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Old February 6, 2020, 03:30 AM   #1
Cosmodragoon
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Handguns, Hollowpoints, and Critters

Around town, lots of people carry .38 special, .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, etc. The first two are sometimes debated but the latter two are widely considered "acceptable" for self defense. Well, what happens we stray from town?

Does anyone have doubts about those "around town" calibers when it comes to coyotes, wild dogs, or smaller critters which might need dispatching? In terms of animal size or type, where do you think each of those calibers (fired from average-sized firearms) will become marginal?

Most of us carry hollowpoints in those calibers but does your opinion change if we are loaded up with solids?

Now for the fun part. Let's include higher calibers and bigger animals. Given 10mm, .357 magnum, .44 magnum, etc; where do hollowpoints start to become marginal? In your opinion, what's the breakdown across critters and calibers in the continental United States?
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Old February 6, 2020, 09:30 AM   #2
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Wow. I've got my lurking camo on and a big tub of popcorn. Let the opinioning begin!
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Old February 6, 2020, 11:39 AM   #3
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When I walk in rural areas I carry 9mm Federal HST JHP 124 gr, which should dispatch any critters, two or four legged, up to but not including bears. With an 11 round capacity it should put a dent in black bears as well but I wouldn't want to test it.
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Old February 6, 2020, 12:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Cosmodragoon
Does anyone have doubts about those "around town" calibers when it comes to coyotes, wild dogs, or smaller critters which might need dispatching?
IMHO, for smaller critters (your criterion) I think any of the above would be adequate. .380 ACP possibly a bit marginal for large dogs or coyote hybrids, but adequate. The other three are fine.
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Old February 6, 2020, 12:37 PM   #5
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Shot between the eye and the ear, every large game animal in North America has been taken with .22 LR. Even world record grizzly bears.

My walking-around field pistol is either .22LR, .380 or .38 Special. The latter is polite and does not spit brass in to the brush. Against a mad dog or foaming at the mouth raccoon I feel fine with the latter two and wish I had more with the .22 but with careful aim it's enough. Plenty of coyotes have been taken with .22LR.

Don't forget that the mighty black powder loaded .44-40 is said to have taken more deer than anything except perhaps the .30-30 and was considered a high power pistol load in it's day. 40 grains of black powder under a 200g cast bullet. That's about 690 ft-lbs of energy but probably from a rifle, because... rifle.

A 9mm is around 375 foot pounds, although kinetic energy and momentum are not precise metrics, they do give some kind of ball park. The 9mm guys will say "Yeah but I am gonna put 15 rounds of that in to that prairie dog over there so I don't need cast bullets and my Glock will kaboom if I shoot cast anyhow. No, no I won't that's a fable. Wait, barrel blah blah..." but you will look like a terrorist hunting deer or bear with a black pistol while a gentleman of the woods uses a hunting revolver for large game, a .22 for small game, and anything in between for anything between.

Big heavy animals like bear and elk and pigs and moose... use a cast bullet for breaking bones and penetrating leather hides, stout muscle masses and huge thick bone.

If you shoot for the lungs of a deer, best use hollow points. If you neck or shoulder shoot- use cast.

If you happen to be stalked by a dinosaur and only have 300 grain XTPs loaded.. even after the petals shred off, whatever is left is gonna keep going. If you hunt squirrels with a 300g XTP the muzzle blast alone will take the skin off the squirrel at 50 feet... so that makes cleaning the tree rat easy but you'll need to walk half a mile to pick up the carcass- so maybe ease up a bit. For things in between, use things in between.

Me, I maintain that .38 special (3" LCRx but I wish it was a 4" j-frame but I am cheap) is a dandy walking around woods gun. It will certainly take anything less than a deer, it's accurate, not too loud, and doesn't spit the grass in to the field like my Bersa .380 does (which has a decently long barrel). For deer hunting I use a .44 magnum with less than full-house JHP loads although I have used ruger only .45 colt loads and you can't tell the difference by the deer or the felt recoil and it's easy to mix up the bullets as they are near the same diameter anyhow.

