August 26, 2012, 09:44 PM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Anyone Here Tried C.A.R.?
Hi, me again. I have been looking around the Internet, mostly youtube and Google searches, learning about a controversial, new-to-me shooting system, Center Axis Relock(C.A.R. for short.). From my somewhat excessive understanding of it, the system utilizes a unorthodox grip and stance to reduce recoil and possibly increase reload time and follow-up shots. The gun is canted any where from around 30 to 180 degrees, and the body is bladed towards the target, reducing the profile of the shooter, and apparently protecting the face. I have seen shooters accurately hitting out to 50 feet. I have even heard people saying the way the pistol is held makes pistol-punching and elbowing a really up-close threat a possibility.
More info on the system here. Video documenting the grip itself here. Anyway, my question is, has anyone tried this? Did it feel any different than other stances? Was recoil reduced? Did you "adopt" the system for anything? Et cetera. I, personally, think this is going to eventually be my HD and maybe SD stance of choice, it works in vehicles, from cover, can be used with one hand, leaving the other free to open doors and stuff, makes reloads faster depending on the level of training, is fluid in the transition between stances, and allows for quick target acquisition and follow-up shots, which are all pretty important in a SD situation. So, your thoughts? |
August 27, 2012, 03:44 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia, USA
Posts: 13,198
|
Moving to T&T.
|
August 27, 2012, 04:41 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,128
|
Guy standing downrange in first video=Dumb. Don't try that at home kids.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 |
August 27, 2012, 04:49 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
|
Canting the gun about half that much does help with controlling the gun when shooting one handed.
Don't know about it being needed two handed. One drawback to canting the gun is the sights and point of impact will be to the left on the target.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
August 27, 2012, 10:34 PM | #5 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Quote:
Why does everyone ridicule CAR? It's not like Weaver, Isoceles, and Chapman are all perfect, the Car system does too, but the biggest one, the lack of really good long range accuracy, can easily be overcome through plenty of training. And without that one thing really in the way, getting past it makes the system inherently superior to traditional stances, IMO. And above all else, this was just asking if anyone had tried it, not if you thought it was stupid or idiotic or any other negative adjective you can think of. And I bet the one who I quoted, based on the way he worded his post, has not even tried it. |
|
August 28, 2012, 07:34 AM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 35
|
Tried it, learning it from a certified C.A.R. instructor a few years back.
Also spoke a bit with Paul Castle. Has some good applications, but seemed unnatural without any major advantages to how I already shoot. In my opinion not worth the effort to learn. |
August 28, 2012, 06:06 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 403
|
Quote:
2. This topic pops up on every gun board every 12-18 months. "Nothing new, nothing worth adopting" is usually the consensus. 3. If you're truly looking for information, there are plenty of previous threads here and elsewhere that discuss this technique in detail. |
|
August 28, 2012, 08:46 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
I don't think so.
It does nothing better than what I do now. It seems silly to adopt a shooting stance that works maybe as well as any traditional method (once you master it), but then it sucks for any type of accuracy. A proper grip and technique will mitigate recoil as well.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
September 4, 2012, 06:28 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
|
"Anyway, my question is, has anyone tried this?"
Here's a TFL discussion from 2002. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113113 |
September 4, 2012, 08:54 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2011
Posts: 990
|
I'll try it next time I'm at the range. It'll give me something new to do thanks
Why were they impressed with his accuracy? I shoot 6" plates at 25-30 yards and generally clean 15/18 ( 3 rounds with 6 plates) and I'm sure there's a ton more on this board that can do better. |
September 5, 2012, 01:41 AM | #12 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Quote:
And it works maybe better than others at other things, shooting from cover, really close quarters, and quick target engagement and disengagement are examples. |
|
September 5, 2012, 02:13 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
Gunnut17, you say this all because you've done what you claim it can do, or because you read it somewhere or saw some guy on YouTube?
