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Old May 20, 2018, 05:16 AM   #51
Hal
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Maybe high school students that have hunters safety training should be allowed to carry a cased long gun to school with there bullets in there pocket the cased gun is never to be opened unless there is a active shooter . I would hope they would never have to take there rifle out of the case . They could make hiding in a class room a little safer .
My initial reation to that was extremely negative.....extremely....then...
I thought about all the 16 and 17 year olds, that lied about their age & joined the armed forces & served in combat.
Maybe that idea isn't some sort of "moral violation"...
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Old May 20, 2018, 09:03 AM   #52
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Everyone focuses on recent school shootings in the U.S, as if school shootings is uniquely a U.S. phenomenon, and as if it never happened before Columbine.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.3999463

Here we see that it was a reality in Germany as far back as 1913. Guns were used, but insanity was also a factor. And then take particular note of the second case: the assailant used a home-built flame thrower. This just helps to demonstrate that, as L2R mentioned above, it's never just one factor. And that's the problem with making it all about guns. Guns are only the tool of choice, they are not the cause. Remove the guns, and crazy (or evil) people who want to attack schools and kill children will just use other weapons, such as pipe bombs, pressure cookers, propane tanks (Columbine), ... or flame throwers.

I just read another article mentioning that the Texas shooter was bullied. This article also reported that the school system denied that it happened. My high school denied that my daughter was bulled, too. I do not believe these automatic, knee-jerk denials. Bullying is a common factor in many school shootings, but the school systems involved always deny that it happened. They have zero credibility on this topic, IMHO.
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Old May 20, 2018, 09:19 AM   #53
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I think the best thing to do is train teachers to identify these students and engage them before hand; talk to their parents, sit down and talk with the student.

It's always a surprise when someone kills themselves, and it's always a surprise when a school shooting happens. I think it is partially because no one is paying attention. Maybe teachers should get involved and talk to the lonely kid in the back of the class who never talks and no one ever talks to, perhaps make some suggestions to them, and see whats going on at home as well.

Maybe this isn't the only thing that needs to happen to alleviate the problem, but it does need to happen. Kids see their teachers as much as if not more than their family's, so teachers are in a good position to take the initiative.
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Old May 20, 2018, 10:05 AM   #54
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IMO, the real reason for the school massacre is:

The Texas school shooter was recently rejected by a female classmate he had pursued for four months. Finally the girl confronted the shooter in class.

Boys with fragile egos, don't like to be rejected by girls, especially in public.



Quote:
One of Pagourtzis' classmates who died in the attack, Shana Fisher, "had 4 months of problems from this boy," her mother, Sadie Rodriguez, wrote in a private message to the Los Angeles Times on Facebook. "He kept making advances on her and she repeatedly told him no."

Pagourtzis continued to get more aggressive, and she finally stood up to him and embarrassed him in class, Rodriguez said. "A week later he opens fire on everyone he didn't like," she wrote. "Shana being the first one." Rodriguez didn't say how she knew her daughter was the first victim.

The gunman repeatedly taunted students during the attack, according to another harrowing account posted to Facebook by one survivor's mother.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...519-story.html
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Old May 20, 2018, 10:08 AM   #55
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Yep, no coincidence that he started there.

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Everyone focuses on recent school shootings in the U.S, as if school shootings is uniquely a U.S. phenomenon, and as if it never happened before Columbine.
No, they don't focus on US school shootings as if it didn't ever happen elsewhere. They focus on US school shootings because they keep happening over and over and over again, several times a year.
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Old May 20, 2018, 11:43 AM   #56
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I have no easy answer to the dire problem of massacres...school related or otherwise. Yet I happen to agree with the late Aldous Huxley --- "To allow the steam to be let off without doing damage to society or individuals."

How you go about resolving that problem...is still up in the air, but I fear that society is getting used to these school massacres --- should they dreadfully happen to occur again -- so much that it it will resemble a so-called "ho-hum" attitude by the majority of the general public; much like the reaction to the murders that occur in our inner cities.
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Old May 20, 2018, 12:22 PM   #57
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I think the best thing to do is train teachers to identify these students and engage them before hand; talk to their parents, sit down and talk with the student.
I think this will involve a lot of time, effort and money for no actual benefit. Besides adding yet another thing we are expecting our teachers to do, think for a moment about what good does talking do??? And what about the negative impact on individuals, families, the teachers themselves, and the school system from "false positives". And don't forget that there will be people (and school administrators) who will take things to really stupid extremes, and feel perfectly correct and justified doing so.

