My original Winchester 1873

Centurion · May 10, 2016, 10:43 AM

I've got an original 73 carbine from 1887 in 44-40, in original condition, with all their original parts and fully functional though his external condition isn't the best one. I cannot blame on it because obviously it is a legend by itself.

Attached you can see it sided by a Colt bowie and a Pietta Bison.

The rifle is not much accurate, although their rifling is in very good condition, so I suppose their issue is that today bullets are of a smaller caliber than the gun.

44-40 ammo I found is .427 and the rifle is almost .432.

Do you know any place where I could buy a set of molds for .432 or .434 caliber?

Is my problem the only one or a common one?

mapsjanhere · May 10, 2016, 01:50 PM

No idea about molds, but Midway has some rather affordable 431 bullets

JWT · May 10, 2016, 02:40 PM

Nice looking rifle.

Centurion · May 10, 2016, 02:59 PM

From the time when things were made to last not a lifetime but several.

James K · May 10, 2016, 03:37 PM

"...when things were made to last not a lifetime but several."

Not really, at least as far as the 1873 goes. They actually wear out pretty rapidly if fired very much, which is why it is hard to find a good, tight, '73. Mostly, the links and pins wear, along with the iron receivers themselves where the bolt rubs. The use of hot modern loads in '73 clones is not a great idea, even though the materials are better than in the original guns. They were better than the bronze '66's but not really a very good or durable rifle by today's standards and expectations.

Jim

Centurion · May 10, 2016, 03:49 PM

Mine for sure was not very much used...since it is still very tight.

Regarding the rest of your comments I agree that contrary to popular belief these old guns were not as strong as we think they are.

reddog81 · May 10, 2016, 05:20 PM

I would guess that most 44 Magnum bullet molds will drop bullets around .432 to .434.

I would have to agree that the guns from the 1860's to 1880's were quite a bit more fragile than the stuff even low end manufacturers are putting out today. The advances made in the early 1900's in design and metallurgy were huge.

JT-AR-MG42 · May 10, 2016, 09:01 PM

FWIW, Since you can only use bullets of a diameter that allow you to
chamber a loaded round,

The OP might want to measure the interior diameter of a fired case
to see what diameter bullet can be safely reloaded.

Soft 40-1 bullets might help to bump up for bore seal if you cannot use bullets that match the bore when reloading.

The above cast bullet ratio helped me with an '86 and a high wall that were both chambered in 40-82.
Both rifles had .4085 bores but the chambers would only accept .406 bullets.

I could have inside neck reamed the cases, but the thin case mouth and neck on a .44-40
precludes that solution.

Fired with duplexed black powder of course.

JT

gyvel · May 11, 2016, 01:42 AM

Quote:

The use of hot modern loads in '73 clones is not a great idea, even though the materials are better than in the original guns.

So, Jim, do you think the Winchester/Browning/Miroku '73s aren't going to take a lot of .357 before there're problems? I bought one, and it's a beautiful "work of art," but my guess is that I probably should stick to the .38 specials if what you say is true.

James K · May 11, 2016, 08:41 PM

As others have said, modern copies are of much better material than the originals, but true copies are still weak actions, kept locked by links that lock up just past dead center. I think if you compare the lockup of a '73 to that of a '92 or a '94, you will see that the newer guns have a big advantage in strength even beyond the use of modern steel instead of 19th century wrought iron.

I do not have one of the Miroku '73's, but AFAIK is it a true copy. Some lever actions, like the modern Henry rifles, are made to look like the old timers, but have a redesigned and much stronger action underneath the old appearance.

To try and answer the specific question, I would think it is probably a good idea to stick to moderate loads in that .357, but you could contact Winchester and see what they say.

Jim

eastbank · May 12, 2016, 08:11 AM

if you want a 44 mag,buy one. the 44-40 was not intended to be a 44 mag. in a good safe to start 1873 rifle and a 44-40 cast 200gr bullet at 1100-1200fps will not harm the rifle. not the same rifle,but a bigger clone of the 1873, the 1876 was shot to untill it was disabled when in came out by winchester, google up the tests, it may surprise you. i shoot three 44-40 rifles useing unique powder and 200gr cast bullets and have killed several deer with broadside double lung shots at less than 100yrds with complete pass thru,s with little tracking being needed. again if you need a hopped up 44, buy a mag. eastbank.

