Whats this win m12 worth - Page 2

manther · July 29, 2010, 02:28 PM

Cool, I should not sleep on the BPS. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not but my friend found a BPS upland at at pawnshop, and he described the gun as almost flawless looking (95%). I called them today they have it at $320. Over the phone they offered $300. It has a 28 inch barrel and a screw in full choke. I think I'll drive over there today and take a look at it, and take some pictures. I'd like to know the year too.

BigJim do you know the actual differences between the Hunter and the upland. I can tell the stock shape is different. Is that all? Is one heavier etc.?

BigJimP · July 29, 2010, 02:58 PM

The BPS Hunter model from Browning site

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...unter-firearms

The BPS Upland

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...ecial-firearms

-----------------------

the primary difference is the length of barrel on the Upland model / the current catalog lists them in 12ga at 22" ( which is very short - it makes the gun real "whippy" ). The length of pull on the Hunter model is 14 1/4" and the upland is 14" - both are pretty short ( I like mine at about 14 1/2") - but drop at Heel and drop at Comb are the same on both --- and weight on upland is a few ounces less. They list new for about the same price $ 599 but I think the average street price new is around $ 525.

"Fit" is the big thing on a shotgun / so it hits where you look. You may find over time / that you need less drop at comb and/or heel - but either can have comb pads or different recoil pads put on them to "fit" you.

I also like a little more weight in my typical "field gun" ... in a 12ga up around 8 1/2 lbs is better for me / so the weight helps me smooth out my swing on follow thru. If I go shorter than a 28" barrel / I tend to steer the gun with my forward hand / and it gets too whippy --- where I "swat" at targets or birds vs shoot smoothly and follow thru smoothly. Remember - pulling the trigger on a shotgun is the start of the shot ( not the end ) -- you have to follow thru / or you will be behind every thing ...

The longer barrel gives a longer sight plane too ...which is a plus. The argument for the "upland" is in a brushy area .... guys want a lightning quick gun for grouse, etc ....but frankly, I'm just as quick with a 28" as I would be with a 26" or 24" ....and I can shoot them way better / and they're more versatile ( for me ) .... What works best for you / don't know ....

The resale on the Hunter model, in 28" --- will be way better than the Upland model ---because a lot more shooters will adapt to it better than the shorter 22" barrel ( for birds, clays, etc )... I've even gone to a 30" barrel on my semi-auto / and 30" barrels on my Over Unders which I bird hunt with a lot as well. A Browning Citori XS Skeet model, in 12, 20, 28ga - all with 30" barrels and a parallel adj comb are my primary guns for bird hunting, Skeet and Sporting Clays. For Trap I go - even heavier and longer - Browning XT Citori, 32" barrels, and a gun at around 10 lbs ....

remember - models change over the years too / or someone might have ordered that used Upland model with a different barrel ....but the basic BPS has been the same action for a long time.

There are 2 choke systems / the older guns ( prior to about 1990 ) had the "Invector chokes" - they screw in but they are about 1" in overall length. Since around 1990 - Browning went to the Invector Plus - where the screw in chokes are about 3" long. They are Not Interchangeable ...
The Invecotor Plus system - seems to be a little better ....but my older Brownings - a couple of old Citori Lightning's - and the 2 pump guns -- are both the older Invector style and they pattern just fine. The last several guns I've bought ( XT's, BT-100, XS Skeet models, etc ) were all Invector Plus systems ....and I typically use the Browning Midas grade extended chokes for all those guns...).

good luck.

manther · July 29, 2010, 03:25 PM

I kept seeing the words invector or invector plus. glad to know what that means now. Also I'm not convinced this upland really has a 28 inch barrel. The lady on the phone sounded way in over her head, and like she just wanted to get off the phone. I'll know the whole story today when I go look at it. I guess if it really does have a 28inch barrel on it, it may be a nice compromise to the things you like in a hunter and the things good about the upland...?

BigJimP · July 29, 2010, 04:26 PM

Yes, probably...

Check the stamped marks on the barrel - you want a gun that is chambered in 3". I don't remember if some of the older guns / prior to screw in chokes --were chambered in 2 3/4" or 3" chambers -- but a lot of the older guns are only 2 3/4" chambers.