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Old February 6, 2020, 01:48 PM   #6
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Any of 'em will kill any coyotes, wild dogs, or smaller critters with no fuss. None of those beasties are armoured. Doesn't necessarily require a head shot with any of 'em either.
"...where do hollow points start to become marginal..." Any HP out of a handgun requires velocity to expand reliably. And shot placement is critical.
"...stalked by a dinosaur..." Poisoned arrow like Turok Son of Stone uses. snicker.
A 300g XTP probably won't leave enough tree rat to bother with. snicker.
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Old February 7, 2020, 12:04 AM   #7
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The popcorn might have been premature. Not a lot of bites so far. I was hoping to get a more comprehensive version of this type of thread. :P

Depending on what I'm wearing and what time of year it is, I'm either carrying 9mm, .40 S&W, or .327 Federal. I have zero reservations about any of those when it comes to coyotes, wild dogs, etc. When I'm planning to be in the woods, I carry a full-sized revolver in .357 magnum.

I've seen a few small black bears. I've never encountered a moose on foot but I see them occasionally while driving. I've only come across one large cat but I didn't get a good look. (It was very fast!) Wild animals usually keep their distance and can often be scared off in my experience. Of course, "often" and "usually" aren't "always". That got me wondering about the spectrum of handgun and hollowpoint effectiveness. I figured I would attract some spit-ballin' from y'all and maybe get a few stories.
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Old February 7, 2020, 12:37 AM   #8
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Critters ain't any harder to stop than humans of the same size. If a 9mm HP is good enough to stop a 200 lb adult male it will do the same to a 200 lb critter. That would be dog, coyote, or bear. And most black bear aren't much bigger than 200 lbs.

The average taken by hunters each year is about 185. They can get much larger, but the ones that do avoid humans. It is the 1-2 year olds that have just been run off by their mothers who haven't learned to avoid humans that are responsible for virtually all bear/human interactions.

If you find yourself in a place where you may have to defend yourself from critters that are larger than a normal sized human then it is a good idea to go up to the heavy for caliber hardcast bullets available from DoubeTap and Buffalo bore. Typical FMJ ammo doesn't provide nearly the penetration you'd get with hardcast.

The HP vs Hardcast ammo applies regardless of the cartridge used. Normal size critters will go down faster with HP ammo. For the truly big stuff you need hardcast for the penetration.

Here is an interesting read based on fact instead of old wives tales. Normal handguns are much more effective for large predator protection than most think. This study includes 37 incidents, but there is a followup that includes over 70 with about the same success rate. I didn't want to take the time to find it.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz6DF8G6dc9

An example of how effective the heavy for caliber hardcast bullets can be. The 9mm loads have shown they will penetrate 5'+ in ballistics gel.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/alask...-a-9mm-pistol/

What do I carry. Either a 9mm or 10mm semi-auto with heavy for caliber bullets. 147 gr in 9mm and 180 or 200 gr in 10mm. It may be HP or hardcast depending on the situation.
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Old February 7, 2020, 12:47 AM   #9
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Shot between the eye and the ear, every large game animal in North America has been taken with .22 LR. Even world record grizzly bears.
Any chance you can cite the "world record grizzly bears" taken with .22LR?

I know it should be possible, but has it actually ever been done in the field?

As to hollowpoints, there are hollowpoints and there are hollowpoints. They are not all constructed the same, nor are they all diven the same,. so blanket statements are, essentially, useless.

Anything built to be effective against a human (say approx. 150lbs) will also be effective against any smaller animal given PROPER bullet placement. They will likely also be effective against larger animals. Yes, you can kill an 800lb steer with a .22lr. You do need the steer to co-operate a bit, though. Like standing still enough for a proper shot.

