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Old August 22, 2017, 03:58 PM   #1
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.454 vs. .460 S&W vs .45-70 rifles

I've always been interested in a big bore rifle, usually in .45-70, and lately I've been thinking: is .45-70 really the best for me? Currently, I have revolvers in .45 Colt, so the appeal of a .454 and .460 chambered rifle is greater than .45-70, however, I don't have any desire to buy a .454 or .460 handgun.

I'm not planning any hunting trips to Africa, so for any animal I could encounter in the New World, is there any reason I should only consider .45-70 as the one big bore rifle to rule them all?
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Old August 22, 2017, 09:57 PM   #2
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I simply wanted a big bore rifle...no reason, really, other than there was a certain appeal to throwing a large chunk of lead downrange and casting big bullets. I selected 45-70 mostly because it was the big bore thing I wanted, because I found the brass relatively inexpensive (relative to many other big cartridges), and because I felt there wasn't any practical limit as to how big a load I could do with the Ruger No 1 that I also have always wanted.

So, putting all that together, I ended up with a Ruger No 1 in 45-70 and I'm having a blast with it.

Now, I don't find the 45-70 to be a 'pretty' cartridge at all, and still really don't care for it based only on sex appeal. But I'm getting over it and can't argue with the cost of brass. If cost of brass was no problem for me, then I probably would have selected 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott, as I find either a far more aesthetic cartridge. But, I'd have to load them down quite a bit to so the shooting I like to do. As I already have to back off from the big loads for 45-70 as it is, there wouldn't be any point. All I do is punch paper anyway.

There's a lot of factors I suppose driving the selection that's Right for You. I think any reasonable advice would be to say 'no', there's no good reason to only consider 45-70 or any other cartridge. It depends so much on what kind of rifles you like, for one thing. If I was stuck on a big bolt rifle that had the look and feel of a working man's safari gun, I'd certainly choose something more like a bolt gun cartridge. If I just loved lever guns, then, shoulder punishment aside, I might choose 45-70 or the 450 Marlin I suppose.

I have no experience with anything else, so about all I can say is 45-70 sure is fun to shoot, and I know when the time comes to kill pumpkins, I'll be well-prepared.
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Old August 22, 2017, 11:11 PM   #3
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The 45/70 will do everything those other cartridges will do, and at less pressure. Pressure is not your friend, things go bad faster the higher the pressure. Chambered in a modern rifle, out of modern alloy steels, with plenty of case head support, there is no reason to stay at 19th black powder pressures with the 45/70, and the cartridge will easily push at bullet at, near, 458 Win Mag levels. It is just a matter of case capacity, pressures and the structural ability of the action. You would not, for example, want to soup up pressures in a modern trapdoor because the action is weak. I don't know enough about traditional lever actions, but the ones I have, they don't look very rigid. Bolt actions and good single action rifles are different. I don't see a reason why a modern 1886 or Ruger #1 can't handle high pressure 45/70 ammunition, assuming Ruger uses the same metal alloys and heat treats the receivers the same as the magnum cartridge #1 actions.

Even some of the vintage single shot designs, if built of modern materials, should be able to take the pressures. Look at the Frazer action

http://www.steveearleproducts.com/fraser.html



That is one massive action and it was built to handle large elephant cartridges.

If you want more recoil, I am certain there are even more horrific cartridges to shoot.
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Old August 23, 2017, 01:30 PM   #4
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While this may apply to many other choices as well, published load data for the 45-70 covers a wide range that seems to make it very versatile. From casual fun plinking with antique or antique replicas to the strong lever actions and on up to Mauser and single-shots, you're covered with well-known loads.

It's interesting to me that Lyman's manual stops at 40,000 cup pressure for their Ruger #1 loads, while Hornady's book runs on up to 50,000 cup, which to me is far more reasonable a threshold for that rifle.

I believe I found that 458 Win Mag is typically maxed out at 53,000 cup, but for sure the SAAMI recommendation is 60,000 psi, and for the 458 Lott it's 62,500 psi. So, while trying to get equivalence between cup and psi just isn't done, it does subtly suggest that running 45-70 at 50,000 cup is well within limits for rifles also chambered for the other 458s.