There are some older fixed choke guns / where a gunsmith fit them for "screw in chokes" as well. So just check what the barrel says - on every shotgun.

Remember the size of a shell is determined after its fired / so the pedals crimped on top are extended. You can fire 2 3/4" or 3" shells in a 3" chamber / but you cannot fire 3" shells in a 2 3/4" chamber...there isn't room for the shell to expand. The problem is / unfired --- a 3" shell will fit into a gun chambered in 2 3/4" because unfired the shell is short enough to go in - but it won't be good if its fired.

The BPS / at least in 12ga to my knowledge is not available in 3 1/2" chambers - which some shooters think is necessary for waterfowl. Personally, a gun chambered in 3" is just fine / but you need to know what the gun is stamped.

All BPS's I've ever seen - are also stamped on the barrel whether they are Invector or Invector Plus .... or older ones may say Full or Modified ... or have some " * " symbols on them ..../ and the length of the barrel is marked on them as well. So all this should be real easy....

"Field" guns are commonly 3" or some in 3 1/2" chambers ( in last 5 yrs or so).
Many "Target grade guns" -- are 2 3/4" ....like the Citoir XS Skeet models ...

You have to match your shells to your gun / and "naming" of commercial shells - the term "Magnum" gets tossed around a lot ... and in 12ga ...magnums come in 3" and many of them come in 3 1/2" ....so you have to know your gun / and your shells ...not just by gague / also chamber length.
Don't mix up "chamber length" on a shell - with velocity -- that is measure in Dram Equivalent - where you will see 3 Dr Eq on a lot of shells / they might still, and often are, 2 3/4" shells .....

just buy a gun chambered in 3" ....whether its a BPS or something else ---and you'll be fine.

manther · July 29, 2010, 06:38 PM

Jim I bought the browning... Pictures to come.

manther · July 29, 2010, 07:30 PM

Well I went to look at the browning and it was so clean, and the guy knocked $20, and threw in a soft case. I just went ahead and bought it. I think owning a newer gun like this one will be a good thing for a beginner like me. It came with a full invector plus choke. Now I can go buy a few more, and really see what I like best.

Here's some pictures:

manther · July 29, 2010, 07:34 PM

Miata Mike · July 30, 2010, 09:36 AM

Looks like a nice gun for $300. A few more choke tubes like you say and you are all set to go! Happy shooting!

manther · July 30, 2010, 11:40 AM

Thanks man, I'm gonna test it out at the range this weekend.

BigJimP · July 30, 2010, 12:34 PM

Congratulations - looks like you did very well.

Invector Plus chokes come in 'flush' or "extended" - and Browning makes them - and so do the big name choke companies like Briley.
---------------------------
Briley's Options on chokes...(for Invector Plus)

http://www.briley.com/browninginvectorpluschokes.aspx
-----------------------
Brownings Options on Invector Plus

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...nt=Choke-Tubes

I prefer the Midas Grade extended chokes - but the flush ones are fine too.

You would be in pretty good shape if you have a Full, a Modified and an Improved Cyclinder ( which is what it would have come with new).

Make sure and give us a range report / and take it to the pattern board ( with the full choke) and check the point of impact ( shoot at a dot ) and see if its hitting high or low for you - based on the current angle of the stock, etc. Remember as you move up or back on that comb - the muzzle moves up and down ....so getting it to fit right / and then having a consistent mount is a really bid deal to your sucessful shooting.

Have some fun !!

manther · July 30, 2010, 12:58 PM

Cool, I will report back. Obviously my friend was mistaken this isn't an upland. Is it a hunter?

Again thanks for the advice.

BigJimP · July 30, 2010, 01:59 PM

It looks to me like its a Hunter model / but I don't remember if my pumps are stamped "Hunter" or not on the barrel or anywhere ...

As far as I know - the receivers on the Upland and the Hunter are the same / so it doesn't really matter. I noted the barrel in the photos says its a 3" and Invector Plus .... so it is, what it is / but I would call it a Hunter model.