I've got .44 hollowpoints that will punch through 1/2" iron (I've done it) no doubt in my mind they would do for bear. I've also got .357 JHP that I would doubt would exit a human on a frontal shot. Its a matter of velocity AND bullet construction, as well as placement.
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Old February 7, 2020, 02:18 AM   #10
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For me it's cast hollow points for 40 and 10mm in my handguns. Gun of choice outside is a 44 Special using Keith or Thompson bullets loaded to Skeeter levels. If those don't work home team is some deep Doo.
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Old February 7, 2020, 07:51 AM   #11
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I use a 22 LR for pests around the Ranch.
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Old February 7, 2020, 10:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Around town, lots of people carry .38 special, .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, etc. The first two are sometimes debated but the latter two are widely considered "acceptable" for self defense. Well, what happens we stray from town?

Does anyone have doubts about those "around town" calibers when it comes to coyotes, wild dogs, or smaller critters which might need dispatching?
Are talking about self defense?

Certainly any of those will be more than adequate up to anything coyote-sized. Most coyotes only end up in the 25-40 lb range. They should be good for wolves as well for that matter. After all, wolves only get up to about 180 lbs and are typically smaller than most people. People have used a variety of pistol calibers to successfully deal with bears.

I would say that in most cases, if people have a problem defending against smaller threats with their EDC handgun, it isn't because they didn't bring enough gun/ammo. It is because they didn't shoot properly, either because they didn't know where to shoot or because those don't have the skills to shoot a smaller moving target.

Quote:
Any chance you can cite the "world record grizzly bears" taken with .22LR?
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/bel...#axzz6DHYCRy00
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Old February 7, 2020, 11:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Most coyotes only end up in the 25-40 lb range.
I believe that's generally true for western coyotes. I'm pretty certain I've read that the coyote hybrids ("coydogs" and coywolves) that are invading the eastern states are often larger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_coyote
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Old February 7, 2020, 11:39 AM   #14
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T. - Thanks for reminding me of the Poisoned Arrow as an effective Dinosaur self defense round.

There are some Youtube videos that show that the newfangled poisons have brought new life in to the Poison Blow Dart, and now the Poison Blow Dart clearly shows (in Ballistic Gel) that it meets all the penetration and stopping power set forth in the BLM standards.

Now I realize that there was that Utah standoff where Poison Blow Darts were unable to reach the dinosaurs through stone wheels and wooden carts.... but for those with older hands unable to handle racking the draw string or those needing a more concealable weapon, the blow gun has been effective in the jungle for hundreds of years... yeah, a poison blow dart will easily dispatch anything less than a T-rex. I saw it on YouTube.

Link to grizzly kill above, thanks Double Naught.

In case people don't get it, I'm just having a little fun with what I see is some of the nonsense we hear commonly.

My opinion is informed by a passed interest in old black powder revolvers and metallic cartridge guns and muzzle loaders. My Grandfather grew up in the transition period and Great Grandfather hunted the woods in Northern PA in the black powder days.

They didn't have fancy bullets or great high pressures yet did fine.

These days I don't see much innovation in handguns since about 1940 except in reducing cost of manufacturing and improvements in safety features. Magnum handguns.. okay.. the hand cannons are new yet simply "put more powder in because the new materials and manufacturing process can withstand the pressure." Still, .44-40 has gotten the job done in the past.

Powders have had some improvement, yet Bullseye and Unique can still hold their own.

Bullets- yes! Modern bullets are a vast improvement. We understand cast bullet design, alloys and lubricants somewhat better but hollowpoint design is a great modern advancement.

As we are funning around with- a lot of problems in the field have been solved with a pointy stick. Everything else is a modern convenience.
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Old February 7, 2020, 11:41 AM   #15
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critters

All the SD calibers you list will dispatch critters described, and I would go so far as to say, with ease. Shifting to FMJ/ball/lead RN/SWC will make a difference, but still yield a dead critter, likely not as efficiently unless you brain it or cut the spine high up. I see the .380 as a bit borderline, but additionally hard to shoot due to the compact pistols in which the cartridge is usually chambered. I've had occasion to dispatch my share of critters up to whitetail size due to disease, injury, etc with duty pistols in .38, .357, 9mm and .45 with no issue. I started carrying a .22lr Cricket rifle in the rig, which was very effective and much quieter than a duty pistol for just such tasks. Even though the practice was frowned on by some admin types, being not approved in policy, it was a common tool for those willing to buck the system a bit.

