The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 14, 2020, 06:57 PM   #1
308Loader
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 498
.308 LAPUA Palma brass

So, a while back when cabalas was cabalas I picked up some Lapua palma brass from the bargain cave for $30. finally getting around to using it. Did some initial testing (20 rounds) with IMR4895 and was impressed, ran a ladder from 42.5 to 45.5 and couldn't see much difference in groups at 100yrds with 155gr HPBT. all had cloverleaf like touching holes. I know 5 rounds doesn't hold too much statistical value, so I will now need to ramp up the round count. looking for advise.

What increment do you move in powder charge when you run ladder tests?

100yrds or 200M for groups? (choices at my local range)

IMR4895 VS 4064, Varget, BLC2...? I will be using CCI 450 primers for now.

Do you chrono loads when looking for accuracy nodes, or just after you have identified one you like to tune?

Rifle is Rem 700P, 1-12 twist, Will also be trying this later in Savage 10T-SR 1-10 twist.

Thanks for any input.
__________________
Just a dude with stuff.
308Loader is offline  
Old February 14, 2020, 08:25 PM   #2
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
what is the max range do you plan on shooting ?

I like this guys method but I do the seating depth first then powder

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...yards.3814361/

if you just plan on 100 to 300 load up some of what shot best for you in the charge test then play with seating depths and then maybe a primer test if for a fine tuning without a chrono. If you want to stretch it out past 500 do the same thing over your chrono

I have some of that same brass is 10 years old, had sporadic annealing and has over 20 reloads, it shot really well in a stock Savage FTR type model 12. I was using Varget over 155.5 Berger Palma's
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 12:58 PM   #3
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 17,159
Dan Newberry's recommendation to use increments of 0.7% to 1.0% of the maximum charge weight works well. I tend to stick to the lower number.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 02:47 PM   #4
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,931
"...when cabalas was cabalas..." Cabela's has never been cabalas. snicker.
Ladder tests don't tell you anything about a specific load. They only tell you the POI of a load in relation to other loads.
And "Palma brass" is Lapua's marketing department.
CCI 450 primers are magnum primers. You don't need magnum primers for any of those powders. Unless that's all you have.
42.5 of IMR4895 is a full grain under the current minimum for a 155 grain bullet. That's not enough to matter though. Different manuals.
Anyway, I've found IMR4064 is more consistently accurate than IMR4895. Mind you, if you're getting one hole groups, you're done. Sight in.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 03:05 PM   #5
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 17,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir
Ladder tests don't tell you anything about a specific load. They only tell you the POI of a load in relation to other loads.
Isn't that self-contradicting? Showing how one load's POI compares to others is exactly what ladder tests are for. They reveal which load exhibits the least change in POI between itself and its immediate predecessors and successors. That's what we want to know. That's a sweet spot.

As to which primer you "need", I think the end of the article at the link Hounddawg supplied is right on point: you choose the primer that gives you the tightest grouping sweet spot. While a search for the last hundredth of an inch off group size may not appeal to most people, I've never heard anyone complain about getting groups that were too small. More precision than necessary doesn't cause any kind of problem (except maybe to one's ego, as a super-accurate load reveals every error a shooter can make).
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 05:05 PM   #6
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
I was one of half dozen Palma team members who developed loads for the first 155 grain Palma bullet from Sierra back in 1991. We used new cases, Federal 210M primers and thrown charges of powder about the burn rate of IMR4895. 20 shot groups at 1000 yards slung up in prone using metallic sights. Load selected was 45.3 grains of IMR4895 that had about 3/10ths grain spread. Tested under 3 inches for 20 shots at 600 yards from machine rest. Well under 10 inches at 1000 from prone.

A few thousand were loaded in new cases then shot by about 30 international Palma team members from around the world in a match in New Mexico. 175 record shots plus sighters at 600, 800, 900 and 1000 yards over 4 days of matches. All agreed 'was the most accurate Palma match ammo ever shot.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 15, 2020 at 05:59 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 07:05 PM   #7
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
I have found as a general rule of thumb most commonly used bullet combos will yield 3 accuracy nodes. One low, one medium and one high node. I like to use the lowest velocity that gets the job done for which ever range I am developing a load for. The less powder I am forcing down a throat the longer my effective barrel life. I also stop developing when I get consistent sub .5 MOA at 100. Wind, mirage and shooting technique errors start adding up fast past 200 yards even with a accurate load and a precise rifle

Unless you are a 1000 yard shooting god or goddess that .3 MOA load at 100 will turn into a 2 MOA load at 1000 anyway. I am back to the basics rereading M/Sgt Jim Owens (Ret) book Sight Alignment, Trigger control and the big lie for the umpteenth time trying to get my 300 yard groups down to my 100 yard groups sizes and my 600 yard groups down to the 300 yard etc etc.
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 15, 2020, 07:07 PM   #8
308Loader
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 498
"...when cabalas was cabalas..." Cabela's has never been cabalas. snicker

my bad, my written communication skills have always been a challenge for me..
you get the point.

