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Old December 31, 2019, 12:01 AM   #1
Legal_trouble
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[Ohio] state level firearms rights restored, how long till I try a 4473

Hello all, new member here.
A little background: I'm 33, 15 years ago when I was a young and dumb 18 year old I got myself into some trouble and caught a F5 (lowest level felony here in Ohio) drug charge. Did zero time, 2.5yrs probation / fines / 100h of community service however because of the charge I was a prohibited person. Fast forward to this year, under ORC 2923.14 I filed for and after a pro se legal battle was subsequently granted relief from firearms disability on Dec 19th!

I did all this on my own as the fees even the cheap lawyers wanted were out of this world (high end $7k flat, cheap ones ~$3k plus actual filing costs and actual billable time) so at the end of the proceedings I asked the judge some questions I had (which admittedly would of been best directed to a lawyer but again, pro se) . First question for the judge was "when could I actually own guns".
She replied that I could own firearms immediately and checks by LEO would show that however when I questioned my ability to buy a gun from an FFL requiring a 4473 she wasn't able to answer that as she didn't know how long it took everything to process in the nics and other related systems.

That's my question to you folks; how long does it take these kinds of things to get entered into the nics system so that I can actually go out and buy a gun from a dealer? And further, when that time comes should I expect an immediate proceed response or should I expect a delay response?
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Old December 31, 2019, 12:30 AM   #2
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if the feds haven't cleared you you're not going to pass their paperwork and background check required to buy a gun from an ffl. only way to know is to try it.
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Old December 31, 2019, 01:04 AM   #3
Legal_trouble
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The federal process (which we all know is a joke because it's been defunded) only applies if you've charged with a federal crime in federal court. I was charged with a state crime in a county court [state level] which is why I only had to petition them. If you read the ATF instruction page for the 4473 it specifically instructs you to answer no to questions 11b and 11c if you've been relieved from disability by the court which initially convicted you.

I can't say I wasn't expecting such a response, this was a year long legal battle which I've been researching since 2016, I've read pretty much every thread & article on the subject pretty much everywhere on the internet but I'm still surprised it's the first reply here. A search of this specific sub-forum shows there's almost always an identical response in every like thread before others come in clarifying there's a difference from state level conviction & relief to federal level conviction & relief.
In the eyes of the law I'm good, I'm just trying to figure out the wait time for the judgment to show in the different check systems.

What if I pose a different question: how long after a conviction does it take for said disqualifying conviction to show up on a NICS check barring the applicant from a purchase?

I did have another option: I can obtain a CCW permit from the [gun friendly] licking county sheriff and then use a gun store which bypasses the 4473 check based on a CCW permit, which is the option I've already began, however I'm still curious about the 4473 incase I run across a gun from a non CCW permit accepting dealer (i.e. a dealer @ a show).

Last edited by Legal_trouble; December 31, 2019 at 01:16 AM.
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Old December 31, 2019, 03:40 AM   #4
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I can obtain a CCW permit from the [gun friendly] licking county sheriff and then use a gun store which bypasses the 4473 check based on a CCW permit, which is the option I've already began
Stop there. The CCW exempts you from the NICS check, but you still have to do a 4473. Whoever told you otherwise is wrong.

The judge also gave you an incorrect answer. Your rights are not automatically restored. Under Ohio law, you have to apply for reinstatement in your county court.

Given that the process can be tricky and you've already been given dangerously erroneous advice, I can't recommend strongly enough that you hire a lawyer for this process.
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Old December 31, 2019, 04:14 AM   #5
Legal_trouble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Under Ohio law, you have to apply for reinstatement in your county court.
Yes sir, that very link you cite is what I've done and been granted, I've completed the process. I can post the [slightly redacted for privacy] court ruling if you'd like to see it. This was a new civil case, 100% different and stand-alone from the original felony case 15 years ago. I didn't just waltz in and ask my original sentencing judge, it was a whole process, technically I sued the state for relief from disability with me listed as plaintiff and the state of Ohio listed as defendant in the court of common pleas.

I have a very good LEO friend who verified the judgment is correctly entered into the state system and, as far as actually possessing firearms I'm G2G. I still come back as a 50B (code for registered felon) but immediately he saw the flag that I was relieved from weapons disability. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought I had explained that well enough but maybe not...

Edited for spellin' only

Last edited by Legal_trouble; December 31, 2019 at 08:01 PM.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
Stop there. The CCW exempts you from the NICS check, but you still have to do a 4473. Whoever told you otherwise is wrong.
I think he’s a little confused as to what the 4473 is. OP, there is no such thing as a “4473 check”. I think you’re conflating the NICS check with the 4473. The 4473 is the federal paperwork required when receiving a firearm from a dealer. There is no (legal) way to skip this paperwork, even with a carry permit.

