HEAD SHOTS vs CENTER MASS

[echo6actual]

I would like to get some opinions on aiming for head shots vs center mass.

A head shot is the shot, dropped, and stopped approach. Where as the

center mass approach has a higher probability of hitting. Some special forces

circles argue they aim for head shots only, because it's the only true way to

be sure of stopping the target and they may be wearing body armor. Some

military and police circles argue center mass for higher probability of hitting

their intended target. What are your opinions and/or experiences with this?

What do you recommend and why?

[VHinch]

Didn't we just do this one?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412210

The initial premise of that thread was one stop shots, but it centered mostly around head shots vs. center mass.

[troy_mclure]

speaking from experience, its very hard to keep somebody's head lined up for the shot. its harder than it would seem, and especially if the target knows you are aiming at them.

[MilProAkron]

"Some" special forces circles may. It depends on the mission and training. Counter-terror spec ops guys do train for what they call the "madula shot" aiming for the triangle that is created from between the eyes down to the corners of the mouth. But, they run through thousands of rounds per week and they are training for hostage rescue operations where shot placement is critical.

I did some handgun training with what used to be SEAL 6 and that is what they did. But, when they were training US in handgun combat skills, they trained us for center mass. Its the mission that determines the approach. We were grunts and had no need for that type of shooting.

No doubt the headshot is optimum for stopping an attacker, but your average person will never be able to spend enough time training on that to be able to accomplish it under stress.

[Double Naught Spy]

No, head shots are NOT the only sure way of dropping the target. The only sure way of dropping the target is through significant destruction in the higher CNS structures.

There is a lot of area and volume on the head that can be hit and not produce any sort of stop or significant CNS destruction.

[ClydeFrog]

I highly advocate aiming for the center mass or lower center mass/lower torso for duty/protection handgun use.
Headshots can cause a quick end to a critical event but the human head is small and not as thick as a chest or lower body, .
Your goal in a deadly force incident is to end it ASAP. If a subject does not fall or stop being an active threat with shots to the center mass or torso then head shots or aiming for the arms/legs may be needed.
Some instructors/tactics trainers call this method the "Mozambique Drill" or the "Failure To Stop" drill.
Headshots should NOT be your first target. A gun magazine article from many years ago made a few good points about the topic. One real concern was a wounded subject with a serious head injury(being in a wheelchair or in a coma) making the shooter "look" wrong or evil in court.
Now that may seem extreme but even a 6'06" ax murderer/serial rapist could get jury members who would wince or "feel bad" when they see them in a court room.
Aiming for the head also creates a serious risk to innocent bystanders and others who could be hit by a round. As stated the head is a smaller target. You may be a pistol team expert or be able to hit a paper target 3/5 times at 50ft in the head but why take the risk in the stress & caos of a critical incident?

[Ricky]

I practice two in the chest, one in the head. In reality I suspect that the BG may be going down before I get the 3rd shot in.
I think the SEAL's practice head shots because their targets may be wearing body armor, not likely for us civilians.

[Double Naught Spy]

"Some" special forces circles may. It depends on the mission and training. Counter-terror spec ops guys do train for what they call the "madula shot" aiming for the triangle that is created from between the eyes down to the corners of the mouth.

This actually brings up an interesting point and shot placement and also about trajectory. The idea behind the "medulla shot" is to hit (destroy or otherwise damage directly or indirectly) the medulla oblongata which is the lower brain stem. This is a really small target to hit given that it is a target that is unseen to the shooter.

Hitting this shot requires that the bullet impacts the face nearly straight on. If you aim for that triangle for a person whose head is bowed down slight or who is looking left or right, the the bullet may enter at the correct location, but the trajectory will be such that the medulla region is likely missed. In other words, no longer will exist a trajectory that will take the bullet from the muzzle through the target zone on the face and then through the medulla area. So the shooter has to know that external landmarks only work when the trajectory aligment is correct.

People talk about head shots on hogs and shooting them in the "ear hole" to hit the brain. That will work for a head broadside shot. For front or quarter front shots, you will likely miss the brain.

[mete]

The head is never a sure thing ! One Viet Nam veteran I know was shot through the head with a 45acp .Survived and by no means a vegetable ! Many have survived because the skull is curved and this has deflected the bullet. A recent news item showed a soldier sitting on the table in the hospital talking to the doctors. With a large knife fully penetrating into the side of his head !! The knife had gone just below the brain.
Center of mass is not the best place. The aimpoint should be upper chest as there's more vital stuff there.
Remember also that dynamics ,movement make things very different.

[Old Grump]

Yes VHinch, we did just do this thread and my answer is still the same.

To high up on the frontal bone and the bullet can glance off, to far below the nasal bone and it might not be a stopping shot. You have a target less than 3" high and 5" wide that is moving, you are distracted by the shooters gun and you are suffering from tunnel vision, and loss of hand eye coordination plus fighting the wobble from your increased heart rate. That makes a head shot viable only if you are really lucky or you train really hard.

2 hits guaranteed to drop your opponent, a hit to the central nervous system, difficult in the best of situations or a shot to a knee cap. You only thought a hit to the head was hard.

