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Old December 27, 2019, 01:20 AM   #26
NobodyJones
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Honestly, I am surprised that because of my anti-Wayne LaPierre post and my refusing to rejoin the NFPA because of him and Ted Nugent, that I wasn't publicly tarred and feathered.

I wish they could fix their problems and become a reliable public voice for firearm owners once again. Sadly I just don't see that happening.
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Old December 27, 2019, 11:48 AM   #27
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I missed this part of your post yesterday...

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Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
Let's not confuse electoral efficacy with who most closely matches our own views. Hardly anyone knows who Larry Pratt is and even fewer care. That isn't to demean him or you, but to note that he is a little fish. little fish aren't scary.
If you are implying that as a "big fish" the NRA is scary to the left...
Well you truly are out of touch

I do not mean that as a personal insult
But rather as a state of being... of most of the gun community

THE LEFT DOES NOT FEAR THE NRA
Not in any way shape or form

The left actually likes the NRA right where they are...
Weak
Ineffective
Vacuuming up cash
And placating gun owners
All while giving their base a common enemy to "freeze, polarize, and attack"
They know they are already winning by attrition, the NRA is simply a minor distraction

Now what is currently happening in VA, you best bet that worries them to a certain extent

But make no mistake, what is being done there by the left is another 3D chess move on their part. They are pushing just to see what kind of reaction we muster, they are "probing the lines" so to speak.
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Old December 27, 2019, 11:56 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyJones View Post
Honestly, I am surprised that because of my anti-Wayne LaPierre post and my refusing to rejoin the NFPA because of him and Ted Nugent, that I wasn't publicly tarred and feathered.

I wish they could fix their problems and become a reliable public voice for firearm owners once again. Sadly I just don't see that happening.
A different time, a different forum, you very well might be. I regularly get burned at the stake and called every nome in the book for daring to be critical of them. But I believe many gun owners are starting to see the light regarding the NRA and their ways.

They have been at the helm for decades as the ship slowly sinks, and some will argue that the ship would already be on the bottom if it weren't for the NRA. But I see otherwise and I believe many are starting to see the light as well as well.
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Old December 27, 2019, 01:16 PM   #29
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The NRA has done a lot of good. WLP has done a lot of good. But the perception now (it may not be true but I think it is) is that Wayne has been using NRA funds as his own personal piggy bank, tried to steal money from NR-ILA for the general fund (so he could mismanage that too), and has a cozy agreement with law firms and advertisement agencies that looks highly suspicious if not conflicts of interest. And the BoD just sits on their hands. Whether it's true or not, Wayne needs to leave for the good of the organization because he's toxic right now; that he doesn't speaks volumes.

I've trusted used car salesmen a lot more than I trust WLP. I suspect he and some of the board members should spend a couple of years in prison. Maybe what's left of the NRA can then do that phoenix thing.
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Old December 27, 2019, 01:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900
If you are implying that as a "big fish" the NRA is scary to the left...
Well you truly are out of touch

I do not mean that as a personal insult
But rather as a state of being... of most of the gun community

THE LEFT DOES NOT FEAR THE NRA
Not in any way shape or form
I think that's the point. The left used to fear the NRA, when the left knew that the NRA could mobilize millions of votes. Now that the NRA is self-immolating, the left is like a bunch of sharks smelling blood in the water.

And that's the primary issue with LaPierre, and his main sycophants on the board of directors -- they are putting their own selfish interests above the interests of the organization. LaPierre should be able to see (and I think he does) that, regardless of whether or not his closet is devoid of skeletons, he is toxic. He is now a divisive element rather than a rallying point. If he actually cared about the NRA and the Second Amendment, he would retire "for the good of the service" and let the reins go to a new leader who can unite the organization and get it back on track.

The fact that LaPierre refuses to retire is (IMHO) proof positive that he doesn't care about the NRA or the Second Amendment, he only cares about Wayne LaPierre.

The "old" NRA was regarded as the 800 pound gorilla in the room. If the NRA goes under, what pro-gun pro-2A organization is poised to take on that role? I don't think the SAF or GOA is prepared for such a role, and (again IMHO) there's simply nobody else waiting in the wings as the understudy.
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Old December 27, 2019, 02:12 PM   #31
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I could not agree more.