Regards bigger critters, one of our members frequently posts a pic of a moose he finished with a .357 that had been injured in a car v. moose episode. I cannot recall the load. I would shift to soft point or non expanding ammo for black bears and up, and .357 would be my minimum.
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Old February 7, 2020, 01:25 PM   #16
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I believe that's generally true for western coyotes. I'm pretty certain I've read that the coyote hybrids ("coydogs" and coywolves) that are invading the eastern states are often larger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_coyote
The record coyote came in at 75 lbs from Afton, WY in 1937. There will always be exceptions that fall outside the norm. Coyotes can be larger than 40 lbs and smaller than 25 lbs, which is why I included most as a qualifier. NE coywolves tend to be a bit larger than their western counterparts, commonly over 40 lbs, but that still puts them far smaller than wolves, of which typical handgun self defense calibers mentioned in the would still handle.
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Old February 9, 2020, 09:28 AM   #17
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Now for the fun part. Let's include higher calibers and bigger animals. Given 10mm, .357 magnum, .44 magnum, etc; where do hollowpoints start to become marginal? In your opinion, what's the breakdown across critters and calibers in the continental United States?
Fortunately - this has already been figured out.

The data you desire can be found in the results of the tests of the sectional density of the projectile.

Simply put - the relationship between the mass of the projectile and it's - (for lack of a better term) "frontal area" - determines the penetration of the projectile.

The actual formula calls for the mass & diameter - but - with an expanding bullet, the diameter changes as it's frontal area opens up.

The beauty of this is - velocity & caliber play very little role in trying to determine the penetration value.

A .22 or .50 AE - and everything in between - with similar sectional density values - will all have very similar penetration results.
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Old February 9, 2020, 10:14 AM   #18
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I grew up in the country and most of my non-military life I have lived out in the country. I have carried a handgun since I was 15 years old, but as part of my "clothing' and also as a professional in both military service and law enforcement as well as in international service. I am now 64. So you can see, I have had a lot of time with handguns and as such I have had many many many opportunities to use them. I have found I can kill coyotes with well places 22s firing solids, so my opinion is that if you shoot well, on animals up to about 40 pounds it doesn't matter much what bullet you shoot as long as you can put it where you want to. For anti-personnel use in any urban area HPs are better off using HPs for 2 reasons. #1 they make larger diameter holes and that drops blood pressure faster if you shoot a hot 38 or larger gun. #2 you never want a bullet to exit a person in an urban area if you can help it.
In the 22s, the 32s and the 380s the forensic reports shot that FMJ and solid bullet actually do a bit better then HPs because the area inside the wound The Cubic centimeters of displaced cavity) is larger from the deeper penetration from solids. The "mouse guns" don't have enough power to account for much except for placement and penetration. Deep narrow wounds do better then short wider wounds when "short' can be as little as five inches, or in many cases the bullet from 22 HPs can veer off course in wild ways and the intended target inside the body is not even hit.

On animals of 300 pounds and larger, the solid cast bullet is likely to be the most deadly of all. I have killed many big game animals with handguns and I have used HPs Jacketed soft points and cast and of the 3, I have found a well shaped cast bullet on bear, elk large deer, moose and buffalo, the Solid heavy LBT style out performed all the others and in very large game, (700 pounds and larger0 they do a LOT better. Not far behind them ate the heave Keith SWCs.
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Old February 9, 2020, 11:06 AM   #19
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Out fooling around I generally carry my 9mm S&E Shield. I have no intention of even shooting at a target with it then, throws away my case's and I hate that. Now and then I do carry a handgun hoping for maybe a rabbit. Then it is mostly a DA revolver either a 32 long or a 38 spec, both loaded with cast bullet's. The only hand guns I use jacketed bullet's in are my defense guns. I do have an HD Military High Standard I really like but have never found a holster for it. I don't worry about losing 22 RF case's! Neither my present 32 long or my 38 spec has ever had a jacketed round fired in them! Pretty tuff on squirrels and rabbit's though.
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Old February 9, 2020, 02:06 PM   #20
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Old February 9, 2020, 05:28 PM   #21
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Hey, the dude killed a Grizzly with 9mm hollow points