As to your overall question, it sounds like you just want to know how long it takes to have your records updated into NICS? I can’t tell you that, but I can tell you that I’ve had several customers in a similar situation as yours who waited months, or even years, after getting their record expunged and still got denied on their NICS check. Also, in most cases the ones who got a proceed still had to go though a delay period. But this is simply my personal experience working at gun stores, you might be just fine.

I think you have two main options here: first, consult a lawyer and make sure everything is cleared up the best you can. Or second — if you’re absolutely sure things have been done properly on your end — just try to buy a gun. You can’t “test” the NICS system, so it would have to be in conjunction with buying a gun. Despite what some people at gun shops might tell you, t’s not illegal to get denied on a NICS check, the crime is being a prohibited person and lying about it on the 4473 (and any corresponding state paperwork, if applicable). So if things have truly been cleared up in the court system and you get erroneously denied, then you haven’t done anything wrong. But if it turns out that things haven’t been properly cleared up, then you could be in some legal trouble, which is why I highly recommend sucking it up and spending the money on a lawyer.

Whether or not you go the lawyer route, when you first try to buy a gun you need to make sure you’re buying from a dealer that won’t charge you a restocking fee if you’re denied. Most denials start with delays, and some dealers will charge you for the gun if you want them to hold it during a delay. Then if you’re denied they’ll refund your money minus a restocking fee (sometimes a flat charge, sometimes a percentage). This is to keep people from using gun shops to test the NICS system when they have no intention of actually buying a gun.

Also, in the first state where I worked (WA) the police didn’t care about denials. But here in PA they usually follow up on them. In PA there is a state point-of-contact for NICS (called PICS), so sometimes the police will even come to a shop during the pending PICS check and arrest the customer if he’s flagged in their system. I don’t know how Ohio works, but if someone in your situation tried to buy a gun here, there’s a possibility that he could attract unwanted police attention if it turned out things hadn’t been properly cleared up in the system.

EDIT: I suppose your third option is to get a carry permit, which I believe lets you skip the NICS check in Ohio when buying a gun. But to get the permit still requires a background check, and I don’t know how big of a deal it is if you fail the check for a carry permit in Ohio. So I still think your best bet is to get a lawyer to help you with all of this.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:39 AM   #7
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Considering NCIS is usually backlogged on this stuff, you could be waiting years before being able to pass NCIS. Or a few weeks, welcome to government bureaucracy!
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legal Trouble
Sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought I had explained that well enough but maybe not...
You did. I understood your situation perfectly from your original post. I just don't know the answer to the question.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:20 PM   #9
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I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your specific question. The beaurocracy is mind boggling and government inefficiencies abound.

I would get my CCW first. Then, as long as you can complete the 4473 honestly, you should be able to proceed with your purchase, forgoing the NICS check...presumably with most FFLs. (I know, in my state at least, I've purchased from a number of small outfits and big box stores and, using my firearms permit, have never had to go through NICS.)
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Old December 31, 2019, 04:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Also, in the first state where I worked (WA) the police didn’t care about denials. But here in PA they usually follow up on them. In PA there is a state point-of-contact for NICS (called PICS), so sometimes the police will even come to a shop during the pending PICS check and arrest the customer if he’s flagged in their system.
Let me just add a happy nugget...

If you seek a gun store in Ohio that absolutely WILL do the above, I can direct you to one in the center of the state. These guys run license plates in their parking lot!
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Old December 31, 2019, 05:13 PM   #11
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I have a neighbor who is in the same fix as the OP. Got charged with a felony, did his time and community service, the whole ball of wax. At the end of his time he petitioned the court to have his civil rights restored which was granted. A few years later he got his concealed weapon permit. He then decided to buy an AR15 at Walmart as they were on sale at a very low price. He fills out the 44573 and they call it in and it's delayed. He waited the three days and learned that he has been denied. Walmart does not accept a CCW permit in lieu of the NCIS check although most of the LGS here in Tucson do.

My neighbor then contacted NCIS and sent in the required paperwork and fingerprints etc. and it's been better than five years but he is still on the denial list. Either it has been lost in the bureaucracy or they're just ignoring or file thirteening his paperwork.

