The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 1, 2020, 12:51 PM   #51
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Aguila Blanca ....Elizabeth Warren as an example, partially because she is well-known, and also because of the nature of her claims that she's a Native American. She is not an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation -- the tribe has said that, and she has acknowledged that. Beyond that, she has spent her entire life living and working as a white academic, mostly in colleges and universities far distant from the Cherokee reservation. She has never maintained any sort of attachment to any Cherokee community.
Again, being an enrolled member is not a requirement to choose "Native American" on the Form 4473. Choosing Native American means that the buyer/transferee has some Native American ancestry and has tribal affiliation or community attachment.
For example: Navajo requires 25% "blood quantum" to be considered a member of the tribe.....the Navajo tribe. Less than 25% doesn't make you ineligible for claiming Native American ancestry
The Cherokee Nation doesn't require "blood quantum, but instead "individuals must provide documents connecting them to an enrolled lineal ancestor who is listed on the Dawes Roll with a blood degree. CDIB/Tribal Citizenship is traced through natural parents. In cases of adoption, CDIB/Citizenship must be proven through a biological parent to an ancestor registered on the Dawes Roll.”


Quote:
So ... is she entitled to self-identify as a Native American on a 4473 or any other form
She is if its true and genuinely has Native American ancestry...and not necessarily Cherokee: " ...a person having origins in any of the original peoples of North of South America (including Central America) and who maintains a tribal affiliation or community attachment..." If one of her great grandparents was Native American.....she does have "origins". But again, there is no requirement for her to prove she has the documentation necessary to be an enrolled member of the Cherokee tribe.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 01:12 PM   #52
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Aguila Blanca
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Wait a minute....YOU are the one that claimed one had to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to claim Native American, that is simply not correct.
No. The instructions say you have to either "maintain a tribal affiliation" OR "[maintain] a [tribal] community association." I said I think "tribal association" means being enrolled in a tribe. You said I am wrong, but you haven't cited anything to demonstrate that I'm wrong, or what lesser "affiliation" constitutes "tribal affiliation."
I don't need to define "tribal association" to you....that would be the Feds. But you do need to prove that there is a requirement to be an enrolled member of a tribe in order to select Native American.

Quote:
The instruction also says "or community association." So maintaining a [tribal] community] association is an acceptable substitute for "tribal affiliation" (whatever that means) ... but there is also no definition or explanation of what constitutes "community association."
No kidding.
Child is adopted by a Navajo family, biological great grandparent was a full blooded Navajo, no one else in that childs bloodline is Navajo. Meaning the kid is not eligible for membership in the Navajo tribe. They live on a reservation. To anyone with a lick of common sense that there....is tribal affiliation or community association, but NOT a member of the tribe. Meaning the child could select Native American on the Form 4473.


Quote:
Those words are right there in the instructions, and they apply ONLY to Native Americans ("American Indians") and Alaskan Natives, not to any other several other racial categories. So the government must have had some reason for putting those words there, but they haven't told us what those words mean. I have stated what I think "tribal affiliation" means. I have also stated that I have no idea what "community association" means. I did NOT say that one must satisfy both criteria; "or" means "or," not "and."
Yeah, I know.
I learned all that the first time I read the 4473.
Regarding the meaning of "tribal affiliation or community association", the government doesn't have to provide a definition of every word or term in a document, instead they rely on the ordinary meaning rule: "a principle of statutory interpretation that when a word is not defined in a statute or other legal instrument, the court normally construes it in accordance with its ordinary or natural meaning. This rule guides courts faced with litigation that turns on the meaning of a term not defined by the statute, or on that of a word found within a definition itself."


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
I've pointed out what the passage in the 4473 says....and it sure as heck doesn't say one must be an enrolled member of a tribe to claim Native American.
You say I'm wrong as to what "tribal affiliation" means. What does it mean, and what government source says that your definition is correct and that mine is incorrect?
See above. And again, I didn't say your interpretation of "tribal affiliation" was incorrect....just that "enrolled member of a tribe" was not required.

Quote:
We agree on what the form's instructions say. Agreed, the form does not say "enrolled member." The form does say "maintain tribal affiliation," and it does not define what "tribal affiliation" means. Since you are so certain that it doesn't mean enrollment in a tribe -- what does it mean, and what's the authority for your definition?
See above.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 01:28 PM   #53
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,017
Gentlemen, I think this is becoming a bit irrelevant. IF Elizabeth Warren, or any one else checks a racial/ethnic box they aren't "qualified" for, what's going to happen??