"Ladder tests don't tell you anything about a specific load. They only tell you the POI of a load in relation to other loads."

Agreed, to a point. If a specific load groups better than another, I can always change my POA to match my POI. Clover leaf's are close to bug holes but not same. Is it not true that if the harmonics of a given load work best with my barrel, chamber and seating... this might be the better configuration to work with for a given rifle?

Need for Mag primers... correct me if I'm wrong but the point of a small rifle primer in a traditionally large primer pocket is to control the flame front. Or to say drive a hotter flame down the column of powder.

I have no empirical data to support any of these statements. this is why I ask the community here.

again thanks for any input.
__________________
Just a dude with stuff.
308Loader is offline  
Old February 16, 2020, 08:08 AM   #9
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Unless you are a 1000 yard shooting god or goddess that .3 MOA load at 100 will turn into a 2 MOA load at 1000 anyway. I am back to the basics rereading M/Sgt Jim Owens (Ret) book Sight Alignment, Trigger control and the big lie for the umpteenth time trying to get my 300 yard groups down to my 100 yard groups sizes and my 600 yard groups down to the 300 yard etc etc.
Velocity spread will cause that. A 50 fps spread with 308 ammo has about a 1/10th MOA vertical spread at 100 yards, sometimes 2 MOA at 1000 yards. Vertical stringing due to velocity spread increases with range. Typically 10% to 15% for each 100 yards past the first one.

Change the powder charge so bullets leave at the right place on the muzzle axis upswing to compensate for their drop at target range. An adjustable tuning weight on the barrel muzzle will do the same thing. Then the largest groups in MOA will be at about 60% of target range.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 16, 2020 at 08:18 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 16, 2020, 09:47 AM   #10
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by 308Loader View Post
So, a while back when cabalas was cabalas I picked up some Lapua palma brass from the bargain cave for $30. finally getting around to using it. Did some initial testing (20 rounds) with IMR4895 and was impressed, ran a ladder from 42.5 to 45.5 and couldn't see much difference in groups at 100yrds with 155gr HPBT. all had cloverleaf like touching holes. I know 5 rounds doesn't hold too much statistical value, so I will now need to ramp up the round count. looking for advise.

What increment do you move in powder charge when you run ladder tests?

100yrds or 200M for groups? (choices at my local range)

IMR4895 VS 4064, Varget, BLC2...? I will be using CCI 450 primers for now.

Do you chrono loads when looking for accuracy nodes, or just after you have identified one you like to tune?

Rifle is Rem 700P, 1-12 twist, Will also be trying this later in Savage 10T-SR 1-10 twist.

Thanks for any input.
You ask 20 good shooters same question, you will get 20 different answers. I quit using chrono years ago. I discovered that accuracy consistency and velocity consistency usually had no relationship to each other.(As stupid as it sounds)
I go to the bullet company data. Usually, not always, start with their most accurate load and their seating depth. I move charge in 1/5th grain increments. After I find charge, I play with seat depth.
Thats the plan anyway, usually 20 forks in the road along the way.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 16, 2020, 11:10 AM   #11
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
You ask 20 good shooters same question, you will get 20 different answers.
I took a 308 Win match rifle and ammo to a local range one day and paid 10 people a few bucks each to shoot a 5 shot group at 100 yards from a bench. Their groups ranged from about 1/2 inch to 2 inches.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 16, 2020, 06:51 PM   #12
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B. View Post
I took a 308 Win match rifle and ammo to a local range one day and paid 10 people a few bucks each to shoot a 5 shot group at 100 yards from a bench. Their groups ranged from about 1/2 inch to 2 inches.
I am sure. If the right people had been there, groups would have been as large as 6".
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 16, 2020, 07:28 PM   #13
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
Quote:
. I discovered that accuracy consistency and velocity consistency usually had no relationship to each other.
take a accurate 22LR at 200 on a calm overcast morning with a half dozen or more brands of ammo and a chrono to the range some day. Shoot 25 or more rounds of each brand. I think you will quickly discover that the greater the FPS spread the larger the vertical spread on paper. For a .22LR , anything under 40FPS spread is excellent.

or just go check out this thread

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

I have a excellent 300 yards (.6- .75 MOA 20 round groups) .223 load that has a ES in the triple digits. We are talking 150 FPS ES. Take it out to 600 and it is all over the target. I might as well be using a shotgun.