When a child gets suspended for eating a pop-tart into the shape of a pistol, are you really confident in trusting the judgement of the administrators responsible??

while the false positives are bad, the false negatives are even worse, in that they don't see (or stop) the problem. Not too long ago there was a case where the family was worried, and called the cops. Cops came, talked to the young man in question for a couple hours (health & safety check), then left, declaring him to be no threat. He was calm, lucid, and rational, didn't seem to be depressed, or have anger issues, etc. They went by the book, and the guy passed with flying colors.

The NEXT DAY, that guy killed half a dozen people....

False negative.

Here's one that I have personal knowledge of, happened back when my kids were still in high school (which makes it over 20 YEARS ago, now...)

One of their classmates wrote a story, as an assignment in creative writing.
What the kid wrote about was a school shooting. A fiction story, per his assignment. Set in his school. (the assignment was to write the story, the choice of subject, and everything else was the writer's.)

The Teacher freaked. The School, freaked (and went into lockdown for a few hours), the cops, freaked, went to the kids house, took all his Dad's guns. AND his dad's computer.

After some time (and investigation, which took some days) it was decided that there was no actual threat. Took a few weeks more to get the seized property returned. I don't know if the family sued, or not, but I think there would have been grounds for that, though actually winning a judgement was problematical...
False positive

Quote:
We, as a nation, need to start getting serious about stopping bullying.
Like we got serious with the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on poverty, and war on (insert any and every other social injustice here)????

Quote:
Bullies have been around since the beginning of time
There you go. The strong prey on the weak. it is a factor in natural selection, and you aren't going to change that. The point of educating our children is to learn the difference between what one can do, and what one should do. Some, just don't learn that, because for them, bullying others, works...until it doesn't, IF that ever happens.

Quote:
IMO, the real reason for the school massacre is:

The Texas school shooter was recently rejected by a female classmate he had pursued for four months.
I think you're overthinking this a bit. The real reason for this, and all the other mass murders is that the killer WANTED TO DO IT, could do it, and did it.

WHY the killer wanted to do it is an intellectual exercise, but I think we delude ourselves thinking that knowing why one killer did it will, in any way, allow us to identify and stop another before they kill. People are NOT uniform, and identical in their thoughts and actions.

I'm sorry the poor lad had his heart broken, ego crushed, was humiliated in public when a girl turned him down, but thousands (tens of thousands??) go through that every single day, and they don't take some guns and go murder people on Valentine's Day to make a point...


Quote:
Maybe high school students that have hunters safety training should be allowed to carry a cased long gun to school with there bullets in there pocket the cased gun is never to be opened unless there is a active shooter .
Maybe, but I think this is a singularly BAD idea.

If the downsides aren't obvious, you need to think about it a little more. I'll give you just two, to get you started... cops looking for a kid with a gun, and killing that armed kid who was only being a "defender". Another one, an armed "defender" shooting another armed defender, because no one knows who the actual killer is...

no, I don't see that as a good thing, at all...
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Old May 20, 2018, 12:25 PM   #58
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This morning I read that the shooter remained active, but not shooting continuously, for 30 minutes before being stopped by law enforcement. Think about that, 30 minutes. Its almost a miracle that only 10 were killed.

But I do not expect school officials around the nation to think rationally about this. How can you expect rationality from schools that become hysterical when a kindergarten student makes a "gun" shape with his fingers? When finding an empty 22LR shell case, not a cartridge, results in the SWAT team being called in and the school locked down? When those in charge of school districts argue that it not just OK, but praiseworthy when a boy says he demands the right to use the girls restroom?

