30 Luger DWM?

Rustydog · April 21, 2013, 09:24 PM

I am 100% new to the Forum and am hoping someone can help me with information on a 30 Luger DWM I own. It has the serial number 5818 on both the barrel and receiver. The Swiss Cross has engraved lines radiating out from the + and has P-51 stamped behind and under the slide action. It has a "gold colored" trigger and gold colored push pins holding the safety lever. There are some ""hallmarks" on the barrel. Wood checkered grips also. I am not a collector, but know this is a valuable item. The gun is in 95%-99% condition, beautiful.

I would like to know more about this gun if you have any info. Please feel free to send me any questions which would help you evaluate this gun.

Rustydog (in Portland, OR)

Jim Watson · April 21, 2013, 09:33 PM

Pictures would be a big help.

RickB · April 22, 2013, 12:33 AM

It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics!

Northrider · April 22, 2013, 01:17 AM

Welcome to the forum. I can hardly wait to see the pics of this gun. It sounds intriguing.

Jim Watson · April 22, 2013, 08:43 AM

I think it can be both Swiss and DWM.
Switzerland apparently bought guns from Germany for a good while before tooling up themselves. I see listings at Simpson Ltd for 1900, 1906, and 1920 DWMs with Swiss shield. The 06/1924 was made in Bern, as was the stripped down 1929 with ugly straight frontstrap.

The "gold colored" parts are known as straw parts, the color coming from heat treatment with no finish applied.
The "hallmarks" are proof marks from the maker and maybe the user.
I do not know the significance of the P51.

**Mike Irwin** · April 22, 2013, 08:50 AM

"It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics!"

Uhm... Yes, it can.

The Swiss never intended to manufacture their own Lugers. They were perfectly content to buy all that they needed from Germany.

That arrangement worked for about 14 years, from 1900 to about 1914.

It stopped working when German arms manufacturers had to concentrate on arms for Germany for World War I, in essence cutting the Swiss off from their handgun source.

The Swiss then obtained a manufacturing license from Germany and began producing Lugers at Waffenfabrik Bern, one of the Swiss state arsenals.

RickB · April 22, 2013, 11:07 AM

I wasn't aware that the Swiss had bought Lugers from DWM, prior to tooling-up their own. The Lugers made by Mauser in the '60s and '70s were apparently made on the previously-Swiss tooling.

James K · April 22, 2013, 04:24 PM

A note of caution: there are a number of fakes out there with Swiss markings put on altered military or commercial Lugers.

The P 51 marking indicates that the pistol was sold on the civilian market ("privatized") in that year. The "P" can also be seen ahead of the serial number on pistols sold earlier; it means the same thing.

Jim

444 · April 22, 2013, 06:52 PM

"It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics! "

FWIW: I own a Luger that was given to me (free) (shortly after the owners death). I initally thought I had really scored. However, after getting home and examining it in more detail, I realized that it was a parts gun. The frame is Mauser, the toggle is an American Eagle (I think that is the right term), and it has a six inch navy barrel complete with two rear sights.
The real sad part of the story is yet to come. When this was given to me, I had my choice of one of two Lugers. One was a pristine WWII bringback (captured and brought back by the recently deceased, and it was the first centerfire handgun I had ever fired, when I was a kid) complete with the holster and all the accessories. It was made in 1936 and was in VERY nice condition. However, I already owned a couple standard 4" barreled Lugers although neither was anywhere near the condition of this one. So, it was a tough choice. I chose the one I did because I thought I was getting an Artillery Model. The good one was given to someone else.

Barneveld · April 22, 2013, 07:06 PM

444 that is a disappointing story. I feel your pain. As a C and R enthusiast, finding a treasure can be a daunting task.

Rustydog · April 23, 2013, 07:39 AM

I finally found someone local who was able to evaluate my 30 Luger DWM. It is a Commercial 30 Luger with a backstrap safety made iby the Swiss. It was apparently built in the mid 20th Century. Only a few hundred were made and given the condition, 98%, it was valued at $4000,00.

The only concern I have is the matte finish and "straw" finish on trigger on the gun. I am a bit concerned that this was an addition to the gun which might hurt the value. The appraiser thought it was original, but I just don't know. Any ideas?

Rustydog

jrothWA · April 23, 2013, 08:43 AM

Swiss made P08 were on the market. Priced about 600+, ast a time when surplussed 1911 were about 180 - 250, then the race gun build-up started.