I think a lot depends on what you are asking/expecting the round to do and how precise the rifle and the shooter are capable of. A lot of stuff gets lost in the noise of poor technique and wind reading when you are at my level.
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; February 16, 2020 at 07:39 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 07:53 AM   #14
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
take a accurate 22LR at 200 on a calm overcast morning with a half dozen or more brands of ammo and a chrono to the range some day. Shoot 25 or more rounds of each brand. I think you will quickly discover that the greater the FPS spread the larger the vertical spread on paper. For a .22LR , anything under 40FPS spread is excellent.

or just go check out this thread

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343
Had a tuner been installed on the barrel at the muzzle, it could have been adjusted to change the bore axis vibration frequencies so each ammo's bullets left at the best angle to compensate for bullet drop at target range. Meanwhile, the data was skewed because the barrel vibrations weren't optimized for each load.

22 rimfire ammo accuracy today isn't as accurate as that made before the early 1980's. All of the 100 yard and most of the 50 yard 40 shot prone records set before then still stand.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 17, 2020 at 09:30 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 08:40 AM   #15
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
Quote:
Had a tuner been installed on the barrel at the muzzle, it could have been adjusted to change the bore axis vibration frequencies so each ammo's bullets left at the best angle to compensate for bullet drop at target range.
and how many on here run tuners on their rifles?

that aside however imperfect Jaia's tests were they still illustrate the point that gravity and physics apply to bullets exiting a rifle barrel. Let's say you do have a tuner though, you don't have the knowledge of what that rounds speed is before you pull the trigger to adjust for every shot beforehand so what's the point ? Best idea is develop a good load and work on your shooting technique instead of trying to buying the latest toy to increase your scores. That way the bullet will exit at the same point in the barrel whip every time and exiting at close to the same velocity so it's drop will be more consistent. I know that sounds like a lot of work but that is the way it is
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; February 17, 2020 at 08:58 AM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 09:55 AM   #16
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Of course velocity spread causes vertical spread in bullet point of impact if the barrel is rigid and the LOF is the same angle to the LOS for all shots fired. Ballistic software proves that.

Across several barrels of different profiles, some will shoot a given make/lot of ammo more accurate than others. All bullets of a given make/lot won't leave at the same super elevation angle. Super elevation equals the difference between LOF and LOS.

The muzzle vibration frequency is the same for every shot fired. Bullet velocity and barrel time are not the same for each shot. If a tuner isn't used, best accuracy will happen when a load makes all bullets leave on the muzzle axis upswing at the right place to compensate for its velocity, slower ones at higher angles. Tuner settings will vary with target range

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articl...g_a_barrel.htm

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articl...vibrations.htm

Last edited by Bart B.; February 17, 2020 at 10:27 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 10:02 AM   #17
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,114
Yep. I am fighting that battle as we speak. Rimfire ammo is horribly inconsistent from lot to lot. Eley, SK, Lapua are all over the place from lot to lot in all my rifles. I do run a tuner on my rifles, but it wont even bring in some of the lots. Fiocchi is my best shooting ammo at this moment in time. It should not even be in the game with Eley and Lapua.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 17, 2020, 03:19 PM   #18
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
Reynolds 357 have you tried https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2577238141
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 06:41 PM   #19
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,114
No but definitely willing. Do they shoot good in Anschutz rifle? Lot to lot consisten? I shoot their super match, some but its not lot to lot consistent.

Last edited by reynolds357; February 17, 2020 at 06:47 PM.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 17, 2020, 07:18 PM   #20
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
Guys over at Rimfire Central have had good luck with them, including the 50 @ 200 guy jaia who uses a Anshutz I use them in a pair of CZ 452's with good luck. Gave a half box to a guy at the range shooting a Ruger 10/22 with Volquartsen barrel, his first five shots at 50 yards with them were a bughole.