Facts and common sense will not prevail. One of my own grown children openly proclaims that she intensely dislikes guns, that guns are, in her mind, a risk to her children, and that she does not want guns anywhere near them. She vehemently opposes arming teachers. She does not want her children's schools to appear like a prison with metal detectors and armed guards. When I ask her how that will protect my grandchildren when a madman or evil person with intent and arms enters their school? Her answer is, "make all guns illegal". When I ask her if she really thinks that would stop criminals, terrorists or others from obtaining or making firearms, she just says "I hate guns, they should all be outlawed". Sigh.
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Old May 20, 2018, 12:42 PM   #59
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I think this will involve a lot of time, effort and money for no actual benefit. Besides adding yet another thing we are expecting our teachers to do, think for a moment about what good does talking do??? And what about the negative impact on individuals, families, the teachers themselves, and the school system from "false positives". And don't forget that there will be people (and school administrators) who will take things to really stupid extremes, and feel perfectly correct and justified doing so.

When a child gets suspended for eating a pop-tart into the shape of a pistol, are you really confident in trusting the judgement of the administrators responsible??
+a million
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Old May 20, 2018, 12:45 PM   #60
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This morning I read that the shooter remained active, but not shooting continuously, for 30 minutes before being stopped by law enforcement. Think about that, 30 minutes. Its almost a miracle that only 10 were killed.
i have trouble understanding that.

Quote:
Dmitrios Pagourtzis fired again through the wooden part of the door and fatally hit a student in the chest. He then lingered for about 30 minutes in a warren of four rooms, killing seven more students and two teachers before exchanging gunfire with police and surrendering, officials said.

.......................................................................................................




Quote:
Authorities have offered no motive, but they said in a probable-cause affidavit that the suspect had admitted to carrying out the shooting.


The gunman told police that when he opened fire, he avoided shooting students he liked "so he could have his story told," the affidavit said

http://www.startribune.com/texas-stu...g/483104981/#1

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Old May 20, 2018, 01:02 PM   #61
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In my day-50 years ago-we had the guns. We didn't have the drugs, and it seems "the authorities" were quicker to intervene. Plus families. And back in that somewhat more genteel age people understood what "No" meant.
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Old May 20, 2018, 02:31 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Quote:
We, as a nation, need to start getting serious about stopping bullying.
Like we got serious with the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on poverty, and war on (insert any and every other social injustice here)????

Quote:
Bullies have been around since the beginning of time
There you go. The strong prey on the weak. it is a factor in natural selection, and you aren't going to change that. The point of educating our children is to learn the difference between what one can do, and what one should do. Some, just don't learn that, because for them, bullying others, works...until it doesn't, IF that ever happens.
When I went through grammar school and high school, there was some bullying. I was subjected to it a time or three. In those days, though, fighting wasn't allowed but if a fight happened, the victim wasn't punished as severely as the attacker. We were allowed to defend ourselves.

Toady? Not only are young people not taught to defend themselves, they are actually taught that it's NOT okay to defend themselves. That creates an environment where abuse piles up and escalates. Sooner or later, something as to pop.

Case in point.
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Old May 20, 2018, 02:59 PM   #63
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Do video games that players "practice" killing "opponents" cause some people to somehow detach from reality? There have been numerous studies linking brain chemicals to video gaming.

Universally there are renegades that kill members of their own species. When a person goes off course, bad things can result. It is convenient and easy to blame inanimate objects, even though that is intellectually lazy and dishonest. Removing guns will, as evidenced by the U.K., only force kooks to use weapons that may be less likely to inflict injury and death to large numbers of people. As stated here by others, intent killers can knives, bombs, etc. There ain't no easy answer.
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Old May 20, 2018, 07:25 PM   #64
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Just watched the opening segment of NCIS Los Angeles on TV. Eleven people killed and one wounded in the first three minutes, mostly with machine guns. Gee, I wonder why today's children accept shooting people as a normal and exciting part of life.

Perhaps the reason the Hollywood crowd are so fast to blame guns for school violence is to divert attention from the real root cause ....themselves. Imagine if there was a law banning the use of guns in Hollywood films, TV shows, and video games. The loss of profits would drive them screaming to the offices of their lobbyists.

(Just switched to a show about the Civil War. Muskets this time, but still people dropping like flies. Think I'll switch to a super hero movie next...hoo boy).
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Old May 20, 2018, 08:21 PM   #65
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IMO,there is not "THE" answer. Its an aggregate of many factors,and a network of interacting unintended consequences.
There will be no "instant pudding" fix. Including targeting the NRA or the AR-15.

I don't notice girls being the shooters. Not likely the answer is there.

