Winchester buck (slug) and ball ammo

bamaranger · July 29, 2010, 02:28 AM

Have you seen this ammo? I was at Wally World today, and there on a shelf was current Win ammo, consisting of a 1 oz slug, and three 00 buck pellets!

What's the consensus of this load as a combat load? I'll likely buy a box just for the novelty if nothing else, though the concept is interesting.

Seems like I've heard a similar arrangement used by the SAS in Malaysia. Possibly Selous Scouts in South Africa as well.

Dave McC · July 29, 2010, 07:08 AM

Buck and Ball loads weren't new when the Continental Army used them. Later, they helped give Bloody Lane at Antietam its name.

Currently, they have little or no advantage over plain old 00.

Sphawley · July 29, 2010, 10:04 AM

This is winchesters PDX1 round. It has 1oz. rifled slug with three 00 pellets in front of this, making for some serious stopping power.

I really like these and they group really well, I put them through my Benelli.

DPris · July 29, 2010, 11:33 AM

Tried some in a Remington 870 last week.
They pattern in a rough triangle, with the slug striking approximately in the center.
Good to about 25 yards in my gun, as far as keeping all four projectiles inside the edges of a human silhouette.
Beyond that, they spread to the point where one or all of the buck pellets begin to raise the liability of missing the target & striking a bystander if used in a defensive situation.
The slug can obviously carry much farther with reasonable accuracy, but I didn't bother to go beyond 25 with it.
Denis

bamaranger · July 30, 2010, 10:23 AM

My first thought was the .69 cal civil war buck and ball load as well.

Rampant_Colt · July 30, 2010, 10:37 AM

Buck n ball is known for erratic, unpredictable patterns, increasing the likelihood for collateral damages.
It offers no advantage over slugs or buckshot that i can see..

rantingredneck · July 30, 2010, 10:54 AM

They also have a .410 round, I'm assuming targeted at owners of the Taurus Judge, that uses two cylindrical looking "slugs" and BB shot.

More exotic marketing to separate you from your wallet, IMO.

Much like Remington's Ultimate HD loads which are duplex 2x4 or BBx2 loads.

I'll stick with Federal LE12700 flite control 00 buck and Brenneke Slugs thanks.

DPris · July 30, 2010, 01:46 PM

I've also tried the .410, in a Marlin levergun.
Not sure the BBs do much.
In the 12 gauge, that combination does put a lot of energy into a target.
Denis

B. Lahey · July 30, 2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Not sure the BBs do much.

I read a lengthy shotgun ballistics piece a while back that had some extensive testing (that I unfortunately can not find at the moment). It showed lead BBs to be surprisingly effective. The majority of the pellets penetrated around 12" and the jello looked to be in seriously poor condition after the test shot.

Never would have guessed it, but it seems to be at least a non-bonkers choice.

Anyone know where the referenced article was posted? I think it was on a shotgun forum, but there are a million of those...

DPris · July 30, 2010, 04:05 PM

The 12 BBs are copperplated, I didn't try to determine if they're traditional steel BBs (looked about the same size) or lead under the plating.
They tend to spread much faster than 000 buck, about three times as much at 25 yards as the buck, and I'd consider that load a close range proposition.
It also uses three disks.

It's mentioned briefly in an article in the current Gun World.

Denis

rantingredneck · July 30, 2010, 04:10 PM

That's the point that most folks miss in the great and ongoing bird v. buck debate. Range matters.

At contact distance anything out of a 12 ga. is likely to stop the aggressor, but as range moves from feet to yards bigger shot shines.

Dave McC · July 30, 2010, 05:26 PM

At contact distance, a load of breath mints would be devastating. But pellets without much sectional density and weight lose energy very fast,even within a few feet of the muzzle. Skeet loads of 9s may act like giant Glaser Safety Slugs while still in the wad, but at 15 yards there's better choices.