Kidding aside, I run my dogs in the sticks and for this work I have either a stainless 357, 4" Ruger Security Six or a single action Blackhawk 4 5/8" in 45 Colt

168 Grain Keith type semi wad cutters in the 357 and 270 grain same type bullet in the 45. They are cast for slightly higher than mid-range and are reloads... For both I use Unique powder. I got my bullets from Montana Bullet Works and I don't know if he is still in business.

John Linebaugh opined that a 250-270 grain, hard cast, semi wadcutter 45 Colt loaded with about 9.5 grains of Unique would shoot length wise through an Elk at 100 yards. Elmer Keith, John Wooters and others also recommended this type of load for almost any game in N America

My mistake- Linebaugh claims that a .45 Colt load with a 260 G Keith cast bullet at 900 fps will shoot length wise through an antelope or mule deer at 100 yards, not elk as I stated earlier.

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Old February 11, 2020, 12:33 PM   #22
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Hollow points become marginal if they're driven too fast and fail to penetrate properly, so there is some truth that slower can be better depending on the hollow point used. Often hardcast is used so that there is no chance of poor penetration. I'm a .40 and .44 guy, to me the .40 can do anything the 10mm can, realistically and has taken deer, hogs, black bear and even moose, so anything smaller is no issue. The .44 is my go to hunting handgun but I have no issues with using the .40, the biggest game I hunt is deer. I would consider the .40, .45, 10mm and 357 Mag to be similar in their capabilities, if you handload for them you can run very specific bullets they will all get the job done on quite a few critters, really. I like .40 best because I find it to be the best blend of power and size, it comes oddly close to full on 10mm but from a 9mm sized gun. When I'm in the revolver mood, I'll use the .44 Mag (even Special).

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Old February 11, 2020, 04:34 PM   #23
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Yet your user name is Ruger45LC....
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Old February 11, 2020, 06:35 PM   #24
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I've come around on .40 S&W. My problem was trying it with compact polymer handguns where the snap was uncomfortable. In larger guns with better recoil mitigation, like the USP or PX4 Storm, it's actually a great round. When I carry .40 S&W, it's usually with 165-grain hollow-points.

Something like that is plenty for around town and most any critters I come across if I take a spontaneous walk into the woods. I'm just interested in the boundaries of where it stops being "plenty" or "acceptable".

Thanks for all the posts so far. I hope to read more as they come in.
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Old February 12, 2020, 06:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ruger45LC View Post
Hollow points become marginal if they're driven too fast and fail to penetrate properly, so there is some truth that slower can be better depending on the hollow point used. Often hardcast is used so that there is no chance of poor penetration. I'm a .40 and .44 guy, to me the .40 can do anything the 10mm can, realistically and has taken deer, hogs, black bear and even moose, so anything smaller is no issue. The .44 is my go to hunting handgun but I have no issues with using the .40, the biggest game I hunt is deer. I would consider the .40, .45, 10mm and 357 Mag to be similar in their capabilities, if you handload for them you can run very specific bullets they will all get the job done on quite a few critters, really. I like .40 best because I find it to be the best blend of power and size, it comes oddly close to full on 10mm but from a 9mm sized gun. When I'm in the revolver mood, I'll use the .44 Mag (even Special).
Keith type LSWCs of the classic Lyman 429421 mold for the 44 Spl and 44 Mag, as well as an even heavier similar mold for the 45 Colt are killers.

The sharp, square shoulder on the lead band cuts a deep and definite wound channel if the bullet is cast right...and also, supposedly causes effective trauma in game animals although they are generally non-expanding

A bullet that doesn't penetrate to the vitals is not much good.
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