I don't like racial profiling,but the majority of the killers are White Males.

I would suggest two things. For a context of what might be absent,read Robert Ruark's "The Old Man and The Boy". That young man's shotgun carried with it much more than a firearm.It carried a food for the soul from an Old Man to a Young Man.It was about responsibility,trust,respect,values,such as regard for a good dog a covey of quail,regard for the written and unwritten rules,and the value of being accepted and included by Older Men.

Patriarch is a derogatory term these days.

We have courses of university study ,and in some cases required classes designed to place a burden of guilt and shame on a person for being born a White Male.

If you can succeed in making a person ashamed of WHO HE IS,he will not have the capacity for shame to limit WHAT HE DOES.

Many teachers cannot identify with or cope with the energy that just IS a young,dynamic Boy.It does not fit the teacher's model.
Try Robert Bly's "The Little Book of The Human Shadow"
And some teachers seek to make their own lives easier by medicating perfectly normal,high energy little boys more interested in grasshoppers than spelling.

The list goes on.

There is an obvious topic around dehumanization and respect for Life that I'm sure is taboo here,but it is worth quiet introspection.Lets not discuss it lest we be zapped.

Many of the steps taken in the name of "Progress" have dire unintended consequences.I think it is legitimate to question the wisdom of the social engineering contemporary with a change in violent behavior. What is politically correct may in fact be deadly.

Search "Rogue game preserve elephants" See what an absence of the Patriarch can cause.

The lighthouses we had to warn of reefs and wrecks are no longer politically correct.The plug has been pulled.

Do you know anyone who refuses to vote for a person who attends Church with his family?
I don't care your faith,or lack. But why hate those who have faith?

As I said,many factors

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Old May 20, 2018, 09:22 PM   #66
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Before we get too far off topic discussing the ills of modern society and how we got here, I think the idea of fame/media recognition and the idea of being desensitized from repeated exposure have merits, though they need to be discussed in this thread as they apply to the Texas school shooting which is the topic.

One of the students is reported as telling interviewers that the killer "didn't shoot the people he liked, so his story would be told".

The police have a confession, he admits he did it, and that he intended to do it, but has, so far, been silent on his reason why he did it.

It is not impossible that it was intentionally done with the idea of becoming famous (and intending it to be posthumous)

Until/unless the killer himself states his motive, we can only speculate.
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Old May 20, 2018, 09:41 PM   #67
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I have to assume because there was not an "ASSUALT" weapon used the topic is going to turn to how did he get ahold of his fathers firearms ? I'm not sure how many of these attacks involve the shooter using firearms owned by others . Sandy Hook and this one both had the shooter using there parents firearms .

What does that mean ? I have no idea because the situations were quite different . In Sandy Hook the shooter took his mothers firearms and used them to kill her before targeting the school . With out knowing all the facts in this case it seems reasonable to assume the father did not give him the firearms to shoot up the school . So how did he get them ?

My point to this is , are we headed to a national law requiring all gun owners to keep there firearms in a or secured by a certified locking device . Be it a safe , cabinet or trigger lock ? If you fail to do so will the law allow prosecution of said owner of the firearms used ? Is that even a reasonable step ? To ask gun owners to secure there firearms and if they choose not to . They understand they can go to jail for that choice ?
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Old May 20, 2018, 10:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal God
I have to assume because there was not an "ASSUALT" weapon used the topic is going to turn to how did he get ahold of his fathers firearms ? I'm not sure how many of these attacks involve the shooter using firearms owned by others . Sandy Hook and this one both had the shooter using there parents firearms.
Several other school shootings, with lower body counts, were also carried out with firearms that were legally purchased and possessed by a parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal God
My point to this is , are we headed to a national law requiring all gun owners to keep there firearms in a or secured by a certified locking device . Be it a safe , cabinet or trigger lock ? If you fail to do so will the law allow prosecution of said owner of the firearms used ? Is that even a reasonable step ? To ask gun owners to secure there firearms and if they choose not to . They understand they can go to jail for that choice ?
Some states already have that requirement. My state does -- but only if there are children under the age of 16 in the home. I think the law's purpose was to prevent children from accidentally shooting themselves or another child while playing with a gun they find in the house. It has been in effect since long before school shootings became a topic of national conversation.