Just a Note: if you find the gun is too light for you .... Go to a Golf Store and pick up a package of "lead tape" -- they sell it in packages to add weight to a driver, etc ... and there is room under the forend / to tape about 8oz .... and then take about 8oz and put it inside the stock / remove the recoil pad. Before you add any weight / check the balance point / and put some masking tape on receiver -- to find the balance point, and mark it .... so after you add weight / you can move the weight fore and aft --- so you don't screw up the balance between your hands. I like about 8oz in front and 8oz in back to increase it to about 8 1/2 lbs ...

manther · July 30, 2010, 04:56 PM

Cool, well it definitely feels heavier than the Ithaca, and Wingmaster I've been looking at, but those are well known to be light guns. After my weekend at the range I'll see how the weight feels. Man... these choke tubes are not cheap.

Dave McC · July 30, 2010, 05:32 PM

Choke tubes aren't cheap, but they do last a good while. With TLC and PM, this setup should work for the next hundred years.

The Browning pumps I've handled run maybe 6-10 oz heavier than 870s. Good guns, too.

Enjoy......

manther · July 30, 2010, 05:57 PM

Is the whole ported choke thing BS? Or is there a difference but the difference is too subtle for a beginner to notice?

BigJimP · July 30, 2010, 06:48 PM

Ported chokes are debated ... but I don't think they are worth the extra money for most shooters.

I would just stay with standard chokes - made by Browning or Briley for your gun ...and no, they are not cheap ....but the good thing is -- if you add more Brownings to your collection, and they are all Invector Chokes, in the same gague, they will fit more than one gun ( and it won't matter if they are semi-auto, pump or Over Unders ).

Chokes are specific to most mfg's guns / they are not interchangeable between guns like Remington, Mossberg, Browning, etc ...

manther · July 31, 2010, 05:04 PM

Grabbed flush-mount Mod, and IC factory Browning chokes. At this place called Rays hardware near downtown Dallas, pretty cool place. The combination of these two chokes cover me for modified in steel or lead, full in steel and IC in lead. Also got a browning choke wrench, and a pair of Peltor shotgunners ear muffs all for $100.

manther · August 1, 2010, 05:46 PM

Went to the range today and tried out the new gun for the first time. Went to Elm fork here in Dallas. http://www.elmfork.com That place was really cool. 460 acres of shooting ranges. People there were helpful and laid back. They set me up on a beginners trap. It was 104 degrees out there today. The gun was great, I shot 4 different brands of ammo out of it, and tried my modified, and improved cylinder chokes. I didn't get to pattern the gun because they were having a competition. I sucked at hitting the clays but got better towards the end when I started jumping on them sooner. I shot at 90 clays. My front arm was getting tired towards the end. Figured out the gun needs to be cleaned and oiled. It didn't want to let go of a spent cartridge once. The guys working there oiled it up a little. Thanks for all the advice and help. Later -

jhog1 · August 2, 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

But there are still a lot of the standard model 12's around / in original condition - especially in 12ga. In 28ga and .410 they will go up in a value a lot ...because a lot of guys my age had them when they were kids

The model 12 was never made in .410

BigJimP · August 2, 2010, 12:52 PM

You're right, I mis-spoke .....the .410 win pump was a model 42 .......( my mistake, and I know better ) ...

( I think of them all as model 12's ) / because to me at least they look the same ... sorry ...

BigJimP · August 2, 2010, 01:49 PM

Learn how to strip the gun down / remove the trigger group, bolt, etc ...and clean and lube it very well. There are a couple of tricks on taking it down and getting it back together - but its really easy to do ....and after you've done it 2 or 3 times you can do it in your sleep in less than 10 min ....( there is a lot of junk that builds up inside the action / if the previous owner didn't strip that down and clean it regularly ). I'd recommend you do it every time you shoot it.

Practice your gun mount at home too .....with a new gun / it takes a little time to "groove it". Look at a light switch / close your eyes / mount the gun - then open your eyes again - and you need to be looking at the switch. Do that about 30 times an evening ( with an unloaded gun of course )... It'll pay off big time / in improving your scores ...

but pattern that gun too / so you know if you need to modify the comb a little so the gun fits you.