The "gold" is the "straw- colored temper of those various parts, very striking and sign of an lost art.

the .30 Lugar was developed after WWI as the various makers in Weimar Germany were prevented from making military ammo and they necked down the 9mm to .30.

Have a American Rifleman in my library that has it on the cover, will try to locate and scan it to forward via PM.

Enjoy it.

**Mike Irwin** · April 23, 2013, 08:54 AM

"the .30 Lugar was developed after WWI as the various makers in Weimar Germany were prevented from making military ammo and they necked down the 9mm to .30."

No.

Not even close.

The 7.65x21mm Luger cartridge was introduced as the ORIGINAL cartridge for the Luger semi-auto in 1898.

The new handgun and cartridge were offered to the German Army and Navy.

IIRC it was the German Army that liked the gun but wanted a larger cartridge with a heavier bullet. Luger blew the case shoulder out, shortened it by 2mm, and voila, the 9mm Luger was born in 1902.

In 1904 the German Navy adopted the new round and gun, and in 1906 the German Army followed.

And, finally, the Luger in 9mm remained in production during the Weimar years. The Treaty of Versailles allowed a 100,000 man German Army and a small Navy for whom arms and ammunition could be, and were, manufactured domestically.

James K · April 23, 2013, 02:47 PM

FWIW, the spelling is Luger. Just that. Not Lugar, not Lüger, not Leuger, not Looger, not Lugger. It was the name of the man who modified the large and somewhat awkward Borchardt into the handier pistol the Germans called the Parabellum pistol, from the trade name used by DWM. It was called "Luger" in this country after Stoeger became the importer and trade-marked the name.

The term "Pistole 1908" or P.08, was the German Army designation for a 9mm pistol. It does not apply to a .30 Luger or to any Parabellum-type pistol not made for the German Army.

There is an interesting sidelight to the story of the 9mm Parabellum. When the German army expressed a desire for a larger caliber, they specifically mentioned 9mm. Luger, for obvious reasons, wanted to keep the same base as the .30 caliber (7.65 Parabellum) so he first tried using a case with a small shoulder. But that didn't give enough case support, so he decided to support the case on the case mouth. That resulted in a tapered case, something that has not always been beneficial with long columns in a straight magazine, like SMG magazines.

Meantime, Browning started with revolver cartridges and tried to reduce the rim for better feeding, ending up with semi-rimmed cases. But at some point, he saw the 9mm Parabellum case and recognized the advantage of supporting a case on its mouth. He went one better, though, and made his cases straight from that point on, so the .380 and .45 ACP cases are straight and feed much better than the .32 ACP, 9mm Browning Long, and .38 ACP.

Jim

rodfac · April 24, 2013, 08:35 AM

My .30 Luger, a 1920, German made, DWM gun with matching numbers except the magazine, is a great shooter, but a royal PITA to reload. It's that bottle neck case, with the overly short "neck" portion. That short neck makes it difficult to get bullets to hold tightly throughout the feed process. Crimping into a canelure is also problematic due to the thin brass. That said, the gun's easily capable of 1-1/4"gps at 30 yds from a rest.

In the pic below you can see the "straw" coloring on the safety and trigger. That color tends to fade with wear over the years, but not by much. I've had this one since 1990 and have put approximately 1000 rounds through it. With good success with both commercial and hand loaded ammunition. Commercial loads are getting harder and harder to find, so if you don't reload, I'd buy a good supply.

If you need close up pics, reply here and I'll post some in a follow on post.

If you hand load, again, buy all the components you can find. I bought 500 cases from Midway and 1500 93 gr FMJ bullet 15 years ago, figuring that sooner or later I'd need them. Luger cases, eject vertically and are especially easy to lose...mine eject easily 15 feet in the air with factory Winchester Western 93 gr FMJ's.

It's a good pistol with a long history, and the Swiss models that I've seen over years were especially well made...beautiful machining.

HTH's Rod

.30luger · May 6, 2013, 09:47 AM

I recently came across an old German DWM .30 Luger, not 9mm, which i believe was captured during wartime for it was found in a box in the attic of my grandfather. serial number is 6652, all numbers on all pieces of the gun match, a small "m" looking symbol is seen under the barrel and around the trigger. it was made in germany for sure. im curious as to how much it may be worth and where i can go to sell or appraise such an item as it was not with any registration papers or anything. any help?!?!?!