IF your DNA test comes back saying you are 0.1% sasquatch can you check the sasquatch box?? Is the govt doing DNA checks to ensure you're ONLY checking the appropriate boxes on the 4473? I don't think so...

If you check the "wrong" box because you IDENTIFY with that group, and your DNA proves you don't have any kind of significant connection with that group, are you going to be charged with lying on the 4473???
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 01:29 PM   #54
RETG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2009
Location: Somewhere in Idaho
Posts: 387
Good point. The choices under "Race" are
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

My question has always been....
If actually born in South Africa and white...which choice is correct.
__________________
You ask a question, I will answer with my opinion; don't like it, don't use it. I won't care!
RETG is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 02:16 PM   #55
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
44 AMP Gentlemen, I think this is becoming a bit irrelevant. IF Elizabeth Warren, or any one else checks a racial/ethnic box they aren't "qualified" for, what's going to happen??

IF your DNA test comes back saying you are 0.1% sasquatch can you check the sasquatch box?? Is the govt doing DNA checks to ensure you're ONLY checking the appropriate boxes on the 4473? I don't think so...

If you check the "wrong" box because you IDENTIFY with that group, and your DNA proves you don't have any kind of significant connection with that group, are you going to be charged with lying on the 4473???
Ask Bruce Abramski.
He lied on a 4473 that he was the actual buyer, was convicted and appealed to the USSC and lost.
Now, he likely would never have been caught if he wasn't being investigated for other crimes, where a search warrant turned up a check from his uncle that was payment for a Glock that Abramski bought using his police discount. No one would have ever seen his 4473 if they hadn't followed up on that check. When Abramski signed that 4473 its was under penalty of law.....a law that he violated by identifying himself as the actual buyer/transferee.

If I were to check off "Hispanic" & "Asian' of which I know am neither, and sign the 4473 I have committed a Federal crime. Although ATF/FBI/Texas Rangers/Mayberry PD may never see that 4473, that doesn't make it any less of a crime. It isn't something to be flippant about and I highly recommend educating oneself with the instructions.

Note that a Form 4473 is a one page of the buyers info, one page on the verification/recording of his ID info and a half page on the firearm info......and three and a half pages of instructions and definitions that no one bothers to read. Yet they'll fill out that first page in under a minute making numerous errors that a dealer will do his best to catch. I've asked more than one lily white red head "are you sure you're Native American?" If he's positive then the consequences are on him.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

Last edited by dogtown tom; February 1, 2020 at 02:24 PM.
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 02:20 PM   #56
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
RETG Good point. The choices under "Race" are
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

My question has always been....
If actually born in South Africa and white...which choice is correct
.
You answered your own question.
WHERE you were born is immaterial.
Remember, the instructions are there for a reason.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 03:50 PM   #57
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 3,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
To anyone with a lick of common sense that there....is tribal affiliation or community association, but NOT a member of the tribe. Meaning the child could select Native American on the Form 4473.
Emphasis added. That begs the question. Assuming "common sense" would prevail on any point in a federally regulated matter is a bet one can lose.

An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary". Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate".

"Community attachment" does seem to mean something more broad than enrollment. I'll guess that liking untaxed cigarettes is less community attachment than most would accept for checking that box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Regarding the meaning of "tribal affiliation or community association", the government doesn't have to provide a definition of every word or term in a document, instead they rely on the ordinary meaning rule: "a principle of statutory interpretation that when a word is not defined in a statute or other legal instrument, the court normally construes it in accordance with its ordinary or natural meaning. This rule guides courts faced with litigation that turns on the meaning of a term not defined by the statute, or on that of a word found within a definition itself."
That is a normal court rule and might have saved the federal government this heaving mess of a category if they hadn't provided the definitions at all, or even better if they'd not provided the section at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4473 instructions, in part
3) Black or African American - A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa....5) White - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.
Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." So what good comes of checking such a box?

Assuming that good sense untangles the 4473 knot is a leap.

Last edited by zukiphile; February 1, 2020 at 03:56 PM.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 07:16 PM   #58
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
zukiphile ....An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary".
Not according to Websters:
Definition of affiliation: the state or relation of being closely associated or affiliated with a particular person, group, party, company, etc.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliation



Quote:
Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate".
"Enrollment" is a term used by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. If the two were synonymous I'm sure it would have been used instead. But it wasn't.