Since we cannot predict the range or conditions of our next firefight,t'is best to stick to BIG pellets and of course,get lots of practice.

As to the load mentioned by the OP, I can not see any situation where this would be an improvement over big buck shot.

DPris · July 30, 2010, 05:28 PM

Penetration.

Denis

July 29, 2010, 02:28 AM	#1
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,309	Winchester buck (slug) and ball ammo Have you seen this ammo? I was at Wally World today, and there on a shelf was current Win ammo, consisting of a 1 oz slug, and three 00 buck pellets! What's the consensus of this load as a combat load? I'll likely buy a box just for the novelty if nothing else, though the concept is interesting. Seems like I've heard a similar arrangement used by the SAS in Malaysia. Possibly Selous Scouts in South Africa as well.

July 30, 2010, 10:23 AM	#5
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,309	buck and ball My first thought was the .69 cal civil war buck and ball load as well.

July 30, 2010, 10:37 AM	#6
Rampant_Colt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 1,478	marketing 101 Buck n ball is known for erratic, unpredictable patterns, increasing the likelihood for collateral damages. It offers no advantage over slugs or buckshot that i can see.. __________________ member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts

July 30, 2010, 10:54 AM	#7
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	They also have a .410 round, I'm assuming targeted at owners of the Taurus Judge, that uses two cylindrical looking "slugs" and BB shot. More exotic marketing to separate you from your wallet, IMO. Much like Remington's Ultimate HD loads which are duplex 2x4 or BBx2 loads. I'll stick with Federal LE12700 flite control 00 buck and Brenneke Slugs thanks. __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

July 30, 2010, 04:10 PM	#11
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	That's the point that most folks miss in the great and ongoing bird v. buck debate. Range matters. At contact distance anything out of a 12 ga. is likely to stop the aggressor, but as range moves from feet to yards bigger shot shines. __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

July 29, 2010, 07:08 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Buck and Ball loads weren't new when the Continental Army used them. Later, they helped give Bloody Lane at Antietam its name. Currently, they have little or no advantage over plain old 00.

July 29, 2010, 10:04 AM	#3
Sphawley Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 272	This is winchesters PDX1 round. It has 1oz. rifled slug with three 00 pellets in front of this, making for some serious stopping power. I really like these and they group really well, I put them through my Benelli.

July 29, 2010, 11:33 AM	#4
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Tried some in a Remington 870 last week. They pattern in a rough triangle, with the slug striking approximately in the center. Good to about 25 yards in my gun, as far as keeping all four projectiles inside the edges of a human silhouette. Beyond that, they spread to the point where one or all of the buck pellets begin to raise the liability of missing the target & striking a bystander if used in a defensive situation. The slug can obviously carry much farther with reasonable accuracy, but I didn't bother to go beyond 25 with it. Denis

July 30, 2010, 01:46 PM	#8
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I've also tried the .410, in a Marlin levergun. Not sure the BBs do much. In the 12 gauge, that combination does put a lot of energy into a target. Denis

July 30, 2010, 04:05 PM	#10
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	The 12 BBs are copperplated, I didn't try to determine if they're traditional steel BBs (looked about the same size) or lead under the plating. They tend to spread much faster than 000 buck, about three times as much at 25 yards as the buck, and I'd consider that load a close range proposition. It also uses three disks. It's mentioned briefly in an article in the current Gun World. Denis

July 30, 2010, 05:26 PM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	At contact distance, a load of breath mints would be devastating. But pellets without much sectional density and weight lose energy very fast,even within a few feet of the muzzle. Skeet loads of 9s may act like giant Glaser Safety Slugs while still in the wad, but at 15 yards there's better choices. Since we cannot predict the range or conditions of our next firefight,t'is best to stick to BIG pellets and of course,get lots of practice. As to the load mentioned by the OP, I can not see any situation where this would be an improvement over big buck shot.

July 30, 2010, 05:28 PM	#13
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Penetration. Denis