As for "taking over the role"...
I do not believe it needs to be, or even should be a singular entity.
The left has great success locally and regionally, and historically larger numbers of smaller groups being more wide spread tended to be some of the most effective (think gorilla tactics).

Look to the TEA Party movement a decade ago, it scared the crap out of both sides as they could not control it. Politicians on the right by and large hated it as much as the ones on the left. It collapsed in large part due to the lefts control of the media and the constant 24/7 belittlement of its supporters, average joe/jane citizen just got tired of being called racists, nazi's, stupid, etc, and did not have the willpower to hang in.

They gave up

If gun owners, Constitutionalists, Liberty advocates, Etc could muster the same excitement and hang in for the long haul, we could pull it off (the saving of the Republic). I just don't know if "we" have the willpower yet, I'm leaning towards not. That's why I truly believe the collapse of the NRA could be a good thing as it might finally be the slap in the face that motivates more to get involved and in more meaningful, effective ways.

Collectively our side is absurdly apathetic and lazy, that is a fact

I belong to a large number of gun/sporting/outdoor forums, most of which I joined back in the mid to late 90's (I'm really not that old....am I ) The steady decline I've seen over these many years, along with the utter denial I see of supposed "Liberty minded individuals" towards our current state and direction is truly frightening to me. On our current course we WILL lose all of our gun rights along with a great many other Liberty's.

Some call that negative, pessimistic, defeatist, etc... I call it reality.

When Lt Col Moore called in artillery and air strikes on his own positions at La Drang, was he being a defeatist? Nope He simply recognized the position they were in, he knew the dire straits, and did what he thought most effective even though it was brutal. I believe we are in a similar sort of position with our dying Liberty, if collectively we do not recognize how screwed we are, and take drastic measures now... we're done.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I think that's the point. The left used to fear the NRA, when the left knew that the NRA could mobilize millions of votes. Now that the NRA is self-immolating, the left is like a bunch of sharks smelling blood in the water.

And that's the primary issue with LaPierre, and his main sycophants on the board of directors -- they are putting their own selfish interests above the interests of the organization. LaPierre should be able to see (and I think he does) that, regardless of whether or not his closet is devoid of skeletons, he is toxic. He is now a divisive element rather than a rallying point. If he actually cared about the NRA and the Second Amendment, he would retire "for the good of the service" and let the reins go to a new leader who can unite the organization and get it back on track.

The fact that LaPierre refuses to retire is (IMHO) proof positive that he doesn't care about the NRA or the Second Amendment, he only cares about Wayne LaPierre.

The "old" NRA was regarded as the 800 pound gorilla in the room. If the NRA goes under, what pro-gun pro-2A organization is poised to take on that role? I don't think the SAF or GOA is prepared for such a role, and (again IMHO) there's simply nobody else waiting in the wings as the understudy.
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Old December 27, 2019, 06:49 PM   #32
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You'll know the NRA crisis is serious when a Republican pro-gun politician rejects their campaign contributions for the reasons outlined well in this thread. And before they run out of money. I'm not holding my breath.

If I had to guess I'd say that Wayne has a finger to the wind and he's busy sewing up a nice golden parachute while hoping for a Democrat to beat Trump in 2020. He doesn't care as much about our rights as he does about scaring us. That's worked out pretty well for him so far.
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Old December 28, 2019, 12:35 AM   #33
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It is this simple. The NRA is weakened by the current leadership. Bloomberg and his chrony’s have gone full money dump to promote this weakness.

The NRA needs to reorganize under new leadership and new rules to revitalize the board. It is a great organization, but without strength and representation of its members, it will fall.

We as gun owners need to comeback and crush Bloomberg as well as start naming our own political candidates. We need to quit supporting the weak candidates that don’t aggressively go after gun control elimination.
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Old December 28, 2019, 01:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mainah
If I had to guess I'd say that Wayne has a finger to the wind and he's busy sewing up a nice golden parachute while hoping for a Democrat to beat Trump in 2020.
My understanding, from articles that came out fairly early in the course of the internal squabbles staring to go public, is that Wayne already has a dandy golden parachute.
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Old December 28, 2019, 01:55 AM   #35
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It's all about money!