So, the point not being a big one--only that it's a cartridge that will push big 500 gr slammers up to within a few hundred fps of the big boys...if you think that's important. Likewise, you can settle back into the 350 gr at 1400 fps range or even load black powder, and still not fret about unnerving ignition problems or half-empty case charges. Just a big revolver round, if that's what you want.

That Fraser action is a lovely thing to behold.



420 gr of pure joy

in a convenient, modern metallic cartridge

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Old August 24, 2017, 07:07 AM   #5
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I just found a ruger #1A in .460 S&W new in the box and I am looking foreward to loading for it with 300 grain bullets at 2200fps. I hunt a ruger #3 in 45-70 and its a deer-bear killing machine and I think the .460 will be too. eastbank.
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Old August 24, 2017, 09:17 AM   #6
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What type of rifle are you looking at? Lever, single shot, bolt action? 'Cause that may narrow down your choices right there.

How heavy of a bullet do you wanna shoot? If you want thumpers upwards of 500 grains, then the .45-70 is the only practical choice; the handgun rounds give up a lot of case capacity there. But if you're fine with 250-350 grains, they'll all be very similar, and will still shoot through a buffalo.

Also, do you hand load? If not, then the .454 Casull has a slight edge on cost for factory ammo, but not much. They're all gonna be in the neighborhood of a buck a shot. The real savings is being able to shoot your Colt ammo from the .454 & .460 for plinking.

If you do handload, then of course you can reduce the cost quite a bit, but the .452 calibers will still have a significant edge on being able to use cheap bulk cast handgun bullets for mild loads. And you'd have the added benefit of sharing some components or even the dies with your .45 Colt. For some reason, the exact same bullet run through a .458 sizing die costs twice as much. Also, I don't think you can get carbide sizing dies for the .45-70 since the case is very slightly tapered. Meaning it's a pain in the butt to deal with lube & such compared to the pistol rounds.
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Old August 24, 2017, 09:58 AM   #7
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Good points!
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Old August 24, 2017, 10:23 AM   #8
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For whatever reason, I've just never had an interest with pistol rounds in a rifle. I own two 45-70s. A Marlin and a Henry. Both have octagon barrels. I just like the look. I do reload, and enjoy shooting many different combinations of powder and bullets. Just yesterday, I spent a good part of the day in the desert, and went through 83 rounds of 45-70 using paper & steel targets.

The 45-70 is simple to reload. Since it's just a slight taper, it doesn't stretch like necked rifle cartridges. Lube before sizing is simple just using a slight amount of paste on the finger tip. 83 rounds could get rather expensive, if using factory ammo. Since I have all the equipment, the 45-70 is quite cheap to reload. Recoil ranges from a non-event to a good kick in the shoulder. A large range of load choices are available for both reloads and factory.
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Old August 24, 2017, 11:00 AM   #9
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For whatever reason, I've just never had an interest with pistol rounds in a rifle. I own two 45-70s.
All three of these rounds have enough power to be considered "rifle" rounds. Heck, the .454 from a rifle can be more powerful than many factory loaded .45-70's. It's not like we're comparing it against a 9mm carbine.
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Old August 24, 2017, 11:31 AM   #10
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What type of rifle are you looking at? Lever, single shot, bolt action? 'Cause that may narrow down your choices right there.
That'd be my problem with the 454-460 there just isn't a rifle chambered in these that interests me.
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Old August 24, 2017, 12:56 PM   #11
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"...no reason, really..." "I want one" is a reason.
"...454 and .460..." It's not about the cartridges themselves. It's about availability. Ammo for either is very unlikely to be found in small places. .45-70 probably will be. Somebody coined the phrase, "The Wal-Mart Test". If Wally World has it, you're go to go. Otherwise pass.
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Old August 24, 2017, 02:20 PM   #12
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Yeah, if you're going to push a 300 gr slug at 2200 fps that's impressive...Hornady doesn't list a max load for 458 Win Mag that quite reaches that. A limitation of their particular 300 gr bullet, I assume, rather than 458 Win Mag case capacity

While, as a handloader, I don't care much about what Wal-Mart carries, I do care about what Starline makes and what I can find at my favorite reloader supply sites. But if money isn't a big deal and/or you don't shoot a bajillion rounds a month, I have to think components for most choices can be had.