Centurion · May 12, 2016, 01:02 PM

Since it is an original old warrior, I'll never ask him to perform like a modern 44.

I'll try to get a new mold to improve its accuracy and that's all.

Thks!

Gaucho Gringo · May 12, 2016, 07:02 PM

The '66 & '73 from what I have read were in production up until 1919 27 years after the introduction of their logical replacement, the '92. Probably not that many were sold after the introduction of the '92 but they were still available. If the toggle link is that bad why would someone buy one when the price was not that far apart?

Hawg · May 12, 2016, 07:09 PM

Seems to me your best bet is getting a bullet mold/dies for heeled bullets.

May 10, 2016, 01:50 PM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	No idea about molds, but Midway has some rather affordable 431 bullets __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 12, 2016, 07:02 PM	#13
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	The '66 & '73 from what I have read were in production up until 1919 27 years after the introduction of their logical replacement, the '92. Probably not that many were sold after the introduction of the '92 but they were still available. If the toggle link is that bad why would someone buy one when the price was not that far apart? __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

May 10, 2016, 02:40 PM	#3
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	Nice looking rifle.

May 10, 2016, 02:59 PM	#4
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	From the time when things were made to last not a lifetime but several.

May 10, 2016, 03:37 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"...when things were made to last not a lifetime but several." Not really, at least as far as the 1873 goes. They actually wear out pretty rapidly if fired very much, which is why it is hard to find a good, tight, '73. Mostly, the links and pins wear, along with the iron receivers themselves where the bolt rubs. The use of hot modern loads in '73 clones is not a great idea, even though the materials are better than in the original guns. They were better than the bronze '66's but not really a very good or durable rifle by today's standards and expectations. Jim

May 10, 2016, 03:49 PM	#6
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Mine for sure was not very much used...since it is still very tight. Regarding the rest of your comments I agree that contrary to popular belief these old guns were not as strong as we think they are.

May 10, 2016, 05:20 PM	#7
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	I would guess that most 44 Magnum bullet molds will drop bullets around .432 to .434. I would have to agree that the guns from the 1860's to 1880's were quite a bit more fragile than the stuff even low end manufacturers are putting out today. The advances made in the early 1900's in design and metallurgy were huge.

May 10, 2016, 09:01 PM	#8
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	FWIW, Since you can only use bullets of a diameter that allow you to chamber a loaded round, The OP might want to measure the interior diameter of a fired case to see what diameter bullet can be safely reloaded. Soft 40-1 bullets might help to bump up for bore seal if you cannot use bullets that match the bore when reloading. The above cast bullet ratio helped me with an '86 and a high wall that were both chambered in 40-82. Both rifles had .4085 bores but the chambers would only accept .406 bullets. I could have inside neck reamed the cases, but the thin case mouth and neck on a .44-40 precludes that solution. Fired with duplexed black powder of course. JT

May 11, 2016, 08:41 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	As others have said, modern copies are of much better material than the originals, but true copies are still weak actions, kept locked by links that lock up just past dead center. I think if you compare the lockup of a '73 to that of a '92 or a '94, you will see that the newer guns have a big advantage in strength even beyond the use of modern steel instead of 19th century wrought iron. I do not have one of the Miroku '73's, but AFAIK is it a true copy. Some lever actions, like the modern Henry rifles, are made to look like the old timers, but have a redesigned and much stronger action underneath the old appearance. To try and answer the specific question, I would think it is probably a good idea to stick to moderate loads in that .357, but you could contact Winchester and see what they say. Jim

May 12, 2016, 08:11 AM	#11
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	if you want a 44 mag,buy one. the 44-40 was not intended to be a 44 mag. in a good safe to start 1873 rifle and a 44-40 cast 200gr bullet at 1100-1200fps will not harm the rifle. not the same rifle,but a bigger clone of the 1873, the 1876 was shot to untill it was disabled when in came out by winchester, google up the tests, it may surprise you. i shoot three 44-40 rifles useing unique powder and 200gr cast bullets and have killed several deer with broadside double lung shots at less than 100yrds with complete pass thru,s with little tracking being needed. again if you need a hopped up 44, buy a mag. eastbank.

May 12, 2016, 01:02 PM	#12
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Since it is an original old warrior, I'll never ask him to perform like a modern 44. I'll try to get a new mold to improve its accuracy and that's all. Thks!

May 12, 2016, 07:09 PM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Seems to me your best bet is getting a bullet mold/dies for heeled bullets.