Quote:
"Community attachment" does seem to mean something more broad than enrollment. I'll guess that liking untaxed cigarettes is less community attachment than most would accept for checking that box.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 07:28 PM   #59
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
zukiphile ....Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." So what good comes of checking such a box?
Really? Got a source for those original peoples of Europe with Black skin?
In several thousand transfers to customers who chose Black or African American I can only recall one who chose more than just Black, he also chose Hawaiian and one other I believe.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 10:06 PM   #60
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,017
OK, taking another look at the 4473 in the link, it appears Hispanic/non Hispanic must be answered, and can only be one or the other.

But the instructions for the race block say "select one or more". To me that says that if you know you are mixed race, then you simply check more than one box. Doesn't seem that complex. If you're more than one thing, you check more than one box.

As far as the Abramski case, evidence indicated there was a deliberate attempt to deceive, and thereby violate the law.

I'd like to think that simple mistake due to lack of information would be treaked differently by the courts. Still a technical violation of law but without intent, should make a difference.

In my case, I can trace my mother's family in a direct line back to 1555 and a collateral branch back to 1056. "White" Europeans, all. On my father's side, the line stops "dead" with his parents. There is no information beyond their names and dates. All family records were destroyed in a fire somewhere around 1900 or so.

SO, my father's side could POSSIBLY contain more than traces of other racial groups. I don't know, and I don't have (and am not getting a DNA test just to find out). SO, I might be qualified to check other boxes, but I don't. I only check the one I'm sure of. Am I committing a federal crime by NOT checking boxes I don't know for sure I should?

To me that's a much different matter than claiming "first people" status to get admission to a college or something like that and decades later having the DNA say "you are only 0.01%-1.6%" of the claimed status.

Not going to lose any sleep over it, either way.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 10:17 PM   #61
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,883
Quote:
Am I committing a federal crime by NOT checking boxes I don't know for sure I should?
NO. Absolutely not.

There is absolutely nothing in any laws that requires a person to know their ancestry to an exhaustively accurate extent. When the law requires all citizens to get DNA tests and submit the results to the government, then you will know that the situation has changed.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 08:25 AM   #62
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 3,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by dog town tom
Quote:
An "affiliation" describes a sort of official status, as do "agent" or "subsidiary".
Not according to Websters:
Definition of affiliation: the state or relation of being closely associated or affiliated with a particular person, group, party, company, etc.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affiliation
An "affiliation" is the state in which an affiliate exists.

Quote:
NOUN
affiliates (plural noun)
a person or organization officially attached to a larger body.
"the company established links with British affiliates"
synonyms:
office · bureau · agency · subsidiary · offshoot · satellite · chapter · lodge
https://www.bing.com/search?q=affili...&setlang=en-US

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Quote:
Affiliation with some tribes is a matter of economic importance and can be resolved by enrollment. If it isn't clear that something different is intended, "affiliation" could just be a synonym for enrollment, exhibiting the kind of redundancy observed in other contexts, e.g. "true and accurate".
"Enrollment" is a term used by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. If the two were synonymous I'm sure it would have been used instead. But it wasn't.
Where the instructions are as poorly drafted and insufficiently considered as they've already been shown to be, certainty that the drafters eschewed a tradition of using two synonyms has no reasonable basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Quote:
Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." So what good comes of checking such a box?
Really? Got a source for those original peoples of Europe with Black skin?
The assertion is not that there are "original peoples of Europe with Black skin".

Instead, the assertion to which you've responded is that "Most people in the US who identify as "Black" have some "origins in any of the original peoples of Europe..." and so can properly check "White" according to 4473 instructions even where their phenotype and social identity may be "Black" or "African American".

We stopped importing people from Africa more than two centuries ago, and interbreeding has been a common pattern, perhaps more in the past than currently. A country in which Rachel Dolezal successfully passed as "Black" is one in which mixed race people with even the slightest bit of remaining sub-Saharan phenotype can identify as "Black", even where they are primarily of European descent.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 10:53 AM   #63
TomNJVA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2014
Location: Floyd, VA
Posts: 196
This whole issue of precisely stating gender and race seems a mute point. Unless one grossly and intentionally misstates their race or gender (e.g.black vs white or male vs female) and with malicious intent I cannot imaging a federal prosecutor pursuing the case. So long as one enters what they believe best describes themselves they're fine. If one intentionally deceives with malice, then they deserve to be prosecuted.
__________________
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.
TomNJVA is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 01:18 PM   #64
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 13,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomNJVA
This whole issue of precisely stating gender and race seems a mute point. Unless one grossly and intentionally misstates their race or gender (e.g.black vs white or male vs female) and with malicious intent I cannot imaging a federal prosecutor pursuing the case. So long as one enters what they believe best describes themselves they're fine. If one intentionally deceives with malice, then they deserve to be prosecuted.
If they had just asked the question, as it appears on Page 1, I would agree with you. But they added an instruction, and the instruction imposes some rather odd qualifiers on who is [properly] allowed to check the box for American Indian or Alaska Native. According to the instructions, it's not enough to simply have some American Indian or Alaska Native blood in your ancestry, you must also either maintain a tribal affiliation, or maintain a community attachment.