July 29, 2010, 02:58 PM	#27
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	The BPS Hunter model from Browning site http://www.browning.com/products/cat...unter-firearms The BPS Upland http://www.browning.com/products/cat...ecial-firearms ----------------------- the primary difference is the length of barrel on the Upland model / the current catalog lists them in 12ga at 22" ( which is very short - it makes the gun real "whippy" ). The length of pull on the Hunter model is 14 1/4" and the upland is 14" - both are pretty short ( I like mine at about 14 1/2") - but drop at Heel and drop at Comb are the same on both --- and weight on upland is a few ounces less. They list new for about the same price $ 599 but I think the average street price new is around $ 525. "Fit" is the big thing on a shotgun / so it hits where you look. You may find over time / that you need less drop at comb and/or heel - but either can have comb pads or different recoil pads put on them to "fit" you. I also like a little more weight in my typical "field gun" ... in a 12ga up around 8 1/2 lbs is better for me / so the weight helps me smooth out my swing on follow thru. If I go shorter than a 28" barrel / I tend to steer the gun with my forward hand / and it gets too whippy --- where I "swat" at targets or birds vs shoot smoothly and follow thru smoothly. Remember - pulling the trigger on a shotgun is the start of the shot ( not the end ) -- you have to follow thru / or you will be behind every thing ... The longer barrel gives a longer sight plane too ...which is a plus. The argument for the "upland" is in a brushy area .... guys want a lightning quick gun for grouse, etc ....but frankly, I'm just as quick with a 28" as I would be with a 26" or 24" ....and I can shoot them way better / and they're more versatile ( for me ) .... What works best for you / don't know .... The resale on the Hunter model, in 28" --- will be way better than the Upland model ---because a lot more shooters will adapt to it better than the shorter 22" barrel ( for birds, clays, etc )... I've even gone to a 30" barrel on my semi-auto / and 30" barrels on my Over Unders which I bird hunt with a lot as well. A Browning Citori XS Skeet model, in 12, 20, 28ga - all with 30" barrels and a parallel adj comb are my primary guns for bird hunting, Skeet and Sporting Clays. For Trap I go - even heavier and longer - Browning XT Citori, 32" barrels, and a gun at around 10 lbs .... remember - models change over the years too / or someone might have ordered that used Upland model with a different barrel ....but the basic BPS has been the same action for a long time. There are 2 choke systems / the older guns ( prior to about 1990 ) had the "Invector chokes" - they screw in but they are about 1" in overall length. Since around 1990 - Browning went to the Invector Plus - where the screw in chokes are about 3" long. They are Not Interchangeable ... The Invecotor Plus system - seems to be a little better ....but my older Brownings - a couple of old Citori Lightning's - and the 2 pump guns -- are both the older Invector style and they pattern just fine. The last several guns I've bought ( XT's, BT-100, XS Skeet models, etc ) were all Invector Plus systems ....and I typically use the Browning Midas grade extended chokes for all those guns...). good luck. Last edited by BigJimP; July 29, 2010 at 03:04 PM.

July 30, 2010, 04:56 PM	#38
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Cool, well it definitely feels heavier than the Ithaca, and Wingmaster I've been looking at, but those are well known to be light guns. After my weekend at the range I'll see how the weight feels. Man... these choke tubes are not cheap. Last edited by manther; July 30, 2010 at 05:07 PM.

August 1, 2010, 05:46 PM	#43
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Last post. Went to the range today and tried out the new gun for the first time. Went to Elm fork here in Dallas. http://www.elmfork.com That place was really cool. 460 acres of shooting ranges. People there were helpful and laid back. They set me up on a beginners trap. It was 104 degrees out there today. The gun was great, I shot 4 different brands of ammo out of it, and tried my modified, and improved cylinder chokes. I didn't get to pattern the gun because they were having a competition. I sucked at hitting the clays but got better towards the end when I started jumping on them sooner. I shot at 90 clays. My front arm was getting tired towards the end. Figured out the gun needs to be cleaned and oiled. It didn't want to let go of a spent cartridge once. The guys working there oiled it up a little. Thanks for all the advice and help. Later -

July 29, 2010, 02:28 PM	#26
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Cool, I should not sleep on the BPS. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not but my friend found a BPS upland at at pawnshop, and he described the gun as almost flawless looking (95%). I called them today they have it at $320. Over the phone they offered $300. It has a 28 inch barrel and a screw in full choke. I think I'll drive over there today and take a look at it, and take some pictures. I'd like to know the year too. BigJim do you know the actual differences between the Hunter and the upland. I can tell the stock shape is different. Is that all? Is one heavier etc.?

