking for a good defensive type shotgun. My vote would be for the Rem. 870. The Win. 1300 Defender is a decent gun, but there's not a smoother operating and more durable pump than the Rem. 870 (except for maybe the old Win. model 12).

I'd recommend getting the 3" Mag Rem. 870. Not because I use a lot of 3" shells, but because the receiver is "beefier" than the 2 3/4" model.

Whatever you do, DO NOT buy one of the pistol gripped Defenders (or any other pistol gripped defence shotgun)!

Regards! DaMan

Coronach · September 25, 2000, 12:55 PM

Well, in general, its pretty much a toss-up, when you talk mossberg/870/winchester. They cost similar amounts, their general performance is similar, QC varies a little, and durability varies a little more.

If you're looking for durable, go with the 870. If a police officer can't break it, no one can.

Mike

------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

jadams951 · September 25, 2000, 01:09 PM

Well for the past two years I carried a Winchesterd 1300 Defender in the patrol car on duty. While I only put about 200 shells through that Winchester I never once had a problem with it. Mine always shot where I wanted it to go and one of the most important things it shot without malfunction. I did recently trade that in and upgrade to a Remington 870 Marine Magnum. My personal opinion is as good as the Winchester served me the Remington seems to have a bit heavier duty internal parts and that stainless finish on the marine magnum is tough as can be. Just my .02 cents

dubl_tap · September 25, 2000, 05:42 PM

Thanks DaMan for yor reply. I have a question though. Why are you against a pistol grip shotgun?

Thanks again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaMan:
dubl_tap, it sounds like you are looking for a good defensive type shotgun....

Whatever you do, DO NOT buy one of the pistol gripped Defenders (or any other pistol gripped defence shotgun)!

Regards! DaMan [/quote]

------------------
"Only easy day was yesterday"

DaMan · September 25, 2000, 06:35 PM

First off, let me make it perfectly clear, I'm talking about the pistol grip only arrangement. Not not the shotguns that have a buttstock and a pistol grip.

Without a buttstock, the pump shotgun is an incredibly slow, clumsy, ill-balanced, inaccurate hunk of metal. Looks cool in the movies, but they aren't worth a damn in actual use. They don't even give an advantage in close quarters.

If you know someone who has one, ask to put about 5 rounds through it at either stationary or moving targets. You will not want one. They are next to worthless.

Regards! DaMan

CD1 · September 25, 2000, 06:59 PM

DaMan is on DaMoney with that one. Commonly called "riot guns", a shotgun with no stock, just a pistol grip. Couldn't agree more.

pawcatch · September 25, 2000, 07:04 PM

Between those two the remington but don't count the mossberg out.I believe it's the most reliable shotgun out there.

Dave McC · September 26, 2000, 05:05 AM

RE PG only shotguns....

My agency had some folding stock 870s for use in rapid response vehicles back in the early 80s. We had to qualify with them shooting with the stock folded and from the hip. As an instructor, I had to qualify at 90% or better, I did, but it took some work. Many of the troops had trouble qualifying with the folders,some found it impossible.

HD and Police shotguns are aimed, not pointed. No stock, aiming becomes very difficult.

Try this, set up 5 silohuette targets between 10 or 15 and 25 yards. At a signal, fire one round of serious ammo on each, using both a PG only shotgun and the same one with a stock as God intended(G).Shoot for score and time. If your scores aren't significantly better with the standard stock, the first pitcher's on me.

Al Thompson · September 26, 2000, 06:13 AM

I suspect the difference in the Rem/Win/Mossy is pretty small. I've owned everything except the Mossberg (several friends have'em) and really think that any will do for the majority of us. If your a person that shoots a lot (3 gun competitor or skeet/trap) the 870 is (IMHO) the one that will function the longest. How much longer? YMMV

The biggest difference for me is that the 870 has absolutly the best selection of aftermarket accessories. Very similar to a Harley or 1911 or Rem 700. If your a box stock type, not a factor.

Giz

Skorzeny · September 26, 2000, 10:53 PM

I think that Marine Magnum (Rem 870) finish is electroless nickel, not stainless.

I personally have a Remington 870. I considered purchasing a Winchester 1300 for a long time. Here were my pro's and con's:

Rem 870:

Pro: reliable, sturdy and smooth operation.
Con: heavy weight; politically correct features on civilian models that require WORK to fit "law enforcement" accessories.

Win 1300:

Pro: extremely quick cycling (due to the assisted slide mechanism); excellent set-up for home defense in stock configuration (Defender model) including built-in extended magazine; light weight.
Con: not as sturdy as Rem 870; fewer accessories; higher return rate (defective).

Hope that helps.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

Oleg Volk · September 26, 2000, 10:54 PM

I picked for ergonomics and ended up with a 20ga 1300 over a 20ga 870. Reasons: better-positioned slide release (less likely to cause an AD from the finger slipping), smoother cycling (IMO) and the gun came with a truglo sight+sling swivels installed which meant less trouble for me. Further, the mag holds 7 without the need for gunsmithing an extension.

870 may turn out to be more durable in the long run, but a synthetic 1300 isn't bad.

