Close Quarters Reaction Drill - Page 2

Eagle0711 · September 15, 2010, 02:35 AM

A few thoughts; Don't bring your gun to eye level for two reasons. The first is a B.G. may[ can ] grab it, and it will block your line of sight so that you cannot see everything. A trainned person will move so as ot hide behind it.
A semi-auto is not the best choice, but will work if you know your tool. If you jam the gun into the B.G.s gut the disco will prevent the gun from firing, and in practice my shirt gets blown by the wind an has caused problems as the slide gets hung in the shirt. You must know how to use your weapon effectively.
The revolver especially the snuby really is an advantage as the short barrel makes it hard to take away. The revolver can be pressed into the body of the aggerssor and the gasses will cause major damage.
The knife if you don't let then see it, only feel it can be damaging beyond belief. The down side is the cops frown on using a blade and you'll probably be arrested. At least around here shooting a aggressor is socially acceptable.
I actually think that the scenerio presebted by the O.P. is very likely in today's world. Keep your distance and be aggerssive. Remember that action is ALWAYS faster than reaction. The average person takes about .75 of a sec. to react. That's time to get busy. Attack them. By doing this you have suprise.
And be sure to get the leader first in the most violent action possible. This will have a demoralizing effect on his buddies. Good Luck, Lyle

Always cheat, always win. A lot of people have said this.

JollyRoger · September 15, 2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

This is an old Rick Miller drill. I used to practice it but haven't in awhile. According to the drill, you push off with your weak hand while drawing and falling to your back while shooting.

I actually got trained this way at the academy, 21 years ago. The idea was to create distance with an unarmed attacker, you while you drew your gun (on the way down) and thereafter held him at gunpoint (two hand, full extension) and regained your feet, or shot. Never much cared for the technique, really. Falling on practice mats and soft ground is one thing. Asphalt and concrete are different, and if you happen to lose the gun, you can get kicked or stomped pretty quick.

For the purposes of this scenario, however, it's not too bad of an option. On the one hand, you can create distance and shoot; on the other hand, you are dead weight on the ground and can make it pretty difficult to carry you off. The limiting factor, however, is your assailants' desire to kidnap rather than kill you. If they decide to shoot you with those long guns they're carrying, on your back at close range is not the place to be.

Al Thompson · September 15, 2010, 10:37 AM

Had the same concerns when I was deployed.

Couple of points - unit SOP may screw this up, but I found that a decent concealable holster kept a lot of folks from knowing I was armed. Surprising the bad guys is always a good thing. I used a yaqui slide and was rarely made in ACUs. The slide compressed enough to be comfortable when I had my IBA on. When my IBA was on, the M9 was on the IBA.

Obviously, always keep a round chambered.

Test your M9 magazines extensively. Don't marry them, if one chokes, kill it and get a new one.

Carry a knife that you can access with your weak hand. I preferred a 3 or 4 inch fixed blade on my belt, next to my spare magazines. A good spot for additional magazines or a folding knife is the ankle/calf pockets on your ACUs.

Keep a decent amount of loaded mags on your person and more on your IBA. My thought was to always have a fighting load on my person and used the IBA for more goodies and novelties.

I wanted to be able to fight even if I dropped the IBA or was on the FOB without it handy. I kept 5 magazines on my person, a good knife and a improvised tourniquet.

As far as the drill itself, the shoot from the hip may be necessary, though I train a much more on firing from step two of the four count draw. Puts your pistol in a better spot. If your firing from the hip, your probably rolling around on the ground. To train this safely, bring your weak hand up and hold it in a block position next to the ear on that side.

FWIW, we had a kidnapping attempt in our unit. The bad guys tried to knockout their target by hitting him in the head with a rock, darn near worked.

MTT TL · September 15, 2010, 11:39 AM

I can't foresee me going to the ground intentionally. We did shoot from the ground for a practice drill.

The big problem with the M9 is the crappy safety. Once you draw with one hand you are stuck with trying to thumb the safety which is too far for most people.

markj · September 15, 2010, 03:40 PM

Who really knows what they will do at any moment. Defense is reactive, offense is proactive.

I was attacked by 5 guys late at night as I was closing the bar. They suffered and went to jail/prison. No gun, no knife, just me. Was in the 80s I was a bouncer at my Dads bar. Was knifed there, shot at and shot once. I dont play these games of the mind. Get some training, learn how to hurt hard and fast or you wont make it.

raimius · September 15, 2010, 08:31 PM

Firing from step 2 of the 4-step drawstroke seems like it would be easier to get good hits with vs. firing from the hip. You can create a more repeatible position by bringing your elbow up high.

I think distance plays one of the most important functions in this one. At arm or elbow distance, a good shove would probably be neccessary. At a couple feet, firing from retention/step 2/hip would probably be wise. For further distances, a partial to full stance might work. Have you trained fringing from multiple parts of your draw stroke, in a string? Your first shot of the string may or may not be a solid COM hit, but the other 1-3 you can take before full presentation should be pretty darn accurate. I would think that would drive most people back (hopefully 2-3 good hits on them).

Rifleman 173 · September 19, 2010, 10:42 PM

It depends on what your local laws allow you to do. If it is an attempted kidnapping then most states allow you to use force to defend yourself. In some states, multiple attackers can also be a felony that lets you defend yourself with force too. Illinois has a law which basically is called "mob action" and is used when more than one attacker comes at another person.

If I were being jumped by more than one person, I would keep my gun low and close to my body. This would be done if they were almost making contact with me or less than 7 feet distance. I would engage with multiple close range shots trying to hit at about the belt buckle and up.

