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Old December 19, 2019, 11:45 AM   #26
pete2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaySendero View Post
LOL - Yeah your right:

99% of time if you tried a 30" hold over at 400 yards with my 270,
you wouldn't make a clean shot !!!

LOL - you would miss your aim point by 10" high.
Ray, your .270 is much more powerful than the normal .270. Congrats..........................
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Old December 19, 2019, 12:56 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by pete2
Ray, your .270 is much more powerful than the normal .270. Congrats................
Zeroed at 100 yards with a .270 Win you're correct, zeroed at 200 yards with the same bullet Ray is correct. It's all about perspective and you both are looking at it from different angles. Luckily you both can be right for your situations.
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Old December 19, 2019, 01:18 PM   #28
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Also keep in mind

There are different Elk. If you are heading to the North Oregon coast, bring enough gun. Roosevelt's Elk are not the same as Rocky mountain elk.

Rocky mountain Elk have great racks, and a smaller body. Roosevelt's have big bodies the rack tends to have fewer points, but are larger diameter horns.

And in the state of Oregon, should your Elk walk across highway 97 from W to E he will magically become a Rocky Mountain Elk when he is on the E side of the highway. If he walks back he changes back in to a Roosevelt's Elk.

That the way the hunting regulations read in Oregon. We have some amazingly big elk in the Saddle mountain unit.
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Old December 19, 2019, 03:52 PM   #29
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More elephants were hunted/killed with the 6.5 MS sized cartridge than any other caliber.
Well.... Maybe 7X57.

OTOH, if all hunters were as skilled at stalking and shooting as Karamojo Bell, we wouldn't need anything bigger than a 6.5X55.

Unfortunately, we have far too many "Elmer Kieth" types that want to shoot for the 'bunghole" on a running elk at 600 yards, and expect the bullet to come out of the mouth.
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Old December 19, 2019, 04:36 PM   #30
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Bell really like the .256 and the 6.5 rifle calibers. He killed over 100 elephants using them. The ammo's primers and bad brass seemed to be the real problem.
Somewhere i have a book he wrote in the 20's and he went into great detail about using the 6.5 caliber,long, around 160 grain bullets for a brain shot.
Having done many test using a 1" thick steel plate set to 300 meters and firing the 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Jap, 6.5 M/S , 6.5 Dutch and the 6.5 Swede using round nose 160 grain bullets,I can clearly see why he like the calibers. They penetrate like no other I have tried at this distance.
The sectional density just seems to be right on the money.
Years ago I did this test to dispel some really bad post on bullet performance.
I fired into the 1" thick steel block that was positioned at 300 meters and was adjusted so as the bullet would strike the face of the steel plate dead on.
The block could not move so all of the bullet energy was transferred into the steel surface ( hot rolled ) as it was welded to a rail-road rail.
He are just a couple of the test plates with notes.
notice the 6.5 Dutch round. The jacket is welded into the steel block. The bullet almost went through the 1" thick steel! The bullet was very stable in flight at 300 meters.
The other bullet was a Russian 7.62x54R heavy ball steel core. It too left a very respectable crater.
All bullets fired were military FMJ's both spitzer and Round nose.
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Old December 19, 2019, 05:15 PM   #31
reynolds357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidrob View Post
More elephants were hunted/killed with the 6.5 MS sized cartridge than any other caliber.
I think the AK47 has killed the most elephants. 7 62x39
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Old December 19, 2019, 05:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapidrob View Post
Bell really like the .256 and the 6.5 rifle calibers. He killed over 100 elephants using them. The ammo's primers and bad brass seemed to be the real problem.
Somewhere i have a book he wrote in the 20's and he went into great detail about using the 6.5 caliber,long, around 160 grain bullets for a brain shot.
Having done many test using a 1" thick steel plate set to 300 meters and firing the 6.5 Carcano, 6.5 Jap, 6.5 M/S , 6.5 Dutch and the 6.5 Swede using round nose 160 grain bullets,I can clearly see why he like the calibers. They penetrate like no other I have tried at this distance.
The sectional density just seems to be right on the money.
Years ago I did this test to dispel some really bad post on bullet performance.
I fired into the 1" thick steel block that was positioned at 300 meters and was adjusted so as the bullet would strike the face of the steel plate dead on.
The block could not move so all of the bullet energy was transferred into the steel surface ( hot rolled ) as it was welded to a rail-road rail.
He are just a couple of the test plates with notes.
notice the 6.5 Dutch round. The jacket is welded into the steel block. The bullet almost went through the 1" thick steel! The bullet was very stable in flight at 300 meters.
The other bullet was a Russian 7.62x54R heavy ball steel core. It too left a very respectable crater.
All bullets fired were military FMJ's both spitzer and Round nose.
Shooting steel does weird stuff. My sons 7-08 with a 110 ttsx punches my ar500 plates clean through at 200 yds. My 257 Wby with 87 gr bonded does the same. The same plate takes a nice dent, but stops my 338 Lapua.
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Old December 19, 2019, 08:13 PM   #33
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Quote:
samsmix wrote:

30" of drop and 30" of holdover are two different things.

