Whats your home defense plan?

[Creature]

I would suggest that anybody who claims they will have 100% success 100% of the time without even knowing what the situation will be is being somewhat unrealistic in their assessment.

I never claimed that.

I'd call it wishful thinking.

Call it whatever you like.

Personally I think it more than a little questionable to base a plan on shooting it out with an undetermined number of badguys by assuming none of them will shoot back and where each of them will be slain without being able to fight back.

Your plan could come to the same ends if your warnings dont have the affect you are hoping for...so it looks like you would be in the same boat. But now you're back into a corner by your own volition and your position is known by all those BG before any shots are exchanged. I dont consider that a very good position to be in.

[pax]

Deleted an off-topic post -- which was a borderline personal attack -- and a response to that off-topic post.

The Tactics and Training forum on TFL exists for the purpose of discussing the tactics and training that might help people survive criminal encounters. If you want to talk about something else, take it elsewhere 'cause it doesn't belong here. If you want to call people names, do it elsewhere 'cause that just isn't allowed on TFL.

pax

[WayneinMaine]

This is a good topic with lots of differing opinions. I think the best gun/round combination is the one you're most likely to be effective with. If you can't find the safety, aim it quickly, and hit a moving target in the dark, then it's probably not for you. If you are not proficient with your weapon, the odds are very good that it will be taken from you and maybe used against you. People who break into a house they know is occupied are extremely dangerous. 12 guage birdshot has killed lions at a couple of feet (Peter Hathaway Capstick, "Death in the Dark Continent"), but is probably useless at 20 feet for home defense purposes. Buckshot has failed to kill deer at 25 yards pretty often. The best way to win a battle is before it starts. A dog is the most reliable alarm there is, and is the best way to make sure you get to your gun before the BG does. Ultimately, it is best if you don't get into a gunfight at all. Many posters assume they are better armed, better shots, and better tacticians than whomever has broken in, but the fact is you have no idea who an intruder might be. We studied the Dade County shootout where 8 heavily armed, well trained, and prepared FBI agents cornered 2 bank robbery suspects, who turned out to be very well trained. One a former Army Ranger. 2 FBI agents were killed, and all but 1 were wounded. The 2 bad guys died, but when you break even with 8 against 2, it shows nothing is reliable. (this shootout worth reading about if you think you'd like to get into a gunfight in your home with your wife and children present) You don't want to break even, you want a flawless victory. So dont be a target. Take precautions to prevent being chosen as a victim, using lighting, obvious security measures, etc. Mentally examine "firing lanes" in your home, anything big enough to stop a bad guy is big enough to go through interior walls, so don't shoot towards anyone important. Period. Call the police at your earliest opportunity. Find a good defensive position (Established beforehand) and hope like heck you don't have to do what you've hopefully prepared for anyway. Probably the knock on the door is for help, at least in our area. You can call a wrecker/ambulance/police car with the door closed, so there's no need to open it. If I recall correctly, one bad guy in the Dade County shootout was killed by the 12th bullet that hit him. How many hits can you take?

[Creature]

We studied the Dade County shootout where 8 heavily armed, well trained, and prepared FBI agents cornered 2 bank robbery suspects, who turned out to be very well trained. One a former Army Ranger. 2 FBI agents were killed, and all but 1 were wounded. The 2 bad guys died, but when you break even with 8 against 2, it shows nothing is reliable. (this shootout worth reading about if you think you'd like to get into a gunfight in your home with your wife and children present)

The Miami shootout has nearly nothing in common with a "typical" home invasion.

[jmiller676]

I think he was making the point that no matter how trained you think you are there is still a chance your plan could go terribly wrong because you don't know who is on the other end of that gun. He also stated that other security measures need to be taken as in lighting and other security measures which could mean an alarm system, a dog, good deadbolts on your door, a solid piece of wood or a metal rod to block the sliding door. I think he was just trying to point out instead of clearing your house (like the FBI did which in their defense thy had no choice) it may be better to sit tight all bunkered down and be prepared to defend yourself and wait for the cops to arrive. I know it may be hard to let someone ransack your house, because even for me to say this I would want to go clearing my house on my terms, but it could also prove to be safer for you and your family. All I think WayneinMaine is saying is expect the unexpected.

Now if you're a cop or ex-military then by all means grab those duals and go for it

[David Armstrong]

I never claimed that.

It certainly appears that way. You have made the claim, as I understand it, that in your home there isn't going to be a gunfight because you are so good that the bad guy won't be able to exchange gunfire with you, no matter how many of them there are. If you wish to change that claim, or I have misunderstood it, clarification would be appreciated.

Your plan could come to the same ends if your warnings dont have the affect you are hoping for....

Yes, it could. But the difference is that in my plan those ends would be a last resort when everything else had failed rather than a virtually guaranteed start of the process.