It's all about money: I feel duped by the avalanche of it's the end of the world gun talk. While this talk was going on the NRA insiders were stuffing their pockets with cash. Nobody, I mean nobody, is going to convince me that the looting was a one man job. You got to give Wayne and the clique points for being able to circle the wagons when the issues of misspent money came up. When the looting issue comes up, it is countered with they'll get your guns. What a con job. I'd say much of the NRA's problems has to do with people being played for suckers. Others will defend to the end Wayne and the others. Those guys are defending our rights! The insiders get the the "gold mine" and the outsiders get the "shaft." Wayne and the crew are making water on your back and calling it rain.
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Old December 28, 2019, 05:59 AM   #36
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WE ARE THE NRA! If we keep supporting the organization with our dues and if we are lifers and not voicing our opinions, the organization will not change! How about a mass resignation of members? That would be a scary scenario for the leftists, as they will see gun owners as still supporting the original mission of the NRA & still united.
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Old December 28, 2019, 08:33 AM   #37
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The people who make up the NRA are still there, even if the NRA goes away. And for that matter, as much as the anti-2A crowd hates the NRA, they really won’t like what replaces it.

Neither will politicians, particularly the GOP politicians who believe the NRA’s opposition to registration a.k.a universal background checks and confiscation without due process a.k.a red flag laws are costing them the votes of the “You’ll shoot your eye out” crowd in suburbia.

Because that’s the perceived battleground now... suburban moms. Bloomberg has convinced Republicans and Democrats both that suburban moms want gun control - partly because Bloomberg encourages reporters to terrorize suburban moms by playing up every story of guns being used to shoot up Walmarts or schools in the attempt to create a moral panic that doesn’t reflect more common threats.

The Democrats reaction has been to go full unmasked gun grabber. However, the GOP is grumbling quite a bit about losing the House majority and they would happily give us both UBCs and red flag laws if they thought they could regain it.

I mean, there are candidates running for statewide office in 2020 on a “We are going to ban the AR15” platform in Texas. At a base level, we have to diminush that fear in the suburbs because that is the growth area for future 2A expansion and the source of our recent political weakness both.

I took out a couple who fits that demographic - suburban, educated. Guy owns guns. Wife hates guns and doesn’t want them in the house or the kids touching them. We broke out an air rifle and shot tin cans in the backyard.

Once she saw it could be a positive bonding experience for the whole family and not just a needless risk sitting in the garage waiting to bite her family, she was more willing to consider other points of view on the matter. I wouldn’t say she’s converted by any means; but her opinions on firearms have certainly shifted and more importantly, she understands she has been deceived by the media.

If we are going to change the culture, that’s how it will happen and the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that actually understands that - whatever its faults might be.
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Old December 28, 2019, 08:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
However, the GOP is grumbling quite a bit about losing the House majority and they would happily give us both UBCs and red flag laws if they thought they could regain it.
Speaks volumes..if a few would just have 'the courage of their convictions' and not just worried about being professional liars so they get re-elected..
Quote:
Once she saw it could be a positive bonding experience for the whole family and not just a needless risk sitting in the garage waiting to bite her family, she was more willing to consider other points of view on the matter. I wouldn’t say she’s converted by any means; but her opinions on firearms have certainly shifted and more importantly, she understands she has been deceived by the media.
Copy to Wayne LP and the NRA...'positive bonding experience', safety oriented fun, not the 'bad guy with a gun', warfare, combat, scare tactics..
Quote:
I took out a couple who fits that demographic - suburban, educated. Guy owns guns.
Bet he doesn't belong to the NRA...another in the (guessing) YUGE, un affiliated politically, middle....
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Old December 28, 2019, 10:01 AM   #39
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Copy to Wayne LP and the NRA...'positive bonding experience', safety oriented fun, not the 'bad guy with a gun', warfare, combat, scare tactics..
Why would WLP follow that strategy when the failure of that strategy is exactly what caused the first NRA revolution? People are complicated creatures. You need a strategy that is multi-pronged.

Furthermore, your average suburban gun owner is a lot more likely to own a gun for self-defense than they are to own a gun for hunting or recreation - because there aren’t a lot of places that combine safely using a firearm with a fun experience in suburbia.

You blame the NRA for “combat scare tactics” but the NRA plays an important role in educating gun owners about the realities of self-defense with a firearm so that they don’t do stupid things that hurt the 2A like leaving firearms unsecured in vehicles or waving your gun at people like a magic talisman.