That's your semantics.
I would never try a 400 yds shot holding over the back.
I pick my POA and then pick the proper dot to hit right there.
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Old December 19, 2019, 08:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
taylorce1 wrote:

Zeroed at 100 yards with a .270 Win you're correct, zeroed at 200 yards with the same bullet Ray is correct. It's all about perspective and you both are looking at it from different angles. Luckily you both can be right for your situations.
Yep - Zero my 270 at 200yds - 20" down at 400.
Anyone that would zero 270W at 100 yards and shoot at 400 probably doesn't know his rifle well enough the make that shot.
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Old December 19, 2019, 08:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RaySendero View Post
Yep - Zero my 270 at 200yds - 20" down at 400.
Anyone that would zero 270W at 100 yards and shoot at 400 probably doesn't know his rifle well enough the make that shot.
Mine is zeroed at 100. And 150 and 200 and 300 and 400 etc etc.
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Old December 19, 2019, 11:12 PM   #36
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A rifle scope with those little knobs that adjust for elevation and windage, coupled with a decent laser range finder can make longer shots more certain. Hold over is a guess. Lots of hunters are good at holdover, but many are just taking a poke at an animal. Offhand shooting is my least used method. Trigger sticks or a bipid shooting prone take the uncertainty out of shots much beyond 100 yards. Carrying Primose Trigger sticks is no biggie where I hunt. Even in the foothills packing a rifle on a sling and sticks is not a hindrance. However, my walking distances ain't that far these days.
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Old December 20, 2019, 01:12 AM   #37
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I fail to see what anyone killed elephants with has anything to do with shooting elk.

Got any idea how many hunters with 6.5s (that weren't Bell,) that elephants killed? No one does, they ain't talking...

As to the OP, look at the game laws covering where you are hunting. Some states now have minimum fl/lbs amounts for what is legal with which game. One state I knew (decades ago) required 1,000 ft/lbs for deer, 1,500 for elk.

See what (if any) the game laws say is the minimum. That's the legal minimum.

As to 400 yds, I'm in the old boy camp that thinks that if you ever take a shot at a game animal (not a varmint) at more than 300yds, you should be forced to write yourself a letter long hand, in triplicate, (no carbons) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.
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Old December 20, 2019, 06:03 AM   #38
RaySendero
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Quote:
44 AMP wrote:

As to 400 yds, I'm in the old boy camp that thinks that if you ever take a shot at a game animal (not a varmint) at more than 300yds, you should be forced to write yourself a letter long hand, in triplicate, (no carbons) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.
I resemble that comment !

That 270W is not my elk rifle - Its my favorite deer rifle.
I mentioned it only because it fit the thread topic.
Our hunting club has a rule: If coyote or hog shows up deer hunt is over.
While I practice shots to 450 yds with it, the longest shot on deer I've taken was 285 yds.
I've never missed a deer with that rifle !!!
The 270 performed well at 285 - Broke a rib going in and going out.
Now have put bullets in coyotes and hogs out past that distance.
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Old December 20, 2019, 07:06 AM   #39
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I've been known to overwatch a cattle herd during spring calving. I've seen coyotes move in for lunch during labor. Coyotes learn quick and adapt to whatever works.

The rifle is my M-70 Laredo,7mm Rem Mag. I use 162 gr Hornady SST;s.at 3050 fps.

The scope is a Leupold 30mm tube 4.5 to 14 x 50mm Mil Dot Long range with target knobs. It rests on Night Force 20 minute elevation bases.

I gathered a bunch of chrono and ballistic data on that ranch for that season and had Kenton scope knobs make a knob calibrated in yards. It goes out past 1400 yds,"Dial-a-range" I've tested it at one spot lasered at 1100 yds and it works good.At that range,I've shot groups the size of a football,roughly.

This is the same ranch I've killed most of my antelope on.

I've never used that rifle on a big game animal.

On that ranch I've used my 257 and my fake 1903A4. Both are all the rifle necessary.

I learned my lesson on a pronghorn shot of approx. 430 yds. It was a DRT instant kill. No bragging is in order. I was aiming for a behind the foreleg chest shot. I got a neck spine shot. Just a puff of breeze. It could just as easily been a gut shot. I was just lucky.

I'd rather shoot sure than far
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Old December 20, 2019, 09:32 AM   #40
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I love how these threads go....

I say “minimal recoil”, “400 yd”, “elk”, and now I’m a bad hunter, not capable of the shot, etc.

Well, with good bullets and calibers “a puff” doesn’t make a good shot a miss. In my 6.5, a puff, moves the bullet 3”. Now, I will give you that a 10mph wind will move it 9”.

Still, it is not about justifying my shooting, rest or capability....it is a simple question, right?