If I have a little room to work, I would bring up my handgun and prepare to engage once they started getting too close to me. I would also, if time allows, try to put my back against something like the side of a car or the front or side of a wall or building. I would limit their ability to approach me or get behind me if I could. Again, I would launch multiple shots into my attackers if I could do so.

smince · September 20, 2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

There is a growing segment of the training community dedicated to extremely close quarters shooting. A trainer called "South Narc" seems to be one of the acknowledged leaders in this area. His site is www.shivworks.com. Gabe Suarez and Tactical Response offer training in this as well.

I can personally vouch for this S.I. course, 0-5Ft Gunfighting:
http://www.suarezinternationalstore....ighting-2.aspx

Excellent class.

September 15, 2010, 10:37 AM	#28
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Had the same concerns when I was deployed. Couple of points - unit SOP may screw this up, but I found that a decent concealable holster kept a lot of folks from knowing I was armed. Surprising the bad guys is always a good thing. I used a yaqui slide and was rarely made in ACUs. The slide compressed enough to be comfortable when I had my IBA on. When my IBA was on, the M9 was on the IBA. Obviously, always keep a round chambered. Test your M9 magazines extensively. Don't marry them, if one chokes, kill it and get a new one. Carry a knife that you can access with your weak hand. I preferred a 3 or 4 inch fixed blade on my belt, next to my spare magazines. A good spot for additional magazines or a folding knife is the ankle/calf pockets on your ACUs. Keep a decent amount of loaded mags on your person and more on your IBA. My thought was to always have a fighting load on my person and used the IBA for more goodies and novelties. I wanted to be able to fight even if I dropped the IBA or was on the FOB without it handy. I kept 5 magazines on my person, a good knife and a improvised tourniquet. As far as the drill itself, the shoot from the hip may be necessary, though I train a much more on firing from step two of the four count draw. Puts your pistol in a better spot. If your firing from the hip, your probably rolling around on the ground. To train this safely, bring your weak hand up and hold it in a block position next to the ear on that side. FWIW, we had a kidnapping attempt in our unit. The bad guys tried to knockout their target by hitting him in the head with a rock, darn near worked. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/ Last edited by Al Thompson; September 15, 2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: darn typos

September 15, 2010, 11:39 AM	#29
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I can't foresee me going to the ground intentionally. We did shoot from the ground for a practice drill. The big problem with the M9 is the crappy safety. Once you draw with one hand you are stuck with trying to thumb the safety which is too far for most people. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

September 15, 2010, 02:35 AM	#26
Eagle0711 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 782	A few thoughts; Don't bring your gun to eye level for two reasons. The first is a B.G. may[ can ] grab it, and it will block your line of sight so that you cannot see everything. A trainned person will move so as ot hide behind it. A semi-auto is not the best choice, but will work if you know your tool. If you jam the gun into the B.G.s gut the disco will prevent the gun from firing, and in practice my shirt gets blown by the wind an has caused problems as the slide gets hung in the shirt. You must know how to use your weapon effectively. The revolver especially the snuby really is an advantage as the short barrel makes it hard to take away. The revolver can be pressed into the body of the aggerssor and the gasses will cause major damage. The knife if you don't let then see it, only feel it can be damaging beyond belief. The down side is the cops frown on using a blade and you'll probably be arrested. At least around here shooting a aggressor is socially acceptable. I actually think that the scenerio presebted by the O.P. is very likely in today's world. Keep your distance and be aggerssive. Remember that action is ALWAYS faster than reaction. The average person takes about .75 of a sec. to react. That's time to get busy. Attack them. By doing this you have suprise. And be sure to get the leader first in the most violent action possible. This will have a demoralizing effect on his buddies. Good Luck, Lyle Always cheat, always win. A lot of people have said this.

September 15, 2010, 03:40 PM	#30
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Who really knows what they will do at any moment. Defense is reactive, offense is proactive. I was attacked by 5 guys late at night as I was closing the bar. They suffered and went to jail/prison. No gun, no knife, just me. Was in the 80s I was a bouncer at my Dads bar. Was knifed there, shot at and shot once. I dont play these games of the mind. Get some training, learn how to hurt hard and fast or you wont make it.

September 15, 2010, 08:31 PM	#31
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Firing from step 2 of the 4-step drawstroke seems like it would be easier to get good hits with vs. firing from the hip. You can create a more repeatible position by bringing your elbow up high. I think distance plays one of the most important functions in this one. At arm or elbow distance, a good shove would probably be neccessary. At a couple feet, firing from retention/step 2/hip would probably be wise. For further distances, a partial to full stance might work. Have you trained fringing from multiple parts of your draw stroke, in a string? Your first shot of the string may or may not be a solid COM hit, but the other 1-3 you can take before full presentation should be pretty darn accurate. I would think that would drive most people back (hopefully 2-3 good hits on them).

September 19, 2010, 10:42 PM	#32
Rifleman 173 Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 589	It depends on what your local laws allow you to do. If it is an attempted kidnapping then most states allow you to use force to defend yourself. In some states, multiple attackers can also be a felony that lets you defend yourself with force too. Illinois has a law which basically is called "mob action" and is used when more than one attacker comes at another person. If I were being jumped by more than one person, I would keep my gun low and close to my body. This would be done if they were almost making contact with me or less than 7 feet distance. I would engage with multiple close range shots trying to hit at about the belt buckle and up. If I have a little room to work, I would bring up my handgun and prepare to engage once they started getting too close to me. I would also, if time allows, try to put my back against something like the side of a car or the front or side of a wall or building. I would limit their ability to approach me or get behind me if I could. Again, I would launch multiple shots into my attackers if I could do so.