I’d suggest what you see as “scare tactics” is more an attempt to address and promote good practices in the single fastest growing segment of the shooting public. Kids who spent their youth playing “Call of Duty” don’t really care about shooting deer or 10m air rifle for the most part. They want to shoot an AR15. And we are fast approaching the technological point where they’ll have one if they want it, legal or not. So at a policy level, we’re really just discussing how ignorant they are going to be when that happens.
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Old December 28, 2019, 10:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
The people who make up the NRA are still there, even if the NRA goes away. And for that matter, as much as the anti-2A crowd hates the NRA, they really won’t like what replaces it.
Agreed
I believe this is where the collapse of the NRA would be a huge win for 2A rights
Replace them with really pissed off people ready for a proper (legal) fight to protect rights
A gorilla style political street fight in every state and major city is something the left would struggle countering

Quote:
Neither will politicians, particularly the GOP politicians who believe the NRA’s opposition to registration a.k.a universal background checks and confiscation without due process a.k.a red flag laws are costing them the votes of the “You’ll shoot your eye out” crowd in suburbia.
Correct
Your words proven true by yet another useless "R" promoting more 2A infringements
Bobby Orrock Republican VA pushing FOID

Quote:
If we are going to change the culture, that’s how it will happen and the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that actually understands that
On this one I will have to completely disagree with you
The NRA does not understand that, not at any level, they are completely out of touch
The leadership is out of touch
The structure of the organization is out of touch
The vast majority of the membership is out of touch

Unfortunately our culture has shifted so far that the quaint image of a father and son going hunting is nearly gone
Sure there are many that still do it, but those numbers are dwindling fast
For every contrary anecdote, there are ten more kids with their face glued to a smart phone
That is simple reality, the culture has shifted, and it continues to shift

Thus the NRA can do all the restructuring and rebranding they like, they will always be the "Fudds" of the firearm community
On the flip side there are other organizations, and many are more "in step" with current culture than the NRA
Further, new organizations can and should be started that are more in line with todays kids and young adults

Here is a quick example, which video is more in step with 2020, and would attract more youth...

VIDEO A

VIDEO B
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Old December 28, 2019, 10:32 AM   #41
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TBM900, the reason I say the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that understands that is because they are the only ones teaching gun safety, range safety, and promoting places where people who want to shoot can.

It doesn’t matter how much the John Wick video resonates with the current culture if there is no place to go shoot or nothing to shoot with. Even states that think the NRA is the devil incarnate rely on the NRA for safety advice. After the Supreme Court ruling in McDonald, the city of Chicago refused to let any gun range operate anywhere in the city. So you had the right to own a gun in the city; but no place to legally shoot it without leaving the city.

While several pro-2A groups helped with litigating that problem, there was only one that had the existing infrastructure and knowledge base to actually build a safe range within the Chicago city limits that would survive the intense scrutiny IF the litigation was successful
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Old December 28, 2019, 11:01 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Furthermore, your average suburban gun owner is a lot more likely to own a gun for self-defense than they are to own a gun for hunting or recreation - because there aren’t a lot of places that combine safely using a firearm with a fun experience in suburbia.
Oh, how true.

I live in the northeast, in what is now a suburb. (It was a rural, farming community when my parents built the house, on what was a remote corner of my great-grandmother's farm.) My town has an ordinance prohibiting the discharge of any firearm, BB gun, pellet gun, or bow and arrow anywhere in town. A number of other towns and cities around the state have similar ordinances. There are NO free, public ranges in this state.

For me to shoot, I have to drive 45 minutes to an indoor range. There is another, newer one that's a few minutes closer, but not enough closer to make me switch. No rifles other than rimfire. Longest distance is 25 yards. There are gun clubs around the state with outdoor ranges that typically go up to 100 yards, but they are prohibitively expensive, require varying amounts of volunteer time (which is understandable, but I don't have the time), and they all require a recommendation by at least two current members and they have waiting lists ranging from three to ten years. When I really feel the urge to shoot rifles, I call up a friend in another state and invite myself to visit him for a weekend.

People who live in other parts of the country, where there is more, easier, and less expensive access to shooting venues, have no comprehension of how difficult it is to be involved in shooting sports in some of the most heavily populated regions of the country.