April 21, 2013, 09:24 PM	#1
Rustydog Junior Member Join Date: April 21, 2013 Posts: 5	30 Luger DWM? I am 100% new to the Forum and am hoping someone can help me with information on a 30 Luger DWM I own. It has the serial number 5818 on both the barrel and receiver. The Swiss Cross has engraved lines radiating out from the + and has P-51 stamped behind and under the slide action. It has a "gold colored" trigger and gold colored push pins holding the safety lever. There are some ""hallmarks" on the barrel. Wood checkered grips also. I am not a collector, but know this is a valuable item. The gun is in 95%-99% condition, beautiful. I would like to know more about this gun if you have any info. Please feel free to send me any questions which would help you evaluate this gun. Rustydog (in Portland, OR)

April 22, 2013, 08:50 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics!" Uhm... Yes, it can. The Swiss never intended to manufacture their own Lugers. They were perfectly content to buy all that they needed from Germany. That arrangement worked for about 14 years, from 1900 to about 1914. It stopped working when German arms manufacturers had to concentrate on arms for Germany for World War I, in essence cutting the Swiss off from their handgun source. The Swiss then obtained a manufacturing license from Germany and began producing Lugers at Waffenfabrik Bern, one of the Swiss state arsenals. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 22, 2013, 06:52 PM	#9
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	"It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics! " FWIW: I own a Luger that was given to me (free) (shortly after the owners death). I initally thought I had really scored. However, after getting home and examining it in more detail, I realized that it was a parts gun. The frame is Mauser, the toggle is an American Eagle (I think that is the right term), and it has a six inch navy barrel complete with two rear sights. The real sad part of the story is yet to come. When this was given to me, I had my choice of one of two Lugers. One was a pristine WWII bringback (captured and brought back by the recently deceased, and it was the first centerfire handgun I had ever fired, when I was a kid) complete with the holster and all the accessories. It was made in 1936 and was in VERY nice condition. However, I already owned a couple standard 4" barreled Lugers although neither was anywhere near the condition of this one. So, it was a tough choice. I chose the one I did because I thought I was getting an Artillery Model. The good one was given to someone else. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

April 23, 2013, 07:39 AM	#11
Rustydog Junior Member Join Date: April 21, 2013 Posts: 5	30 Luger UPDATE I finally found someone local who was able to evaluate my 30 Luger DWM. It is a Commercial 30 Luger with a backstrap safety made iby the Swiss. It was apparently built in the mid 20th Century. Only a few hundred were made and given the condition, 98%, it was valued at $4000,00. The only concern I have is the matte finish and "straw" finish on trigger on the gun. I am a bit concerned that this was an addition to the gun which might hurt the value. The appraiser thought it was original, but I just don't know. Any ideas? Rustydog

April 23, 2013, 08:43 AM	#12
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Can confirm that late 70's & early 80's... Swiss made P08 were on the market. Priced about 600+, ast a time when surplussed 1911 were about 180 - 250, then the race gun build-up started. The "gold" is the "straw- colored temper of those various parts, very striking and sign of an lost art. the .30 Lugar was developed after WWI as the various makers in Weimar Germany were prevented from making military ammo and they necked down the 9mm to .30. Have a American Rifleman in my library that has it on the cover, will try to locate and scan it to forward via PM. Enjoy it.

April 21, 2013, 09:33 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	Pictures would be a big help.

April 22, 2013, 12:33 AM	#3
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	It can't be both Swiss and DWM; pics!

April 22, 2013, 01:17 AM	#4
Northrider Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2011 Location: Wasilla, Alaska Posts: 228	Welcome to the forum. I can hardly wait to see the pics of this gun. It sounds intriguing.

April 22, 2013, 08:43 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I think it can be both Swiss and DWM. Switzerland apparently bought guns from Germany for a good while before tooling up themselves. I see listings at Simpson Ltd for 1900, 1906, and 1920 DWMs with Swiss shield. The 06/1924 was made in Bern, as was the stripped down 1929 with ugly straight frontstrap. The "gold colored" parts are known as straw parts, the color coming from heat treatment with no finish applied. The "hallmarks" are proof marks from the maker and maybe the user. I do not know the significance of the P51.

April 22, 2013, 11:07 AM	#7
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I wasn't aware that the Swiss had bought Lugers from DWM, prior to tooling-up their own. The Lugers made by Mauser in the '60s and '70s were apparently made on the previously-Swiss tooling.