You're asking for inputs from people who've been shooting for decades, and then talking down to us when you don't like our answers. FWIW, 50ft being towards the outer limit for accuracy brings up two questions: 1) Why would anybody use this method on a target 50 feet away? and 2) Who thinks 50 feet is a long shot (with regard to difficulty from their normal stances)? |
September 6, 2012, 12:15 AM | #14 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Quote:
1) Not many would be willing to, it is just that guys way of showing that it doesn't suck for any kind of accuracy, as Nanuk put it. Most think that CAR is only for really close range. 2) Not many do that either, it is still just a way of saying that CAR is good for something other than distances where you are sharing air with the other guy. And for a bunch of guys who may have expected the holes to be in the backstop, it was a long shot. |
|
September 6, 2012, 12:32 AM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
|
Quote:
I would guess since you stated you have an excessive understanding of the system without having tried it, pitched your own thoughts based on not having tried it, and then asked for peoples thoughts, that you asked for input beyond just those that have tried it. Whether or not CAR has merits as a system, I think it has low potential to become widespread with the founder of the system being dead. |
|
September 6, 2012, 02:57 AM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
+1 sigcurious
|
September 6, 2012, 08:01 AM | #17 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Quote:
[Rant mode: on] Look, I get that I may have offended or annoyed some people, But do you expect me not to take offense to Nanuk calling it "silly", which is a slightly nicer way of saying "stupid"? It seems a little like a double standard, if you ask me, which you won't, because I apparently cannot express my opinion. [Rant mode: off] Would whoever is a moderator for this forum close this please? It's beyond repair, and in the mean time I will consider finding a new place on the internet to stay. |
|
September 6, 2012, 10:42 AM | #18 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
I'm not so sure that the thread is beyond repair. What I see here is that a bunch of folks are skeptical. So am I. Since the OP asked for "thoughts", here are a few of my "off the top of my head" thoughts:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
September 6, 2012, 11:28 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
|
A lot of C.A.R. seems to be designed around specific, but fairly common problems encountered by LE. The stance is similar to "field interview" position, for instance. If one trains left/right well enough, it appears to be an excellent tool for rounding corners as well. It certainly provides some retention advantages also.
This isn't surprising since Paul Castle was quite focused upon improving the survival rate of officers in the field. Not everything in C.A.R. has a ready application for those acting in citizen-self-defense or military applications. As such it provides an excellent tool for some things, but it's not the final word on anything. |
September 6, 2012, 05:01 PM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
Quote:
It may offer advantages, it may not. Shooting from cover? No, you do not crowd cover, its a good way to get hurt. Really close quarters/retention, realistically? No, for that you will have more control keeping the gun lower closer to your midline. You ever make it to the upper midwest we can go to the range and see.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
|
September 6, 2012, 09:40 PM | #21 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Quote:
Same grip, minus the cant and a few inches away from the chest. gun hand elbow at 90 degree angle, other one at it's own 90 degree, elbow and forearm tucked against your side, out of the line of fire. Sighting is replaced with better judgement, most often you see someone double tapping the torso, then shooting twice at the head, using the point of impact to help yourself know where to shoot. Last edited by Frank Ettin; September 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM. Reason: remove snark |
|
September 6, 2012, 09:50 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
|
GN17, how many CAR classes have you taken?
|
September 6, 2012, 09:52 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 21, 2004
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 961
|
I don't know how to say this without offending you but I'll try.
Many years ago CAR was the hot new technique. Our state law enforcement academy incorporated it into the basic academy course and sent instructors out to train officers at various agencies who had already completed the academy. I tried it myself. It lasted less than a year before it was dropped. The only time I hear it mentioned now is on the internet. Draw your own conclusions.
__________________
All that is neccessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke |
September 6, 2012, 10:13 PM | #24 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 21, 2012
Location: Kitsap County, WA, USA
Posts: 445
|
Sigcurious, why don't you try and get into and afford to pay for training in a technique that almost no one has been trained in, at 13 years of age, with an allowance of $2 every two weeks.
Then come up with realistic expectations of my age group, and get back to me then. |
September 6, 2012, 10:24 PM | #25 | |||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Quote:
GN17, we understand that you're enthusiastic. And that's very good. But we also understand that you're short on actual training and experience. On the other hand, many folks here do have quite a bit of training and experience, and this is a fine opportunity to learn a few things. I urge you to take advantage of that opportunity. Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|