...and just think, if you select 45-70, then you can still get a wheelgun that shoots your rifle cartridge, too. It's a world of choices we live in...even if many don't seem to make much sense.

As for availability of ammo, I sure can't argue that the classic 19th century round isn't on more shelves than the 'exotic' and more-recent big bore revolver stuff. But still, my goodness, I went into one of those big rural tractor supply type stores last year when I bought the Ruger, and Remington 'Express Rifle' .45-70 as about 2 bucks a pop. So a box of 20 cost me as much as about 600 rds of 45 Auto handloads, or more. I ended up pulling 1/2 of that Remington ammo anyway and putting some powder in the cases--a fella wants to know the gun went off when he pulls the trigger, ya know.
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Old August 24, 2017, 03:47 PM   #13
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the speer #14 lists the 458 mag at pushing a 350gr bullet at over 2500fps with four different loads. and lists three loads for a 300gr bullet in the .460S&W at over 1700fps out of a 8.375 inch barrel . 2200fps is apiece of cake for a ruger # 1 with a 22 inch barrel. eastbank.
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Old August 24, 2017, 06:12 PM   #14
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Right, but what's the max is lists for 300 grain? 2100 fps.
Do you suppose it's simply a matter of that particular Hornady bullet that vaporizes or something at a faster mv? Joking of course, but I am curious.

There's a lot about that manual that makes me real curious. Why a Ruger #1 with a 2" shorter barrel in 45-70 will push the identical bullet to the same mv as the 458 Win Mag, but do so with less propellant. Just curious stuff that makes me wonder. Maybe just a higher pressure attained with the smaller case volume in the 45-70 does it (and it's not a huge difference, to begin with).
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Old August 24, 2017, 06:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by the possum View Post
What type of rifle are you looking at? Lever, single shot, bolt action? 'Cause that may narrow down your choices right there.

How heavy of a bullet do you wanna shoot? If you want thumpers upwards of 500 grains, then the .45-70 is the only practical choice; the handgun rounds give up a lot of case capacity there. But if you're fine with 250-350 grains, they'll all be very similar, and will still shoot through a buffalo.

Also, do you hand load? If not, then the .454 Casull has a slight edge on cost for factory ammo, but not much. They're all gonna be in the neighborhood of a buck a shot. The real savings is being able to shoot your Colt ammo from the .454 & .460 for plinking.

If you do handload, then of course you can reduce the cost quite a bit, but the .452 calibers will still have a significant edge on being able to use cheap bulk cast handgun bullets for mild loads. And you'd have the added benefit of sharing some components or even the dies with your .45 Colt. For some reason, the exact same bullet run through a .458 sizing die costs twice as much. Also, I don't think you can get carbide sizing dies for the .45-70 since the case is very slightly tapered. Meaning it's a pain in the butt to deal with lube & such compared to the pistol rounds.
To answer your questions:

1. single shot and lever action, but no Henry lever guns, I want loading gate.

It seems .45-70 is much more readily available in both than .454 and .460 are, but if the performance of the .454 and .460 are as good, I'm fine with the difficulty of obtaining/higher price.

2. If 350 to 370 grain bullets will down a buffalo, grizzly, or moose, I'm just fine with that. I don't see the need to go heavier if it is not necessary.

3. I do hand load and plan to do that for the cartridge I shoot. I already load for .45 Colt.

Hunting is not the main reason I would like a big bore rifle, but it is something I keep in mind. I just figure if I'm willing to buy a lever gun in .45 Colt, maybe I should consider getting a .454 or .460 instead as it will also shoot .45 Colt, but if a .460 from a 16 inch barrel won't down a bear or moose, maybe .45-70 is the better option. I sure don't like how much brass and bullets cost though.
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Old August 24, 2017, 08:25 PM   #16
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I've had 45-70, it's over rated. For what you want to do warmish 45 Colt or 44 magnum will do the job as long as the rifle is designed for hotter loads. There is nothing I'd hunt with a 45-70 that I'd not hunt with a 44 mag or warmish loaded 45 Colt.

