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May 11, 2011, 03:14 PM | #151 |
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As a CC proponent, I choose to CC because I don't want the fact that I have a gun to be noticed. I have the gun. I know I have the gun. Until it is time to use the gun I'm the only one who needs to know.
In my opinion, and that's all it is, unless you are in a place where OC is normal and accepted, you are a poser and a wannabe if you OC. I'm being honest here. If I see you walking down the street in Seattle OCing thats the thought going thru my mind. If I see the same thing in Wenatchee or Omak I'm barely noticing. Civilians who OC in places where OC is abnormal are attention hogs (again, my opinion). I judge them the exact same way I judge people with unnaturally colored hair, multiple piercings, excessive tattoos, neon colored cars and other "hey look at me" displays. I support the right to OC. I also support discretion. Legal and right are not the same thing. The law decides legal. I decide right. And so do you.
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May 11, 2011, 03:52 PM | #152 |
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"The thought going through my mind" says more about you than about anything else. That's true for anybody, anywhere.
One thing I do notice, however. The proponents of OC tend to be accepting of CC proponents reasons and decisions. They may disagree with them but, generally don't denigrate the individuals for making choices different from their own. The same cannot be said for many of the CC proponents. Oh, and saying "my opinion" doesn't make an insult any less insulting.
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May 11, 2011, 04:00 PM | #153 |
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I accept full responsibility for what I think. And say. You can rest assured that I've considered every possible way in which any comments I make can be interpreted and have worded those comments in a way intended to make my point. I'm very proud of what runs through my mind. As an adult I consider it my solemn duty to judge people. Accepting everyone for what they are is for kindergarten.
I've noticed the exact opposite tendency in the OC/CC argument. CC'ers support the right to OC even when we choose not to exercise it. OC'ers tend to challenge our commitment to the cause.
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May 11, 2011, 04:04 PM | #154 |
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Right, right, right. Calling people "attention hogs" and the like is so accepting of people coming to different conclusions than you.
It's not your choice to CC that causes people to question, but your choice to denigrate those who OC that leads to the questioning.
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May 11, 2011, 04:19 PM | #155 | |
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You are entitled to come to different conclusions. I can think you are wrong without trying to take away your right to do so. But I'm under no obligation to keep my mouth shut about it. Nor to sugar coat what I think. In the end, if the subject of OC comes up in my state I'll vote to keep it legal. But this does not change my conclusions the next time I see someone OCing in an inappropriate setting.
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May 11, 2011, 04:40 PM | #156 |
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There is a difference between making a reasoned adult judgement and making assumptions based on ones own prejudices. People have given a number of reasons why they or others OC. You dismiss all of that and simply assume that your claimed reason "they are attention hogs" is correct.
As I said the "thought going through [your] mind" says more about you than about the people you are thinking about. And, I have also found that there is no strong correlation between the certainty that someone is that he or she is right and he or she actually being right, at least not on anything more complicated than 2+2=4. If anything, the certainty of ones position is a problem since the first step in learning is acknowledgment that one might actually be mistaken.
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May 11, 2011, 04:59 PM | #157 | |||
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Quote:
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I see the following bumpersticker about once a week: "Don't believe everything you think". What am I supposed to believe? What someone else thinks? Yeah, that's gonna happen.
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May 11, 2011, 05:07 PM | #158 | |
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A number of reasons for people open carrying have been presented. You just blithely dismiss all of them and claim, with no evidence but your assertion that the "real" reason is that they are attention hogs.
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May 11, 2011, 05:31 PM | #159 |
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Not at all. I've considered the stated reasons. I just find them unconvincing. I'm doing the same thing you are. I just realize it. And am fine with it.
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May 11, 2011, 05:58 PM | #160 | ||
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Firearms are the one thing that no matter how much money you have if you have a felony you cant buy it legally, therefore pistols are top prize items on the street, bring good money, and are likely worth the risk to take from you. Yes, a OC'er could easily be targeted because of his gun. Simple as that. Quote:
Last edited by Dashunde; May 11, 2011 at 06:05 PM. |
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May 11, 2011, 06:08 PM | #161 | |
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You are assuming a reason for OC not only in absence of evidence of that being the reason but in flat contradiction to the reasons people are telling you. Just because you disagree with their reasons doesn't mean they're not their reasons. It's the mind-reading, psychoanalyzing, and insisting that the reasons are not the ones they state to which people object, not your choice to CC instead of OC.
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May 11, 2011, 06:27 PM | #162 | |
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Sitting in Olive Garden with a CZ97 strapped on in plain sight? Oh that'll desensitize them alright, just enough to vote against the "crazy gun people" the next time CC is challenged. |
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May 11, 2011, 06:31 PM | #163 | |
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It may be difficult for a felon to obtain firearms from a legal source (a little bit different from the "cant buy it legally" which is impossible by definition) but that's why there's a booming trade in illegal guns. Back in the 80's NBC (I think it was) did a "special report" tracing one gun from crime to crime over a number of years and several states. They were using it in an attempt to show how bad guns were and we needed to get them off the street. What the report showed to me was how few guns are really needed to "serve" criminal uses of them as one gun gets sold/passed from criminal to criminal to criminal and used again and again and again. As for the "good money", how much? Source please. I have: More than half of arrestees say guns easy to obtain illegally: (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf) Specific prices for Glocks: $300-500 (http://richmondconfidential.org/2010...n-has-a-story/) not too far from their legal price (last time I checked, which has been a while, so stipulated), much less than a nice rolex will bring on ebay and less than one can net from jacking a car to be stripped. And so the "you'll be targeted for your gun" argument really seems to be one of those theoretical things that just doesn't seem to be happening. Yes, if somebody does pull of a successful robbery, they'll take your gun too. But they'll almost certainly do that whether you OC or CC. It's the targeting specifically because they see you carrying that I question.