Those are requirements .... but, as I have been pointing out, nowhere do the instructions or anything else I've been able to find explain what "tribal affiliation" or "community attachment" means. More to your post -- those conditions apply ONLY to American Indians and Alaska Natives. There is no requirement for a black person to maintain a tribal affiliation or community association. Likewise for a Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. There is no requirement for people of Asian ancestry to maintain any sort of community (cultural?) attachment to the land or people or customs of their ancestry.

Another example: My roommate in graduate school is Chinese American. Actually, he's American -- his mother and father were Chinese American. My roommate is almost 100% Chinese by DNA, but he was born and raised in Virginia, grew up hanging around with American kids, speaks zero Chinese, has no ties to China, and his wife is a stereotypical Italian American. If he were to buy a firearm, he should check the box for "Asian" -- even though his entire goal in life was to be the all-American boy, and the fact that he maintains no cultural associations of any sort with the land of his ancestors.

Why is that limiting condition applied to American Indians and Alaska Natives, but not o any of the other "racial" groups? It doesn't make any sense. It makes even lewss sense when you realize that the instructions aren't even clear as to what the limitations mean.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 02:52 PM   #65
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Aguila Blanca ....Another example: My roommate in graduate school is Chinese American. Actually, he's American -- his mother and father were Chinese American. My roommate is almost 100% Chinese by DNA, but he was born and raised in Virginia, grew up hanging around with American kids, speaks zero Chinese, has no ties to China, and his wife is a stereotypical Italian American. If he were to buy a firearm, he should check the box for "Asian" -- even though his entire goal in life was to be the all-American boy, and the fact that he maintains no cultural associations of any sort with the land of his ancestors.
Oh good grief. "American" is not a Race.

You continue to ignore the point of the buyers identifying information:
Again........the descriptive information given by a buyer on the Form 4473 is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations.


Quote:
Why is that limiting condition applied to American Indians and Alaska Natives, but not o any of the other "racial" groups? It doesn't make any sense. It makes even lewss sense when you realize that the instructions aren't even clear as to what the limitations mean.
You are asking the wrong crowd. Again, OMB.
If OMB wanted they could offer thousands of little checkboxes: Indian, Inuit, Aborigine....but for goodness sakes a heck of a lot more ethnicities than Hispanic. But at some point, probably around page thirty, they would realize the 4473 is kinda thick and all those hundreds of choices don't aid or help in the buyers identification.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 02:55 PM   #66
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
I kinda doubt Bing is the dictionary used by the US courts.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 03:19 PM   #67
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 13,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Oh good grief. "American" is not a Race.
No, but "Asian" is one of the choices under Race. And look at what that category encompasses:

Quote:
(2) Asian - A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam;
My point was that my former roommate can (and should) check the Asian box if he buys a gun, yet if he were Native American rather than Chinese American, he wouldn't hit either of the two supplementary conditions that apply only to American Indians and Alaska Natives. A full-blood Navajo who was raised in Alexandria, Virginia, and who was educated at The Friends School and an Ivy League university, who married an Italian American wife, does not maintain any "tribal affiliation" and does not maintain any "community association" with the Navajo tribe. So why is the Navajo not allowed to check the American Indian box but my friend is allowed (and required) to check the Asian box?

Used for identification? People from India (in general) don't look anything like people from China or Japan. In fact, (in general) people from Japan don't actually look a whole lot like people from Korea. Many (Asian) Indians don't regard India as part of Asia at all. The classifications are arbitrary, and they were not developed just for background checks and criminal investigations.

Tom, your position is inconsistent. On one hand, you say the information "is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations." But then you say the classifications come from the OMB -- which is true. And various federal and state agencies all use those same classifications, and not solely for background checks and criminal investigations. The classification information may also be used for determining who is or is not eligible for certain programs and/or benefits.