While I'm not particularly fond of 45-70 there are certainly more options in rifles and ammo if you feel the need for more punch than 45 or 44. The 454 and 460 certainly appear to be the right cartridge choices for you. But suitable rifles are the problem.

As much as I hate to say it, it appears 45-70 wins by default in this case.
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Old August 24, 2017, 10:09 PM   #17
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I have a Rossi 92 in .454, so I wouldn't say the .45-70 is the only game in town. Big Horn Armory makes their semi-custom lever actions in .460, but they're expensive and have a long waiting list last I heard.

I went with the Rossi for a number of the same reasons you mentioned. I'll never hafta stop a charging grizzly, so 325 grainers at over 2200 fps is already way more than I'll need here in IL, yet it's a hoot to blast stuff with. The fact you're already loading .45 Colt makes this one a no brainer to me. You should be able to use the dies you already have, and most of the same bullets and powders (at least for mid range loads). And just shoot the Colt ammo for fun. The other benefits of this route are weight and capacity. Ya know of any .45-70's that hold 11 shells and only weigh 5 1/2 pounds?



I'm sure a single shot action could be had in anything ya want. Like the TC Encore. If you have a yearning for a Sharps, then I'd vote for .45-70 just out of deference for nostalgia.
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Old August 25, 2017, 05:50 AM   #18
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There are good deals to be had on Marlin 45-70s all over the internet. Quality has been good, though if you get one with issues, Remington customer service can be nightmarish. They just finished running a $100 rebate on them. They may re-launch in September.
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Old August 25, 2017, 06:09 AM   #19
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I just figure if I'm willing to buy a lever gun in .45 Colt, maybe I should consider getting a .454 or .460 instead as it will also shoot .45 Colt, but if a .460 from a 16 inch barrel won't down a bear or moose,
Properly loaded in a strong '92 action the 45 Colt will kill anything that walks and if you reload gives up very little to the 454.
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Old August 25, 2017, 08:31 AM   #20
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Properly loaded in a strong '92 action the 45 Colt will kill anything that walks and if you reload gives up very little to the 454.
I might also be tempted to recommend this route if the OP didn't already have a .45 Colt handgun. I wouldn't wanna take a chance of getting the ammo mixed up, and blowing up the pistol. So keep Casull level loads in Casull brass.
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Old August 25, 2017, 09:09 AM   #21
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I might also be tempted to recommend this route if the OP didn't already have a .45 Colt handgun. I wouldn't wanna take a chance of getting the ammo mixed up, and blowing up the pistol.
Agreed that's why I have 45 Colt, 44 Mag and 45/70 lever guns, but it also depends on the pistol too if he has a Ruger Redhawk it'll take it.
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Old August 25, 2017, 07:55 PM   #22
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"I've had 45-70, it's over rated. For what you want to do warmish 45 Colt or 44 magnum will do the job as long as the rifle is designed for hotter loads. There is nothing I'd hunt with a 45-70 that I'd not hunt with a 44 mag or warmish loaded 45 Colt."

I disagree. If your thinking is only regarding standard factory ammo designed for Trapdoor Springfield rifles your statement is valid. If you handload, it's a whole different ball game. There is no dinky a$$ pistol cartridge that can come close to a full power 45-70.
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Old August 25, 2017, 08:35 PM   #23
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Agreed that's why I have 45 Colt, 44 Mag and 45/70 lever guns, but it also depends on the pistol too if he has a Ruger Redhawk it'll take it.
I do have a Ruger Redhawk, the .45 Colt-.45 ACP model that's cut for moon clips.
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Old August 25, 2017, 09:03 PM   #24
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I disagree. If your thinking is only regarding standard factory ammo designed for Trapdoor Springfield rifles your statement is valid. If you handload, it's a whole different ball game. There is no dinky a$$ pistol cartridge that can come close to a full power 45-70.
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Old August 25, 2017, 09:09 PM   #25
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I do have a Ruger Redhawk, the .45 Colt-.45 ACP model that's cut for moon clips.
As long as that's the only 45 Colt revolver you have I'd have no worries just loading hot 45 Colts. I unfortunately also own a Colt SAA and a USFA so I load appropriate for them. But like I said I also have 44 mags and 45/70 if I want more.
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