Ethics are important and I don’t shoot with strange wind patterns. I also don’t typically shoot 400 yds hunting. I normally shoot 100-200 yards, this years deer was taken at 350 yards. Last years ay 15 yds. This years was drt. Last years ran a bit. 400 yds is just a reasonable max capability for a hunting pattern rifle.

Now, you did answer my question.....30’06 will likely be enough round. I will probably change it to 30-06 AI for the fun of it and so I can tell it from my Garand ammo.

....and trust me, I’m happy to hear about the skilled hunter who gets close enough to their prey to smell its breath and kill it with a 6mm Carcano, 7.5 Swiss, 30-30, etc
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Old December 20, 2019, 09:52 AM   #41
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Nathan,if you re-read my posts,I think you will find I did not say anything about you,your skills,or ethics.

I talked about my experience,and my shot that could have gone wrong. Nothing about you.

I can give my best advice about a rifle with 400 yd capability without implying I hunt elk at 400 yds.I don't.

I don't know anything about you. I avoided commenting on your shooting ability. Best of luck to you.

A 3006 AI would be a great choice.The AI part helps with heavier bullets.

My Nosler book says up to 2985 fps with a 180 gr bullet and RE-22.

I'll leave it to you to decide if its mild enough.

Last edited by HiBC; December 20, 2019 at 09:57 AM.
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Old December 20, 2019, 09:59 AM   #42
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I guess I just took it wrong! I need more coffee.
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Old December 20, 2019, 06:54 PM   #43
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We had to abandon the AR500 at any range closer than 385 yards with most Military caliber centerfire cartridges. Even at 500 meters the AR500 just did not hold up well after a few hundred hits. My club had to fork out the cash and we bough AR550 steel for our targets. 1/2 inch thick will stop all cartridges at 385 and farther fired from our rifles with no damage to the face of the target.
At ranges closer than 385 we had to go to 5/8" thick AR550 steel in order to prevent damage to the targets.
Most of our targets have now been hit with several thousand rounds and are holding up very well.
As for the Elk, many of the shooters here have used the 6.5 Swede with clean kills at ranges farther than 300 yards which would be a common range here in NM.
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Old January 2, 2020, 02:51 PM   #44
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Ray Sendero, good on you man! If you haven't practiced a method enough to do it reliably, then don't. That's reasonable.

400 is my limit for this method, as that is what current practice allows for. There were years when I shot 2 to 3 times a week, and a lazered 500 would have been simple enough if there was no wind and a good rest.

2019 afforded little practice, and only a rudemntory sight in session, in a howling Chinook wind (50yds POI=POA, scope 1.75" over center of bore for a close enough 200yd zero), so shots were kept shorter. 25 to 182 yards. 4 shots, 4 dead deer.
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Last edited by samsmix; January 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Edited because one misspelled word bugged the poop outta me...lol
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Old January 2, 2020, 03:04 PM   #45
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Duplicate post
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You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
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Old January 2, 2020, 05:35 PM   #46
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400yds, Elk, light recoil = pick two.


all other things equal, I wouldn't go smaller than a 25-06.
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Old January 2, 2020, 05:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
all other things equal, I wouldn't go smaller than a 25-06.
Speaking only for myself I load my 257 AI to 3050 fps,chrono'd with a 115 gr Nosler BT.

I don't think a 25-06 has a quantum leap advantage. Some advantage,yes. But its a shade of grey.

I have other rifles,so I have not hunted elk with my 257. I would do so with confidence....at ranges I could be dead certain I would not miss a prairie dog.

Or closer. Its a little bullet. With normal twist (1 in 10) a 120 gr bullet is about tops. On elk,I think I'd give up my Ballistic Tip for a partition. Those slow down a little quicker.
I'd want to know which rib,or space between the ribs I would be hittng. I'd want to be "using my X-ray vision" to see which organs I would hit.

If I were to use a 25 cal on elk.

For myself.probably inside 200 yds...maybe less.

But I'm not telling you what to do

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Old January 2, 2020, 06:31 PM   #48
reynolds357
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458 Win Mag is marginal. Probably need 458 Lott or 460 WBY.. (I have seen Whitetails shot with the 458 Win mag and 460 Wby)
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Old January 2, 2020, 07:52 PM   #49
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I shot a white tail with my 460 the first season after I bought it. It wasn't anything spectacular. Personally, I think one of my 30-06s knock 'em down better, although dead is dead.

I have viewed a video of a young lady shoot an elk at 600+ yds using the proper bullet with a 243 Win. and the cow just laid down and that was it.

Would I have done it? Not only no, but hell no.
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Old January 2, 2020, 08:24 PM   #50
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I know of a woman who is quite successful on elk with a 257 Roberts.She uses a 100 gr Ballistic Tip (not my first choice)

I've hunted with a woman who took elk just fine with a 243.

The one I hunted with hunted at moderate range. She was great at shot placement. And t follows that she had the self discipline to not shoot when the shot was not right.I don't condemn the smaller bores

I am interested in what constitutes a "proper bullet" for shooting elk at 600 yds with a 243.
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