My thought is the state of Arizona never notified NCIS of the change in my neighbor's status. I hope the OP's state was more diligent with his status.
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Old December 31, 2019, 05:25 PM   #12
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You may have to jump thru hoops to have your record cleared with the fed. Even if denied for mistaken or stolen identity it's a major thing. In Texas a dealer doesn't have to run the 4473 if the buyer has a carry license. I don't know what Ohio law is.
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Old December 31, 2019, 06:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by pete2 View Post
In Texas a dealer doesn't have to run the 4473 if the buyer has a carry license.
Again for clarification, the 4473 is not the same as the background check. In some states you can skip the background check if you have a carry permit, but everyone in the country has to fill out the 4473 if they’re being transferred a gun from a dealer. A carry license doesn’t let you skip the 4473 in any state.
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Old December 31, 2019, 06:36 PM   #14
Legal_trouble
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Ok guys, getting some good info here thanks for all your replies so far!
BATFE letter authorizing Ohio gun shops to accept ccw permit in lieu of nics check. (link is a pdf download, just FYI)

So how do I go about determining if a gun store accepts the permit or if they don't care and always do their own nics check? Can I just call and ask? Is that suspicious [even though completely legal]?
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:46 PM   #15
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I can post the [slightly redacted for privacy] court ruling if you'd like to see it.
No need. Sorry, but I posted my reply before my first cup of coffee. I ran this past a friend who's a dealer in Cleveland, and he thinks you're OK. This is a tricky area, though, and I'd suggest throwing a few bucks to an actual lawyer just to review everything.

Quote:
So how do I go about determining if a gun store accepts the permit or if they don't care and always do their own nics check?
Just call around. If they've been in business for a while, they should be familiar with this situation.
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Old December 31, 2019, 11:25 PM   #16
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The CCW exempts you from the NICS check,...
Admittedly I don't know anything about Ohio law, but I'm confused, how does a state CCW supersede Federal law?

In my state, which has a waiting period, the state's concealed license allowed bypass of the waiting period. When the Federal law (NICS) came about, the state permit did not affect that requirement.

How can an Ohio CCW bypass the Federally required check?

or am I misunderstanding the situation??
(as usual )
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Old January 1, 2020, 01:03 AM   #17
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The ATF has ruled that certain state's permits qualify as alternatives to the background check requirement of the Brady Law.
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Old January 1, 2020, 03:14 AM   #18
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thank you.

I don't know if my state would have been on that list, but its now irrelevant, as new state law requires a background check (and waiting period) whether you have a CCW permit or not.
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Old January 1, 2020, 08:53 AM   #19
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"How long does it take a semi-opaque federal agency to bring records current?" isn't a truly legal question, and if there is a lawyer who knows that answer, I don't know him.

Quote:
So how do I go about determining if a gun store accepts the permit or if they don't care and always do their own nics check? Can I just call and ask? Is that suspicious [even though completely legal]?
I would expect any small FFL to know accept the CCP because it means less work for him. Mine asks people that before anything else.

The practical answer for you may be to have a transaction denied, then appeal the denial.
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Old January 1, 2020, 10:26 PM   #20
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This thread lllustrates the shortcomings and pitfalls that typically plague "common sense" and "reasonable" firearms laws. There is no incentive for governmental agencies to ensure that non-prohibited persons are permitted to purchase firearms.
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Old January 2, 2020, 12:02 AM   #21
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I have just finished reading this topic with great interest.

My question comes to this. What is going to happen once all these states start to decriminalize pot. What is this effect to those that were once convicted for felony possession? I have heard that their records will be expunged of these convictions and if that is so then what happens to the gun rights? Are they still restricted? Will they have to go through all this also?

I ask because I do have a Stepchild that has a felony possession conviction for having pot plants.
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Old January 2, 2020, 03:15 AM   #22
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Legal trouble, congratulations on getting relief from the firearms disability!

I don't think any of us really knows how long it will take before you're "in the clear." Unfortunately, I'm going to have to echo the thought that you still need a lawyer to check this out in any way short of trying to buy a gun from a dealer & letting the NICS check proceed. And therein lies the rub.
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Old January 2, 2020, 08:31 AM   #23
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I have no answer, legally or not but for the OP, why not go to a LGS and try?
It isn't necessarily tied to a specific gun, it's just permission to 'buy a gun'...or does that put one on some sort of 'black list', if it's denied??
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Old January 2, 2020, 10:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legal trouble
A little background: I'm 33, 15 years ago when I was a young and dumb 18 year old I got myself into some trouble and caught a F5 (lowest level felony here in Ohio) drug charge. Did zero time, 2.5yrs probation / fines / 100h of community service however because of the charge I was a prohibited person. Fast forward to this year, under ORC 2923.14 I filed for and after a pro se legal battle was subsequently granted relief from firearms disability on Dec 19th!

I did all this on my own as the fees even the cheap lawyers wanted were out of this world (high end $7k flat, cheap ones ~$3k plus actual filing costs and actual billable time) so at the end of the proceedings I asked the judge some questions I had (which admittedly would of been best directed to a lawyer but again, pro se) .
If you don't mind the question, why didn't you file for an expungement and sealing of your record?
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Old January 2, 2020, 11:20 AM   #25
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Go to forum The High Road and ask Spatts McGee
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