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May 11, 2011, 06:34 PM | #164 |
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[quote]Naa. That may be their "reason", but its a lousy one thats far more likely to generate a negative response than positive.
Sitting in Olive Garden with a CZ97 strapped on in plain sight? Oh that'll desensitize them alright, just enough to vote against the "crazy gun people" the next time CC is challenged. [quote] In much the same way that the Stonewall riots led to a backlash against gays and a legal crackdown restricting even the rights they had then? In much the way that "gay pride" parades and other visible activism has been far less successful than the decades of "go along to get along" approach that "gay leaders" advocated before Stonewall? Caution is one thing. Taking counsel of ones fears is something entirely different. What you're doing is assuming your conclusion.
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May 11, 2011, 06:52 PM | #165 | |
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May 11, 2011, 07:12 PM | #166 | |
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It's no more valid than were I to say that the reason you CC is that you're secretly ashamed of your gun.
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May 11, 2011, 07:39 PM | #167 | |||
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I wrote:
Quote:
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dburkhead wrote: Quote:
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May 11, 2011, 08:19 PM | #168 | ||
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Go do it in North St Louis, East St Louis or South Chicago... none of you OC'er wannabe's really have the guts to go into those areas with a gun exposed and no badge, go try to "desensitize" them or try to "deter" them with your exposed peice. Quote:
Agree or not, its pretty clear that a hot gun in the hood will sell for about the same as a legal one - therein lies the motive to steal the OC'ers weapon if presented the opportunity. As I've said before, it only takes a $3 claw hammer, a small amount of wits. Last edited by Dashunde; May 11, 2011 at 08:25 PM. |
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May 11, 2011, 08:26 PM | #169 | |
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Quote:
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May 11, 2011, 08:39 PM | #170 | |||
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Two cases presented so far. OC isn't that rare. Quote:
Don't know about East St. Louis, but carrying at all is illegal in Chicago so I'd be more worried about the cops than about the criminal element. And even ignoring all that just because a tactic doesn't work one place that means it doesn't work any place? That's a pretty broad brush you're using there. Quote:
The credit cards I carry generally have more value to them than my gun. And someone can reasonably expect that kind of return for that $3 claw hammer and a small amount of wits _without_ the risk of making a mistake and ending up getting a 230 grain JHP Darwin Delivery (or a 95% chance of not having that risk since only about 5% of Indiana's population has a LTCH). Even with that supposed motive it remains only two cases presented so far. And that's not a case of two this year but two period.
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May 11, 2011, 09:21 PM | #171 | |||
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As to whether you will argue or not; you've been arguing exactly what you say you are not arguing. You have been doing it for a few hours now. In repeated posts. Quote:
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May 11, 2011, 09:38 PM | #172 | |||
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Both are cases of assuming the other person's motives in the absence of evidence. Quote:
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If you have any interest in discussing the actual issue and dealing with people's real motives (rather than what you just assume, despite being told otherwise, are their motives) we can do that. If instead, you're "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with anything that doesn't fit my comfortable world view" then, yeah, it's time to end this.
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May 11, 2011, 10:10 PM | #173 | |||
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Is it the "you" you're having a problem with? In my original post? This was before I had engaged YOU specifically. I would not advise you to logically insert "dburkhead" in my scenario. It is a fictional "you" in a theoretical setting. If I see a random, unknown person walking down the street with a visible firearm in Seattle I draw a conclusion about him in the same way I draw a conclusion about a guy with a pink mohawk. If you choose to put yourself in my scenario, given the fact that I don't know you by sight, unfortunately I'll think this about you too. Sorry.
I cannot see any way around this. I draw the conclusion I draw. You must see by now that I have clearly given this some thought and I'm not pulling it from my behind. I present it as fact that it is my opinion. Attempting to convince me that this is not my opinion is a losing game. I wrote: Quote:
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I ask you to think of it this way: is there any way anyone could convince you that owning a firearm is wrong? Does this make you closed minded or unwilling to listen to reason? It does not. It just means your mind is made up. As mine is on where OC is kosher and where it is not.
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May 11, 2011, 10:34 PM | #174 |
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Ugh... again, this one is still trudging along powered by literary semantics and endless philosophical wordsmithing.
State your own opinions on the subject, stop toiling around with other peoples words without any additional point to make. Tired. :barf: Yes, I think OC should be legal. It should be done in a polite manner, in the right environment, with the right motives. And dont fling any more crap about who am I to say whats polite, where is the right environment and who picks the motives - We're all American's with the same basic standards of decency and common sense - find a better argument, to pick that nit puts you on the fringe. OC is not a public enlightenment tool, the gun is the tool, its your tool to defend yourself with, if you think showing it off will sway people into thinking its all A-OK then your probably the tool. I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned. I can imagine many reasons to OC including hiking, riding, working, sweating, or patrolling just to name a few... but none of them involve going out to dinner or to a kids recital. |
May 11, 2011, 11:42 PM | #175 | |
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