April 22, 2013, 04:24 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A note of caution: there are a number of fakes out there with Swiss markings put on altered military or commercial Lugers. The P 51 marking indicates that the pistol was sold on the civilian market ("privatized") in that year. The "P" can also be seen ahead of the serial number on pistols sold earlier; it means the same thing. Jim

April 22, 2013, 07:06 PM	#10
Barneveld Member Join Date: November 5, 2012 Posts: 36	444 that is a disappointing story. I feel your pain. As a C and R enthusiast, finding a treasure can be a daunting task.

April 23, 2013, 08:54 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"the .30 Lugar was developed after WWI as the various makers in Weimar Germany were prevented from making military ammo and they necked down the 9mm to .30." No. Not even close. The 7.65x21mm Luger cartridge was introduced as the ORIGINAL cartridge for the Luger semi-auto in 1898. The new handgun and cartridge were offered to the German Army and Navy. IIRC it was the German Army that liked the gun but wanted a larger cartridge with a heavier bullet. Luger blew the case shoulder out, shortened it by 2mm, and voila, the 9mm Luger was born in 1902. In 1904 the German Navy adopted the new round and gun, and in 1906 the German Army followed. And, finally, the Luger in 9mm remained in production during the Weimar years. The Treaty of Versailles allowed a 100,000 man German Army and a small Navy for whom arms and ammunition could be, and were, manufactured domestically. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 23, 2013, 02:47 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, the spelling is Luger. Just that. Not Lugar, not Lüger, not Leuger, not Looger, not Lugger. It was the name of the man who modified the large and somewhat awkward Borchardt into the handier pistol the Germans called the Parabellum pistol, from the trade name used by DWM. It was called "Luger" in this country after Stoeger became the importer and trade-marked the name. The term "Pistole 1908" or P.08, was the German Army designation for a 9mm pistol. It does not apply to a .30 Luger or to any Parabellum-type pistol not made for the German Army. There is an interesting sidelight to the story of the 9mm Parabellum. When the German army expressed a desire for a larger caliber, they specifically mentioned 9mm. Luger, for obvious reasons, wanted to keep the same base as the .30 caliber (7.65 Parabellum) so he first tried using a case with a small shoulder. But that didn't give enough case support, so he decided to support the case on the case mouth. That resulted in a tapered case, something that has not always been beneficial with long columns in a straight magazine, like SMG magazines. Meantime, Browning started with revolver cartridges and tried to reduce the rim for better feeding, ending up with semi-rimmed cases. But at some point, he saw the 9mm Parabellum case and recognized the advantage of supporting a case on its mouth. He went one better, though, and made his cases straight from that point on, so the .380 and .45 ACP cases are straight and feed much better than the .32 ACP, 9mm Browning Long, and .38 ACP. Jim

April 24, 2013, 08:35 AM	#15
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	My .30 Luger, a 1920, German made, DWM gun with matching numbers except the magazine, is a great shooter, but a royal PITA to reload. It's that bottle neck case, with the overly short "neck" portion. That short neck makes it difficult to get bullets to hold tightly throughout the feed process. Crimping into a canelure is also problematic due to the thin brass. That said, the gun's easily capable of 1-1/4"gps at 30 yds from a rest. In the pic below you can see the "straw" coloring on the safety and trigger. That color tends to fade with wear over the years, but not by much. I've had this one since 1990 and have put approximately 1000 rounds through it. With good success with both commercial and hand loaded ammunition. Commercial loads are getting harder and harder to find, so if you don't reload, I'd buy a good supply. If you need close up pics, reply here and I'll post some in a follow on post. If you hand load, again, buy all the components you can find. I bought 500 cases from Midway and 1500 93 gr FMJ bullet 15 years ago, figuring that sooner or later I'd need them. Luger cases, eject vertically and are especially easy to lose...mine eject easily 15 feet in the air with factory Winchester Western 93 gr FMJ's. It's a good pistol with a long history, and the Swiss models that I've seen over years were especially well made...beautiful machining. HTH's Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

May 6, 2013, 09:47 AM	#16
.30luger Junior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Posts: 8	recently acquired luger I recently came across an old German DWM .30 Luger, not 9mm, which i believe was captured during wartime for it was found in a box in the attic of my grandfather. serial number is 6652, all numbers on all pieces of the gun match, a small "m" looking symbol is seen under the barrel and around the trigger. it was made in germany for sure. im curious as to how much it may be worth and where i can go to sell or appraise such an item as it was not with any registration papers or anything. any help?!?!?!