But now you're back into a corner by your own volition and your position is known by all those BG before any shots are exchanged. I dont consider that a very good position to be in.

I'm holed up in a strong defensive position that forces the BGs to come to me. They don't know where I am other than someplace in one part of the house or a room. They now have to enter a fatal funnel of my choice, where I have the advantage of cover and concealement. That is a pretty good position, one that is recommended by virtually everyone AFAIK. Perhaps you could indicate where there is a problem with it?

[David Armstrong]

Ultimately, it is best if you don't get into a gunfight at all. Many posters assume they are better armed, better shots, and better tacticians than whomever has broken in, but the fact is you have no idea who an intruder might be.

Excellent point, one that many seem to forget. An important maxim I was taught is to plan that your opponent is at least as capable as you are.

[Creature]

It certainly appears that way. You have made the claim, as I understand it, that in your home there isn't going to be a gunfight because you are so good that the bad guy won't be able to exchange gunfire with you, no matter how many of them there are. If you wish to change that claim, or I have misunderstood it, clarification would be appreciated.

No, I never made any claim. I stated my intentions. Big difference. Specifically, I said:

Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire. I fully intend on engaging first before any hostiles can return fire. And if there is an exchange, I have already made preparations (imagine that) to afford my family a certain and fair amount of protection.

What is a strong defensive position? Hiding behind your closet door? There are very few interior spaces in a modern construction home (which is primarily sheet rock and pine lumber) that offers any real or even partial cover. Perhaps you should peruse the Box O' Truth website. I have seen up close and personal the results of what happens when some one took cover behind something that actually offered only concealment. It wasn't pretty.

But, maybe you're lucky and have stone or concrete construction that offers real cover protection nearby to your bedroom. In my home, there is little to no cover. Only concealment. And even that is limited due to the size of my home. My home is a slab home. There isn't a pebble-sized stone or even a concrete breeze block anywhere in it.

Because I have limited concealment, I will not give away my position by shouting out any warnings. And because I have no cover, I certainly INTEND to enage first.

[Creature]

btw, you may find this thread somewhat interesting....

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=344971

[David Armstrong]

No, I never made any claim. I stated my intentions. Big difference. Specifically, I said...

Actually, THIS is what you said: Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight". A so called "gunfight" implies an exchange of gun fire back and forth. That sure sounds like a claim, not an intention.

What is a strong defensive position?

Depends on a number of things. Where I am, where they are, who else might be in the house, etc. can all come into play for that.

Perhaps you should peruse the Box O' Truth website. I have seen up close and personal the results of what happens when some one took cover behind something that actually offered only concealment. It wasn't pretty.

Thanks for the help, but having been in a few situations myself, and having investigated lots more, I'm quite familiar with what constitutes a strong position.

In my home, there is little to no cover.

That is actually fairly easy to fix, if you would like to do so.

Because I have limited concealment, I will not give away my position by shouting out any warnings. And because I have no cover, I certainly INTEND to enage first.

Too each their own, but personally I would suggest that starting a gunfight before you know if you need to do so, when your family is within 25' of the hostile(s) and without any cover seems to be a recipe for disaster.

[WayneinMaine]

My point was that you don't know the number, skill levels, or intentions of the bad guy/guys. Unless you've been under fire you don't know you either. The dade county shootout illustrates that no outcome is certain, so it is wise to first avoid the problem, but also to stack the odds in you favor as much as possible. (I'm not faulting the FBI, they were doing their jobs. If they brought their wives and kids along for the fun I'd feel differently) What if the bg is wearing body armor? No one here mentioned that. What if the BG's weapon will penetrate your cover? What if there are 3 bgs? What if you draw down on the bg and it's your teenage son? What if you shoot a masked bg you didn't absolutely have to, and it's your son? Your daughter and her boyfriend? Most people are burgled by people they know, and drug addicted family members are a good bet. I respect an individuals right to protect their family and home and am not saying not to use force if necessary. I'm just saying no plan survives intial contact with the enemy. You won't know everything that's happened until days afterword (hopefully), and you don't get to do it over.

[Creature]

Actually, THIS is what you said: Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight". A so called "gunfight" implies an exchange of gun fire back and forth. That sure sounds like a claim, not an intention.

Now you're just nitpicking'...because I qualified that statement in my next post.

Depends on a number of things. Where I am, where they are, who else might be in the house, etc. can all come into play for that.

All things that you likely wont know. Just like what they are armed with and how many of them you are up against. I prefer to keep them off balance by attacking first instead of letting them gather strength and attacking en masse.

That is actually fairly easy to fix, if you would like to do so.

I am all ears, so to speak.

[BuckHammer]

Originally Posted by Creature

I am all ears, so to speak.

Tons of sandbags in your house is an easy solution . Just Kidding.