July 29, 2010, 03:25 PM	#28
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	I kept seeing the words invector or invector plus. glad to know what that means now. Also I'm not convinced this upland really has a 28 inch barrel. The lady on the phone sounded way in over her head, and like she just wanted to get off the phone. I'll know the whole story today when I go look at it. I guess if it really does have a 28inch barrel on it, it may be a nice compromise to the things you like in a hunter and the things good about the upland...?

July 29, 2010, 04:26 PM	#29
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Yes, probably... Check the stamped marks on the barrel - you want a gun that is chambered in 3". I don't remember if some of the older guns / prior to screw in chokes --were chambered in 2 3/4" or 3" chambers -- but a lot of the older guns are only 2 3/4" chambers. There are some older fixed choke guns / where a gunsmith fit them for "screw in chokes" as well. So just check what the barrel says - on every shotgun. Remember the size of a shell is determined after its fired / so the pedals crimped on top are extended. You can fire 2 3/4" or 3" shells in a 3" chamber / but you cannot fire 3" shells in a 2 3/4" chamber...there isn't room for the shell to expand. The problem is / unfired --- a 3" shell will fit into a gun chambered in 2 3/4" because unfired the shell is short enough to go in - but it won't be good if its fired. The BPS / at least in 12ga to my knowledge is not available in 3 1/2" chambers - which some shooters think is necessary for waterfowl. Personally, a gun chambered in 3" is just fine / but you need to know what the gun is stamped. All BPS's I've ever seen - are also stamped on the barrel whether they are Invector or Invector Plus .... or older ones may say Full or Modified ... or have some " * " symbols on them ..../ and the length of the barrel is marked on them as well. So all this should be real easy.... "Field" guns are commonly 3" or some in 3 1/2" chambers ( in last 5 yrs or so). Many "Target grade guns" -- are 2 3/4" ....like the Citoir XS Skeet models ... You have to match your shells to your gun / and "naming" of commercial shells - the term "Magnum" gets tossed around a lot ... and in 12ga ...magnums come in 3" and many of them come in 3 1/2" ....so you have to know your gun / and your shells ...not just by gague / also chamber length. Don't mix up "chamber length" on a shell - with velocity -- that is measure in Dram Equivalent - where you will see 3 Dr Eq on a lot of shells / they might still, and often are, 2 3/4" shells ..... just buy a gun chambered in 3" ....whether its a BPS or something else ---and you'll be fine.

July 29, 2010, 06:38 PM	#30
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Jim I bought the browning... Pictures to come.

July 29, 2010, 07:30 PM	#31
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Well I went to look at the browning and it was so clean, and the guy knocked $20, and threw in a soft case. I just went ahead and bought it. I think owning a newer gun like this one will be a good thing for a beginner like me. It came with a full invector plus choke. Now I can go buy a few more, and really see what I like best. Here's some pictures:

July 29, 2010, 07:34 PM	#32
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21

July 30, 2010, 09:36 AM	#33
Miata Mike Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2010 Location: North East WI Posts: 418	Looks like a nice gun for $300. A few more choke tubes like you say and you are all set to go! Happy shooting!

July 30, 2010, 11:40 AM	#34
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Thanks man, I'm gonna test it out at the range this weekend.