Center of mass is still the best bet for the majority of people in the majority of cases and head shots for those who really train hard at making them and have been through that kind of party before. Till you have been in that situation you don't have a clue as to how you will react so your ability to shoot 2" groups at a stationary target at 25 yards will mean nothing unless you were born with ice water in your veins. Most of us weren't.

My personal choice of SD weapon only carries 6 bullets so I have to be a little more careful. If I am on my feet at home my revolver is exchanged for a shotgun where I do practice head and groin shots. Not nice but if I am defending family and home I have no intention of being nice about it. On paper targets I do pin point targets like shooting hand wrist or right eyebrow but I also admit to showing off because I can. In real life all my bullets are going into the thorax and shame on me if I miss. I know what adrenaline does to you, even to us old dinosaurs.

echo6actual, a search on this topic will show the same thing no matter how many times we go over this. Only people who have never been in a fight think they will be cool enough and good enough to make that small almost impossible shot up close and personal under a life threatening situation and most likely in bad light. If you want to do head shots then use a large gauge shotgun and don't miss or the boogerman is going to be really upset with you.

Try this, get a nerf gun, the ones that shoot soft sponge rubber darts at low velocity. Get your target bad guy in a helmet, preferably with face shield like a motorcycle helmet. Now let somebody punch you in the nose, and in the stomach. Then he or she stands there to yell and scream in your ear. The bad guy is blasting you with his squirt gun and you are getting all wet. Try and get that single shot off to his helmet and if you do hit the helmet check and see if it would have hit the relatively small area that your brain pan resides in.

A friend of mine just went through a real life gun battle when a bad guy tried to rob the little store/gas station he was at. Bad guy died of his wounds, My friend got off 5 shots, 4 of them hits on the bad guy, no idea where the other round went. He is an Iraq veteran still on active duty. Not exactly a greenhorn who has never seen combat before. He is recovering from stomach and leg wounds, bad guy died.

Real life is never sweet and clean like in the movies where its all scripted out, it's messy and there are no guarantees.

Dawg, if you are monitoring this chime in. Especially if I made any factual errors.

[TylerD45ACP]

1 Attacker---2 shots to the chest. If that produces a failure to stop go for the headshot.
Multipe Attackers--- 1 shot to each chest as fast as possible. Then deal with the threats as necessary if they were not stopped. Follow up headshot.

[won-a-glock]

My question on the head shot is if you can *precisely* hit the golf ball sized kill zone on a target likely to not be very still.

If you go through 1000 rounds a week practicing that may be a good assumption. If not, I'd think a 12 gauge 00 / slug to COM is a better stopping shot.

[TylerD45ACP]

Im confident enough with my 1911 to stop anyone who tried to harm me. I think confidence in ones equipment is very important. I shoot the best with it. No it will not be easy to hit the cerebellum but hey aim small miss small.

[ranburr]

There is a video of a TX state trooper trying to shoot an old rancher in the head with his issued Sig. The rancher was walking towards him with a mini-14. The trooper was shooting fast and furious to slide lock. The old guy calmly walked up to the trooper and shot him dead. He then sat and waited to be arrested. When he was arrested, not a single bullet hit him, but his cowboy hat was full of holes.

[TylerD45ACP]

Wow. Thats nuts. Just goes to show there is an infinite number of strange scenarios. Anything can happen in a SD situation.

[jhenry]

I bet that Texas cop was confident with his weapon too. Didn't mean squat when the rubber met the road did it.

I would wager if he would have used center of mass as his target instead of the old coot's noggin, he would be alive now. Those shots that perforated the hat likely would have been torso shots of one sort or another. Aim for the center of the biggest part available. Continue until the threat is no longer a threat.

[TylerD45ACP]

I would take into consideration if I were the trooper the fact that he has a long gun. I need to get one or get cover quick and try to do what I can with the pistol. Not shoot at this guys head with my entire magazine, COM he'd of downed him with all the hole in his hat. The head shot is a follow up. State trooper unfortunatley made a fatal mistake.

[jhenry]

He sure did. If the story is accurate, he tried for a head shot and got mentally locked into it. Then he couldn't miss fast enough to win. Center of mass is the way to go in most any instance. A long gun would have been even better.

[TylerD45ACP]

That would be the heat of the moment though. Like you said got locked into "Im getting this headshot" then every time he misses he probably got more and more upset throwing him off more. Had he take a little more time there could have been a very different outcome. I agree COM is the way to go. The head shot is the failure to stop shot.

[Jo6pak]

Center mass.

[Double Naught Spy]

He then sat and waited to be arrested. When he was arrested, not a single bullet hit him, but his cowboy hat was full of holes.

Link?

I know a lot of the TxDPS stories, but not that one.

[geoffthesnake]

practice head shots for zombies.

[TylerD45ACP]

Zombies get the beta C 100rd mag out of my AR. Have a few of those and magazines taped together. 1911A1 for my pistol. Probably a 9mm for capacity too.

[los]

COM = bigger target
COM -CNS shot placement = instant neutralization of threat.
Missed head shots along with contagious fire = empty weapon.

practice, Practice, PRACTICE.

[TylerD45ACP]

Yep. Got to be on top of you game.