I'm actually interested to hear what can be added to a home to enhance the cover available. Not concealment, actual cover. I'm probably missing something obvious (besides sandbags ), but right now I can't think of many normal household items that are bulletproof.

I'm actually interested in this, what kind of measures are we talking about?

[justinicus]

right now I can't think of many normal household items that are bulletproof.

I'm actually interested in this, what kind of measures are we talking about?

Abnormal household items?

I've been wondering the same thing, as soon as I read "cover and concealment" in regards to the bedroom. The poster doesn't seem the type who would believe the old myth that a bed provides cover. You could always get one of those "ballistic blankets" I suppose. Or back your bedroom door and walls with 1" armor plate (thought many of us would find that causes as much increased danger from the bedroom's cohabitant as it reduces from the bedroom's invaders).

Thoughts, folks? How can one reasonably harden one's sanctuary? Assuming that pouring concrete and installing a couple tons of steel is beyond our means, any suggestions besides the aforementioned ballistic blanket?

[David Armstrong]

Now you're just nitpicking'...because I qualified that statement in my next post.

Your next post seems to just reinforces the claim. It says, "Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire. I fully intend on engaging first before any hostiles can return fire."

All things that you likely wont know

Actually, I'm quite likely to know where I am, and where other friends/family are. And I would suggest I'm far more likely to be able to figure out how many of them there are if I wait for them to come to me in a predetermined position of my choice where I can staack the advantages my way.

I prefer to keep them off balance by attacking first instead of letting them gather strength and attacking en masse.

I'm still not following how that reduces the chance of a gunfight that puts your family at risk when they have no cover and the BG is within 25' of them.

I am all ears, so to speak.

Some simple, easy, and inexpensive options: A good bookshelf, with a fairly small number of books, will stop virtually any handgun round, many rifle rounds, and all shotgun rounds except slugs. Large planters, filled with dirt, will soak up lots of rounds. Use the plastic/fiberglass types, not the actual clay and ceramic things. A cedar chest (hope chest/foot locker style) packed with blankets will stop a lot, and slow most others down to where they aren't much of a threat. Don't know about the new LCD TVs, but the old models are pretty good, depending on the size. If it is your own house, get rid of those silly hollow-core doors, and get a solid wood/metal sandwiched door.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Can someone tell me in home burglary situations, what percent of burglars continue with a tactically sound and intense attack on an unseen homeowner who has sounded an alarm, called out that he or she was armed and called the police?

The vast percentage of DGUs have reported to be deterrent?

If the BGs continue to engage you after such a warning - perhaps they are ready for you when your PJ clad body comes racking the shotgun down the stairs or around the corner through an easily seen fatal funnel?

As a FOG, I was clearing my 'domicile' in an exercise and an old LEO was yelling at me to get out of the fatal funnel. I had stopped because the training prop went belly up and we had to reset it. But the point was well taken. In a house, there are quite a few fatal funnels. How are you going to move through them by yourself against opposition.

You know, you can buy OC grenades. Get a gas mask or two for the family and lob them down the hall.

[Creature]

Some simple, easy, and inexpensive options: A good bookshelf, with a fairly small number of books, will stop virtually any handgun round, many rifle rounds, and all shotgun rounds except slugs.

Having shot at a number of wet phone books, vehicles and building construction with various caliber hand guns and rifles myself, I seriously doubt that claim. Even with small caliber rounds. The 9mm has an amazing capacity at penetration through building construction and other solid materials. The same goes for .223/5.56 or better. As far as 00buck goes, I have seen buckshot move seemingly stationary objects far enough out of the way for the second and third shots to penetrate further and unhindered...especially at distances of less than 15 feet. A collection of books like one might find in a book case would no doubt be a temporary barrier lasting only moments...unless you own a dozen sets of wet Encyclopedia Britannicas.

Large planters, filled with dirt, will soak up lots of rounds. Use the plastic/fiberglass types, not the actual clay and ceramic things.

Planters? That will offer virtually no cover. Unless you have a wall of them more than just a few feet high and more than one or two deep. That one actually made me laugh out loud. I have seen 9mm penetrate hardened stucco walls a foot thick.

A cedar chest (hope chest/foot locker style) packed with blankets will stop a lot, and slow most others down to where they aren't much of a threat.

It sure needs to be an awfully big chest to offer any kind of cover for my wife and daughter to hide behind. Most chest are no more than a few feet long by a couple of feet high. And what about oblique shots that are not perfectly center mass of the chest?...areas where, because of the angles, there is little to no wood and blankets to offer any kind of resistance?

Don't know about the new LCD TVs, but the old models are pretty good, depending on the size. If it is your own house, get rid of those silly hollow-core doors, and get a solid wood/metal sandwiched door.