------------------
Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://www.a-human-right.com
http://www.olegvolk.net

Skorzeny · September 27, 2000, 03:27 AM

Actually, I considered purchasing a 20 gauge Win 1300 Defender very seriously.

I went with a Rem 870 Express in 20 gauge and had the barrel and stock cut to fit my wife better.

In retrospect, Win 1300 Defender in 20 gauge probably would've been cheaper. And, as Mr. Volk points out, it has nifty features missing in the Rem 870 (stock tru-glow bead, stock 7-shot magazine).

Unfortunately for me, there does not seem to be many accessories for a 20 gauge Rem 870.

I am considering trading up to a Rem 1100 LT-20, Rem 11-87 Police or Rem 870 Marine Magnum (12 gauge). However, my wife does not seem to be too interested right now for a new shotgun (we've got a new Romanian SAR-1), so I'll have to wait.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

DaMan · September 27, 2000, 11:10 AM

Skorzeny, if you go to the Rem. 1100, get it in 12 bore. The gas operated 1100 is a real pussycat (recoil wise).

It's easier to find accessories for the 12 ga than the 20 ga.

Regards! DaMan

jtduncan · September 29, 2000, 01:36 PM

I'd look for a Rem 870 Express Combo. Two barrels, one 20" for deer or HD with rifle sights, and a 26/28" barrel for hunting.

------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG

dubl_tap · October 1, 2000, 01:11 AM

Thnaks to all for your advice. I came back this afternoon from a gun show sponsored by SunCoast and walked away with a new Rem 11-87 Police model. Can't wait to take it out for a little break in "training".

Thanks again.

Dave McC · October 1, 2000, 09:50 AM

Enjoy, DT. The next thing you buy should be ammo, lots of it. After shooting up a case or ten, you and that 11-87 will be a great team...

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September 25, 2000, 10:09 AM	#1
dubl_tap Junior Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 3	First post on this site; great information gathered thus far, but I would like to pose this question to all the fellow shooters out there in order to assist me in my research. I have read (on this post as well as mag articles, and the ever popular "word of mouth" HUMINT) all the positive remarks other shooters have on the Rem 870 family. I would like to gather some opinions of this shotgun as compared to the Win 1300 "Defender". All comments (pro/con) are welcome and appreciated. I am interested specifically in the aspect of longevity, durability, quality, performance, QC issues, tactical application, accessories, replacement parts, etc... Thanks again... ------------------ "Only easy day was yesterday"

September 25, 2000, 11:10 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've nothing against the 1300,or any other recent Winchester, nor the very old like the 12 and 97. However... The 870 has racked up an unequalled and nigh unchallenged record for durability, longevity and performance. With 6 Million made, it just may be the most units for any non military arm. My HD 870 was one of the first made, Pop bought it used around 1956. After thousands of rounds, still tight as a bank vault, but smooth stroking. Obviously, I'm willing to stake my life on it. Police and Correctional agencies use it because of its ability to tolerate abuse and rough conditions, and to keep working. QC has varied SLIGHTLY over the years, but all 870s are good shotguns. Never ran across a real lemon, yet. Haven't seen any worn out, either...

September 25, 2000, 12:39 PM	#3
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	dubl_tap, it sounds like you are looking for a good defensive type shotgun. My vote would be for the Rem. 870. The Win. 1300 Defender is a decent gun, but there's not a smoother operating and more durable pump than the Rem. 870 (except for maybe the old Win. model 12). I'd recommend getting the 3" Mag Rem. 870. Not because I use a lot of 3" shells, but because the receiver is "beefier" than the 2 3/4" model. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy one of the pistol gripped Defenders (or any other pistol gripped defence shotgun)! Regards! DaMan

September 25, 2000, 12:55 PM	#4
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Well, in general, its pretty much a toss-up, when you talk mossberg/870/winchester. They cost similar amounts, their general performance is similar, QC varies a little, and durability varies a little more. If you're looking for durable, go with the 870. If a police officer can't break it, no one can. Mike ------------------ "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

September 25, 2000, 01:09 PM	#5
jadams951 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas USA Posts: 295	Well for the past two years I carried a Winchesterd 1300 Defender in the patrol car on duty. While I only put about 200 shells through that Winchester I never once had a problem with it. Mine always shot where I wanted it to go and one of the most important things it shot without malfunction. I did recently trade that in and upgrade to a Remington 870 Marine Magnum. My personal opinion is as good as the Winchester served me the Remington seems to have a bit heavier duty internal parts and that stainless finish on the marine magnum is tough as can be. Just my .02 cents

September 25, 2000, 05:42 PM	#6
dubl_tap Junior Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 3	Thanks DaMan for yor reply. I have a question though. Why are you against a pistol grip shotgun? Thanks again. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaMan: dubl_tap, it sounds like you are looking for a good defensive type shotgun.... Whatever you do, DO NOT buy one of the pistol gripped Defenders (or any other pistol gripped defence shotgun)! Regards! DaMan [/quote] ------------------ "Only easy day was yesterday"

September 25, 2000, 06:35 PM	#7
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	First off, let me make it perfectly clear, I'm talking about the pistol grip only arrangement. Not not the shotguns that have a buttstock and a pistol grip. Without a buttstock, the pump shotgun is an incredibly slow, clumsy, ill-balanced, inaccurate hunk of metal. Looks cool in the movies, but they aren't worth a damn in actual use. They don't even give an advantage in close quarters. If you know someone who has one, ask to put about 5 rounds through it at either stationary or moving targets. You will not want one. They are next to worthless. Regards! DaMan

September 25, 2000, 06:59 PM	#8
CD1 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2000 Posts: 320	DaMan is on DaMoney with that one. Commonly called "riot guns", a shotgun with no stock, just a pistol grip. Couldn't agree more.