Like most 22's no guarantee but worth 8 bucks for a box next time you are ordering. Make sure it is the Target Match Pistol Special . SK also sells a Target Match Pistol which did not shoot nearly as well

I shot at 50 - 150 rounds of 15 flavors of various 22 LR last year. THese and RWS R 100 shot about equally, humble CC Std Velocity was a close third

I did not do any chrono testing, the piece of dung Labradar would not trigger of my rimfires without a special adapter and I had finished with the rimfire tests before I went back to optical

here are the BTO measurements of them however, not that that seemed to make a lot of difference. Of course how much of that was errors in my technique not the ammo is a unknown
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rimfire.jpg (120.8 KB, 5 views)
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; February 17, 2020 at 07:34 PM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 17, 2020, 09:48 PM   #21
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 5,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Guys over at Rimfire Central have had good luck with them, including the 50 @ 200 guy jaia who uses a Anshutz I use them in a pair of CZ 452's with good luck. Gave a half box to a guy at the range shooting a Ruger 10/22 with Volquartsen barrel, his first five shots at 50 yards with them were a bughole.

Like most 22's no guarantee but worth 8 bucks for a box next time you are ordering. Make sure it is the Target Match Pistol Special . SK also sells a Target Match Pistol which did not shoot nearly as well

I shot at 50 - 150 rounds of 15 flavors of various 22 LR last year. THese and RWS R 100 shot about equally, humble CC Std Velocity was a close third

I did not do any chrono testing, the piece of dung Labradar would not trigger of my rimfires without a special adapter and I had finished with the rimfire tests before I went back to optical

here are the BTO measurements of them however, not that that seemed to make a lot of difference. Of course how much of that was errors in my technique not the ammo is a unknown
Thanks. I will try some.
reynolds357 is online now  
Old February 18, 2020, 09:18 AM   #22
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
Best idea is develop a good load and work on your shooting technique instead of trying to buying the latest toy to increase your scores. That way the bullet will exit at the same point in the barrel whip every time and exiting at close to the same velocity so it's drop will be more consistent. I know that sounds like a lot of work but that is the way it is
All bullets fired will never do that. It requires all shots have exactly the same pressure curve, barrel time and muzzle velocity. Then the rifle has to be held exactly the same for each shot.

All bullets leaving at the same speed will have the same drop at target range, but their departure angle varies with barrel time. Tuners adjust the muzzle axis vibration frequency that's several hundred cycles per second. It can be tuned so the slower bullets leave at higher angles above the LOS.

Last edited by Bart B.; February 18, 2020 at 10:41 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 18, 2020, 11:00 AM   #23
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
Quote:
All bullets leaving at the same speed will have the same drop at target range, but their departure angle varies with barrel time. Tuners adjust the muzzle axis vibration frequency that's several hundred cycles per second. It can be tuned so the slower bullets leave at higher angles above the LOS.
So are you saying a tuner eliminates inconsistent holds and other shooter errors?

what about faster shots, does a tuner automatically adjust so they leave at a lower angle ? Explain please. Since tuners are legal in F Class. I might just have to buy me one

edit - I guess what I am asking is if I have a load with a 25FPS spread (2750 - 2775) will a bullet leaving at 2750 exit at the same point that a bullet leaving at 2775 with a tuner? What about that same example without a tuner? If there is a difference with a tuner why ?

edit 2 - an interesting concept

http://www.stocks-rifle.com/smartstock.htm
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

Last edited by hounddawg; February 18, 2020 at 11:44 AM.
hounddawg is offline  
Old February 18, 2020, 05:03 PM   #24
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
So are you saying a tuner eliminates inconsistent holds and other shooter errors?
No.

Quote:
what about faster shots, does a tuner automatically adjust so they leave at a lower angle ?
No. It has to be set to make that happen. There's no nervous system in the tuner to sense that. If it's set so average velocity bullets leave after slow ones and before the slowest ones, the entire velocity range will have good compensation.

Quote:
What I am asking is if I have a load with a 25FPS spread (2750 - 2775) will a bullet leaving at 2750 exit at the same point that a bullet leaving at 2775 with a tuner?
Probably not.

Quote:
What about that same example without a tuner?
No

Quote:
If there is a difference with a tuner why ?
Tuners change the barrel's resonant and several harmonic frequencies

Last edited by Bart B.; February 18, 2020 at 05:19 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 18, 2020, 05:23 PM   #25
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,901
so basically a well tuned load as far as powder choice/powder charge/seating depth and primer selection does the same thing a tuner does. I can see where they would be beneficial in rimfire or for someone who does not handload
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13635 seconds with 11 queries