This kid was 17, so my state's law would not have applied even if Texas had such a law. It wouldn't be a quantum leap for a legislature to raise that age to 18, and I wouldn't be surprised if some states enact such laws. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 20, 2018 at 10:46 PM.
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Old May 21, 2018, 10:42 AM   #69
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Did I say this already? If you as a parent see your kid going to school in a trench coat with weird crap on it (every day in the TX heat) - and you don't investigate or let the kid - you are not the world's best parent.

As a parent if you allow your kids access to guns, you'd better be quite sure you understand their lives. That doesn't mean you just gave them the OLD MAN's gun safety, RKBA lecture.

Too many parents have found out their kids have very secret and disturbing social lives or personal problems after the fact.
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Old May 21, 2018, 11:13 AM   #70
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I'm pretty confident that no parent fully knows everything about their teenage children. You may THINK you know everything, but I am quite sure that no kid shares everything with their parent, even one that thinks they are the kid's best pal. One of my sons was definitely doing some bad things when he was younger. We thought we knew the extent of it. He has since grown up and become a responsible young man and father, hardworking and absolutely devoted to his two boys. Only now did he tell us that when he was about 15 he was selling weed and bought a gun on the street which he had kept "hidden" in his bedroom. Fortunately no harm resulted from this and now his life is quite different. But for those out there who think that THEIR son or daughter would never touch drugs, would never be a bully, would never have a grudge that could lead to violence, etc, etc, they had better think again. Add guns to the mix and the potential for true tragedy is present.
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Old May 21, 2018, 11:18 AM   #71
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Search "Rogue game preserve elephants" See what an absence of the Patriarch can cause.
Very good post. i watched a show where an African game dep't put a large adult male elephant in a reserve inhabited by out of control juveniles.

As a former Big Brother i've have seen the same with US teenagers.

Quote:
Did I say this already? If you as a parent see your kid going to school in a trench coat with weird crap on it (every day in the TX heat) - and you don't investigate or let the kid - you are not the world's best parent.
The only folks who wear trench coats year around are flashers, child molesters and someone looking to hide a gun.
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Old May 21, 2018, 02:27 PM   #72
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1960 I took my new rifle to school and at recess the Principal my teacher and classmates went out back and shot it. Kids compared pocket knives at recess or lunch time. Adults were Mister or Miss, Aunt or uncle, you disrespect an adult you got a whipping. act up in school you got paddled in front of the class. Morning comes get up clean your room do your chores eat breakfast go to school. After school got a snack did your chores eat supper play a little or do home work then bed. We learned things like " right and wrong"
" Honor, Duty, Loyalty" "Work first play latter" none of which is instilled in the youth since the mid 1960s and people wonder why does this happen
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Old May 21, 2018, 05:36 PM   #73
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Yeah, everything was better in the old days, like polio, smallpox, and cholera. Different times and different places.

I can't think of a single generation who didn't think the one coming after it was doomed to hell because they were not as good.
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Old May 21, 2018, 06:12 PM   #74
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From the USA Today. Apparently they are relieved that no AR15s were used... since all other guns are less lethal.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ves/623202002/

Quote:
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott in Texas says the gunman, Dimitrios Pagourtzis, who was a student at Santa Fe High School, used two firearms: a shotgun and .38 caliber revolver, both of which he got from his father. Ten were left dead, mostly students.

The guns may have slowed down the gunman’s deadly rampage because they have a slower firing rate than firearms used in other recent mass shootings, such as the AR-15. Abbott said it was unclear whether Pagourtzis' father knew that the weapons were missing.

High-powered rifles such as the AR-15 can be fired more than twice as fast as most handguns. The standard magazine for an AR-15 holds 30 rounds, allowing a shooter to continue firing uninterrupted for longer, making the weapon more lethal than other firearms, though clearly the use of any gun can be deadly, especially a shotgun at close range.
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Old May 21, 2018, 08:31 PM   #75
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This isn’t encouraging, but I agree with Gladwell’s premise: https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...t-explanation/

It is a perverse trend that builds momentum with each new tragedy.

Public lynching used to be relatively common and popular in the United States. I reject the idea that school shootings are the result of a moral decline. Every American generation has engaged in some form of senseless and horrible violence.
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