All I'm saying is that the choice for American Indian or Alaska Native, per the 4473 instructions, imposes certain unexplained limitations on who is supposed to check that box, limitations that do not apply to any of the other choices. I don't think the instructions are clear as to what the two possible qualifiers mean; you apparently don't see any lack of clarity.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 04:46 PM   #68
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 3,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
I kinda doubt Bing is the dictionary used by the US courts.
Tom, you've confused the authority with the link to the authority. The definition linked is the Oxford entry.
zukiphile is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 08:12 PM   #69
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Aguila Blanca
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Oh good grief. "American" is not a Race.
No, but "Asian" is one of the choices under Race.
I know. I've known for years.
But you wrote the following:
Actually, he's American -- his mother and father were Chinese American. My roommate is almost 100% Chinese by DNA, but he was born and raised in Virginia, grew up hanging around with American kids, speaks zero Chinese, has no ties to China, and his wife is a stereotypical Italian American. If he were to buy a firearm, he should check the box for "Asian" -- even though his entire goal in life was to be the all-American boy, and the fact that he maintains no cultural associations of any sort with the land of his ancestors.
"Even though".......implies that choosing "Asian" is somehow incorrect....because he's always wanted to be "the All American boy".



Quote:
My point was that my former roommate can (and should) check the Asian box if he buys a gun, yet if he were Native American rather than Chinese American, he wouldn't hit either of the two supplementary conditions that apply only to American Indians and Alaska Natives. A full-blood Navajo who was raised in Alexandria, Virginia, and who was educated at The Friends School and an Ivy League university, who married an Italian American wife, does not maintain any "tribal affiliation" and does not maintain any "community association" with the Navajo tribe. So why is the Navajo not allowed to check the American Indian box but my friend is allowed (and required) to check the Asian box?
Again for 87th time......you are asking the wrong folks. If you don't like the instructions on the 4473 any response in this forum won't make you happy. And I doubt the answer you get from OMB will either.


Quote:
Used for identification? People from India (in general) don't look anything like people from China or Japan. In fact, (in general) people from Japan don't actually look a whole lot like people from Korea. Many (Asian) Indians don't regard India as part of Asia at all. The classifications are arbitrary, and they were not developed just for background checks and criminal investigations.
I swear I've repeated this several times, I'll try once again.
1. The Race & Ethnicity question and options were required by OMB...on all federal documents that ask such identifying questions.
2. The Form 4473 says right there in the instructions to 10a and 10b: "Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.124(c)(1)) require
licensees to obtain the race of the transferee/buyer. This information helps the FBI and/or State POC make or rule out potential matches during the background check process and can assist with criminal investigations."

You might disagree with that, I don't. But arguing with me isn't going to change the mind of the FBI or State POC on the information gathered or how they use it.


Quote:
Tom, your position is inconsistent. On one hand, you say the information "is used by the FBI or State POC during the background check process and in criminal investigations."
Horsehockey, I DON'T SAY THAT.....ATF DOES!!!! I've begged you to read the darn instructions, yet you continue to confuse what you think is my beliefs and opinions with what is printed in the 4473 instructions.


Quote:
But then you say the classifications come from the OMB -- which is true. And various federal and state agencies all use those same classifications, and not solely for background checks and criminal investigations. The classification information may also be used for determining who is or is not eligible for certain programs and/or benefits.
Oh good grief. There nothing inconsistent with that.


Quote:
All I'm saying is that the choice for American Indian or Alaska Native, per the 4473 instructions, imposes certain unexplained limitations on who is supposed to check that box, limitations that do not apply to any of the other choices.
No kidding. Have I disagreed at any point in this thread that Native Americans have to have a tribal affiliation or community attachment? NO I HAVE NOT!


Quote:
I don't think the instructions are clear as to what the two possible qualifiers mean; you apparently don't see any lack of clarity.
I don't and I've yet to have a customer to get his panties in a wad because of those instructions.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old February 4, 2020, 09:14 PM   #70
riffraff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2016
Posts: 629
My understanding was address need not match your driver's license provided you can show some government issued proof of the address used, ie property tax bill, auto registration, etc.. specifically this came up regarding someone with a primary residence and DL in one state but a secondary residence where they were purchasing a gun in another.

I'm also pretty sure a passport allows buying guns and such has no address. Is that true?
riffraff is offline  
Old February 4, 2020, 09:23 PM   #71
riffraff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2016
Posts: 629
Just answered my own question, law says any combination of documents that establishes picture, name, and residency is good to go. So theoretically a passport, which has no such address, and a government document matching the name and specifying address, would meet it.
riffraff is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10612 seconds with 8 queries