There are other factors that make it even less convenient. For example, I live half an hour west of the VA hospital where I get much of my health care. The range where I shoot is half an hour east of the VA hospital. It would be great if I could toss my range bag in the car, go to an appointment, and then continue on to the range. BUT ... federal law prohibits possession of firearms on VA property. I wanted to shoot yesterday, and I had a 12:00 appointment at the VA hospital. I had to go to the hospital, then backtrack to home to pick up my gun and range gear, and then retrace (partially) the route I had just driven to go to the range.

Being a shooter around here is not a casual sport. You have to really WANT to shoot, and make some serious commitments and compromises.
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Old December 28, 2019, 02:13 PM   #43
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And to drive the point home, imagine you find the John Wick video very compelling and so you go to your average suburban range which is indoors, hopefully decently ventilated and not overcrowded, probably has a 25yd max range and the kind of lowest-common-denominator strict safety rules that get created when someone with minimal experience tries to unsuccessfully duplicate what they saw in a Taran Butler video.

How is that person going to feel about shooting then?
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Old December 28, 2019, 02:23 PM   #44
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Can't blame the ranges for needing to have safety rules.

A couple of years ago, at the indoor range, I went downstairs to the actual range area and, as I walked in, I saw a father with his young son. Great, right? No ... NOT great. The kid wasn't tall enough to see over the bench, so the father had gone out to the spectator area and brought in one of those molded plastic patio chairs (you know -- the ones that have legs the collapse if you lean back in them) and had the kid standing on this flimsy chair to shoot.

Like the chairs in this image: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....1GjF9Fo52L.jpg

I'm not a range officer for this range, but I am a certified range safety officer, and I didn't even take the time to go upstairs and rat the guy out. I just told him to stop doing that RIGHT NOW. (The range owner later thanked me.)

Some people don't have enough brains to come in out of the rain ... and they breed.
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Old December 28, 2019, 02:53 PM   #45
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Certainly, ranges need rules. And the closer you are to population centers, the more your rules will have to be designed around idiots because population density means you’ll encounter idiots more frequently.

My complaint is with ranges that do a “one size fits all” set of rules geared to the lowest common denominator. In a large urban area like Dallas, that is basically assuming every customer is a halfwit who will attempt to kill you and whether it was intentional will be the only unknown.

Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.

That’s a win for the 2A, a win for the customer, and a win for the range who can charge extra for such certifications and training. But it also requires a trained, knowledgable staff and proper range facilities.
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Old December 28, 2019, 03:17 PM   #46
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Following the passage of the 1994 AWB pundits were crowing the NRA was "finished." It probably could use a house cleaning such as occurred in Cleveland in 1977.
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Old December 28, 2019, 07:21 PM   #47
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Following the passage of the 1994 AWB pundits were crowing the NRA was "finished." It probably could use a house cleaning such as occurred in Cleveland in 1977.
Not possible. (Or at least exceedingly unlikely and difficult.) They (meaning the inner clique) "fixed" the by-laws about three (or so) years ago to ensure that such shenanigans by the membership can't possibly happen again. The deck is now completely stacked against the membership at large.
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Old December 28, 2019, 11:05 PM   #48
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Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.
Maybe rent them a rubber pellet shooting gun the first time, steel BB gun the next time, then 22 cb the 3rd, then 22 lr, .....after a few times with 22lr, then they can rent a real gun?

Ok, as long as I can test out by showing the staff my competence in about 10s.
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Old December 28, 2019, 11:41 PM   #49
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WLP is in it for himself. he might say otherwise, but if you look at the damage of him staying on when he's been passed it for some time vs. new blood coming in, he clearly doesn't care about anything but his ego. this is what has gotten the NRA to the point it is right now. he knows it, the democrats know it, and "we" are the ones that will take the fall. in fact, with all the latest anti 2nd amendment legislation at various levels you will find the NRA leadership trying to satisfy itself and not fighting battles in court.
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:17 AM   #50
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Maybe rent them a rubber pellet shooting gun the first time, steel BB gun the next time, then 22 cb the 3rd, then 22 lr, .....after a few times with 22lr, then they can rent a real gun?
Well, considering small children are smart enough to go directly to shooting firearms, I don’t think that progression is necessary. However, your average public range shooter doesn’t have the skill base to be working from the holster (and sometimes those who do let their skill base lapse), so before I would let some random joe walk-in off the street and start working on his fast draw, I would probably require a short class and I would probably have them on a separate range than the general public if feasible.
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