July 30, 2010, 12:34 PM	#35
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Congratulations - looks like you did very well. Invector Plus chokes come in 'flush' or "extended" - and Browning makes them - and so do the big name choke companies like Briley. --------------------------- Briley's Options on chokes...(for Invector Plus) http://www.briley.com/browninginvectorpluschokes.aspx ----------------------- Brownings Options on Invector Plus http://www.browning.com/products/cat...nt=Choke-Tubes I prefer the Midas Grade extended chokes - but the flush ones are fine too. You would be in pretty good shape if you have a Full, a Modified and an Improved Cyclinder ( which is what it would have come with new). Make sure and give us a range report / and take it to the pattern board ( with the full choke) and check the point of impact ( shoot at a dot ) and see if its hitting high or low for you - based on the current angle of the stock, etc. Remember as you move up or back on that comb - the muzzle moves up and down ....so getting it to fit right / and then having a consistent mount is a really bid deal to your sucessful shooting. Have some fun !!

July 30, 2010, 12:58 PM	#36
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Cool, I will report back. Obviously my friend was mistaken this isn't an upland. Is it a hunter? Again thanks for the advice.

July 30, 2010, 01:59 PM	#37
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	It looks to me like its a Hunter model / but I don't remember if my pumps are stamped "Hunter" or not on the barrel or anywhere ... As far as I know - the receivers on the Upland and the Hunter are the same / so it doesn't really matter. I noted the barrel in the photos says its a 3" and Invector Plus .... so it is, what it is / but I would call it a Hunter model. Just a Note: if you find the gun is too light for you .... Go to a Golf Store and pick up a package of "lead tape" -- they sell it in packages to add weight to a driver, etc ... and there is room under the forend / to tape about 8oz .... and then take about 8oz and put it inside the stock / remove the recoil pad. Before you add any weight / check the balance point / and put some masking tape on receiver -- to find the balance point, and mark it .... so after you add weight / you can move the weight fore and aft --- so you don't screw up the balance between your hands. I like about 8oz in front and 8oz in back to increase it to about 8 1/2 lbs ...

July 30, 2010, 05:32 PM	#39
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Choke tubes aren't cheap, but they do last a good while. With TLC and PM, this setup should work for the next hundred years. The Browning pumps I've handled run maybe 6-10 oz heavier than 870s. Good guns, too. Enjoy......

July 30, 2010, 05:57 PM	#40
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Is the whole ported choke thing BS? Or is there a difference but the difference is too subtle for a beginner to notice?

July 30, 2010, 06:48 PM	#41
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Ported chokes are debated ... but I don't think they are worth the extra money for most shooters. I would just stay with standard chokes - made by Browning or Briley for your gun ...and no, they are not cheap ....but the good thing is -- if you add more Brownings to your collection, and they are all Invector Chokes, in the same gague, they will fit more than one gun ( and it won't matter if they are semi-auto, pump or Over Unders ). Chokes are specific to most mfg's guns / they are not interchangeable between guns like Remington, Mossberg, Browning, etc ...

July 31, 2010, 05:04 PM	#42
manther Member Join Date: July 28, 2010 Posts: 21	Grabbed flush-mount Mod, and IC factory Browning chokes. At this place called Rays hardware near downtown Dallas, pretty cool place. The combination of these two chokes cover me for modified in steel or lead, full in steel and IC in lead. Also got a browning choke wrench, and a pair of Peltor shotgunners ear muffs all for $100.

August 2, 2010, 12:52 PM	#45
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	You're right, I mis-spoke .....the .410 win pump was a model 42 .......( my mistake, and I know better ) ... ( I think of them all as model 12's ) / because to me at least they look the same ... sorry ...

August 2, 2010, 01:49 PM	#46
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Learn how to strip the gun down / remove the trigger group, bolt, etc ...and clean and lube it very well. There are a couple of tricks on taking it down and getting it back together - but its really easy to do ....and after you've done it 2 or 3 times you can do it in your sleep in less than 10 min ....( there is a lot of junk that builds up inside the action / if the previous owner didn't strip that down and clean it regularly ). I'd recommend you do it every time you shoot it. Practice your gun mount at home too .....with a new gun / it takes a little time to "groove it". Look at a light switch / close your eyes / mount the gun - then open your eyes again - and you need to be looking at the switch. Do that about 30 times an evening ( with an unloaded gun of course )... It'll pay off big time / in improving your scores ... but pattern that gun too / so you know if you need to modify the comb a little so the gun fits you.