September 25, 2000, 07:04 PM	#9
pawcatch Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2000 Location: South East Posts: 332	Between those two the remington but don't count the mossberg out.I believe it's the most reliable shotgun out there.

September 26, 2000, 05:05 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	RE PG only shotguns.... My agency had some folding stock 870s for use in rapid response vehicles back in the early 80s. We had to qualify with them shooting with the stock folded and from the hip. As an instructor, I had to qualify at 90% or better, I did, but it took some work. Many of the troops had trouble qualifying with the folders,some found it impossible. HD and Police shotguns are aimed, not pointed. No stock, aiming becomes very difficult. Try this, set up 5 silohuette targets between 10 or 15 and 25 yards. At a signal, fire one round of serious ammo on each, using both a PG only shotgun and the same one with a stock as God intended(G).Shoot for score and time. If your scores aren't significantly better with the standard stock, the first pitcher's on me.

September 26, 2000, 06:13 AM	#11
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	I suspect the difference in the Rem/Win/Mossy is pretty small. I've owned everything except the Mossberg (several friends have'em) and really think that any will do for the majority of us. If your a person that shoots a lot (3 gun competitor or skeet/trap) the 870 is (IMHO) the one that will function the longest. How much longer? YMMV The biggest difference for me is that the 870 has absolutly the best selection of aftermarket accessories. Very similar to a Harley or 1911 or Rem 700. If your a box stock type, not a factor. Giz

September 26, 2000, 10:53 PM	#12
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	I think that Marine Magnum (Rem 870) finish is electroless nickel, not stainless. I personally have a Remington 870. I considered purchasing a Winchester 1300 for a long time. Here were my pro's and con's: Rem 870: Pro: reliable, sturdy and smooth operation. Con: heavy weight; politically correct features on civilian models that require WORK to fit "law enforcement" accessories. Win 1300: Pro: extremely quick cycling (due to the assisted slide mechanism); excellent set-up for home defense in stock configuration (Defender model) including built-in extended magazine; light weight. Con: not as sturdy as Rem 870; fewer accessories; higher return rate (defective). Hope that helps. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

September 26, 2000, 10:54 PM	#13
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I picked for ergonomics and ended up with a 20ga 1300 over a 20ga 870. Reasons: better-positioned slide release (less likely to cause an AD from the finger slipping), smoother cycling (IMO) and the gun came with a truglo sight+sling swivels installed which meant less trouble for me. Further, the mag holds 7 without the need for gunsmithing an extension. 870 may turn out to be more durable in the long run, but a synthetic 1300 isn't bad. ------------------ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk http://www.a-human-right.com http://www.olegvolk.net

September 27, 2000, 03:27 AM	#14
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Actually, I considered purchasing a 20 gauge Win 1300 Defender very seriously. I went with a Rem 870 Express in 20 gauge and had the barrel and stock cut to fit my wife better. In retrospect, Win 1300 Defender in 20 gauge probably would've been cheaper. And, as Mr. Volk points out, it has nifty features missing in the Rem 870 (stock tru-glow bead, stock 7-shot magazine). Unfortunately for me, there does not seem to be many accessories for a 20 gauge Rem 870. I am considering trading up to a Rem 1100 LT-20, Rem 11-87 Police or Rem 870 Marine Magnum (12 gauge). However, my wife does not seem to be too interested right now for a new shotgun (we've got a new Romanian SAR-1), so I'll have to wait. Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

September 27, 2000, 11:10 AM	#15
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	Skorzeny, if you go to the Rem. 1100, get it in 12 bore. The gas operated 1100 is a real pussycat (recoil wise). It's easier to find accessories for the 12 ga than the 20 ga. Regards! DaMan

September 29, 2000, 01:36 PM	#16
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	I'd look for a Rem 870 Express Combo. Two barrels, one 20" for deer or HD with rifle sights, and a 26/28" barrel for hunting. ------------------ *The Seattle SharpShooter* - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG

October 1, 2000, 01:11 AM	#17
dubl_tap Junior Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Posts: 3	Thnaks to all for your advice. I came back this afternoon from a gun show sponsored by SunCoast and walked away with a new Rem 11-87 Police model. Can't wait to take it out for a little break in "training". Thanks again.

October 1, 2000, 09:50 AM	#18
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Enjoy, DT. The next thing you buy should be ammo, lots of it. After shooting up a case or ten, you and that 11-87 will be a great team...