Now you're really stretching it. TV's offer NO cover after one or two rounds. I know...I have shot plenty in my life time. Even those big old "console" TV's from the late 1960's and 1970's where easily shot through and through by 22LR.

And solid core wood/metal doors offer next to no protection either. I have installed enough doors and lock sets to know that even metal security doors are sheet metal with foam filling. Solid wood interior doors are no more than two inches thick...easily penetrated by a 9mm. And unless the door is pinned and the door frame is reinforced, solid core doors are just as easy to get open as hollow core doors. Trust me on this.

Everything you have suggested will, at best, only offer partial cover...and for not very long. Far less than you might think.

As a FOG, I was clearing my 'domicile' in an exercise and an old LEO was yelling at me to get out of the fatal funnel. I had stopped because the training prop went belly up and we had to reset it. But the point was well taken. In a house, there are quite a few fatal funnels. How are you going to move through them by yourself against opposition.

I know all about "funnels". And to answer you question, by using my knowledge of my own home to move quickly and quietly. As you already experienced, for a BG, unknown terrain is difficult to navigate against a determined defender who knows every shadow and every creak of the floor boards.

[pax]

Creature ~

Not wet phone books. Dry ones. Try it.

pax

[Creature]

I can see it now...bookshelves full of dry phone books in bedrooms all across America.

[pax]

Creature,

Last summer a group of friends and I shot at a wide collection of "stuff" on the range, and took notes.

In no case did any handgun bullet (calibers ranging from .380 through .45ACP), whether hollowpoint or FMJ, penetrate more than 12 inches through books. Most of them stopped in the middle of the 3rd or beginning of the 4th book, say 5 inches. Of course, we actually hit the books and most bookcases have some airspace. Plan accordingly.

We also found that almost nothing went through a pile of clothing in a dresser drawer. Firing straight down at a folded pile of clothing, nothing left a mark on the bottom of the drawer. Firing through the front of the dresser, nothing went more than a foot in (most dressers are 2 feet deep). Of course, these were full drawers; YMMV.

You don't have to like the message, or the messenger. But if you don't know what you're talking about, listening is always an option. Or getting out there & trying it for yourself.

pax

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Maybe if one lives in the Adams or Munster House, you can silently navigate through the shadows and or creaks.

I find it very hard to imagine that the homeowner on the move is at any advantage against a determined attacker who can take reasonable cover or concealment in the dark in your house.

I know my house well and I would be at a tremendous disadvantage trying to move through it against anyone with a modicum of thought.

The only reason to go to the attackers is if you have to save the loved ones.

The scenario is predicted on dedicated attackers that wouldn't flee from a warning. I think they could take you with a little bit of common sense and concealment.

I've been reading about the street battles in retaking Manila from the Japanese. There is a reason the US forces threw in grenades and satchel charges. Moving into a position where the opponent was hunkered down was usually bad.

[Creature]

You don't have to like the message, or the messenger. But if you don't know what you're talking about, listening is always an option. Or getting out there & trying it for yourself.

That's sounds to me a lot like you're saying I dont know what I am talking about.

Well, you would be wrong there. I have been to various professional training facilities on the east coast where we tested out all sorts of calibers and weapons on various building constructions.

Included in one of the sessions were tests inside a breeze block and lumber/sheet rock construction building where common household objects were placed: dressers, mattresses, a refrigerator and other appliances....and a 5ft tall bookcase full of magazines, newspapers and books. It was as complete a "load out" as we were willing to clean up. This also included various type of calibers and weapons against fully equipped vehicles drained of fluids.

The dressers were no match to either the 223 or the 9mm...but then again, we didnt cram them full of clothing. But based on my observations, I would be wearing a new set of socks and underwear everyday for a year to make a difference. As for the book cases full of books, the books in the spot that we specifically aimed multiple shots at didnt last more than a few rounds before they became so disturbed that a few more shots was all it took to penetrate through and through and the wall behind it.

Oh, and BTW, I was paid to attend this training.

[pax]

As for the book cases full of books, the books in the spot that we specifically aimed multiple shots at ...

Creature ~

Okay.

Now slow it down a little bit. How many shots into exactly the same aimpoint would it take to defeat a "bullet proof" vest?

And did your tests show that someone behind a full bookcase might be just a tiny, itsy-bitsy bit, safer than someone behind a bare sheetrock wall?

What I'm getting at is that there's no cover in the world that doesn't degrade when bullets start flying, or that will stand up to multiple repeated hits in the exact same spot. And that someone who has set up a place in their home with a bookcase or a fully loaded dresser is going to be miles safer than someone who relies on flimsy sheetrock alone.

pax

[Glenn E. Meyer]

After discussion, we think that we have expressed our points of view with vim and vigour. Continued discussion really isn't adding anything at this point.

Thank you for contributions.

Glenn