Crazy Paper Tears???

GaryC4 · February 7, 2016, 04:41 PM

So I've been making the same 40 S&W loads for a couple of years now and never had an issue with them - Until today. I recently picked up an M&P 40c and hit the range with it for the first time. For some reason quite a few shots are putting oblong tears in the paper, almost like the bullets are tumbling. Anybody have any ideas as to what might be causing this?

GUN:
S&W M&P 40c, 3-1/2" barrel

LOAD:
Brass - Various
Primers - CCI #500 Small Pistol
Bullets - Rainier 165 g FP
Powder - Bullseye, 5.1 g

Average velocity w/ a full size M&P 40 - 1,001 fps

Any thoughts or advice?

condor bravo · February 7, 2016, 05:56 PM

The bullets obviously not stabilizing for the 3.5" M&P. Perhaps not achieving sufficient velocity for the shorter barrel or maybe an over-sized barrel and the bullet not sufficiently engaging the rifling. Try a lighter bullet and see what happens or increase the charge with the current bullet if the charge is still within loading range.

FrankenMauser · February 7, 2016, 06:12 PM

Most of those tears look like the byproduct of the paper itself, combined with the lack of a good backer.
The major hint that it isn't 'unstable' bullets, for me, is that some of the tears extend through the bullet impact in opposite directions.

Use a good cardboard backer, with the target affixed at least at the corners, and try again before assuming the load is problematic.
The cardboard backer will also help identify 'wobbling' bullets, if that really is the case.

us920669 · February 7, 2016, 06:13 PM

The way the target is hanging can matter, whether there is anything backing it up. If there's just air behind it the bullet pushes it a bit instead of punching through cleanly.

wizrd · February 7, 2016, 06:19 PM

What those last two guys said -- I've experienced this, they're right.

GaryC4 · February 7, 2016, 06:21 PM

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I think before I change anything with the loads I'll take the gun to another range that had cardboard backing to confirm (although I shot the center portion of this same target with a 38 Special that seemed to punch round holes)?

condor bravo · February 7, 2016, 06:31 PM

The two above posts could identify the problem also. Was the same target setup without a backer used with the other M&P?

GaryC4 · February 7, 2016, 06:34 PM

Yea, I've shot the other pistol at this range without a backer and don't recall tears like this- but since eliminating the backer as a problem is the easiest solution I'll try this first.

rclark · February 7, 2016, 06:43 PM

Did you check to see if your barrel has rifling? I've heard of 'smooth' bores getting through once in great while. Just a thought....

GaryC4 · February 7, 2016, 07:59 PM

Good thought. I checked, and the barrel looks good though.

chris in va · February 7, 2016, 09:40 PM

I had really bad keyholes when I started reloading, using .356" TC (lead). They were undersized and over driven. I switched to a .358" and everything cleared up.

It's possible your bullets are undersized if you still have the issue using cardboard.

Mobuck · February 7, 2016, 11:01 PM

Damp target paper and poor target backers can cause some strange looking bullet holes.

February 7, 2016, 05:56 PM	#2
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	The bullets obviously not stabilizing for the 3.5" M&P. Perhaps not achieving sufficient velocity for the shorter barrel or maybe an over-sized barrel and the bullet not sufficiently engaging the rifling. Try a lighter bullet and see what happens or increase the charge with the current bullet if the charge is still within loading range. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 7, 2016, 06:12 PM	#3
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Most of those tears look like the byproduct of the paper itself, combined with the lack of a good backer. The major hint that it isn't 'unstable' bullets, for me, is that some of the tears extend through the bullet impact in opposite directions. Use a good cardboard backer, with the target affixed at least at the corners, and try again before assuming the load is problematic. The cardboard backer will also help identify 'wobbling' bullets, if that really is the case. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 7, 2016, 06:31 PM	#7
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	The two above posts could identify the problem also. Was the same target setup without a backer used with the other M&P? __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 7, 2016, 06:43 PM	#9
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,619	Did you check to see if your barrel has rifling? I've heard of 'smooth' bores getting through once in great while. Just a thought.... __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king.

February 7, 2016, 06:13 PM	#4
us920669 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2016 Posts: 181	The way the target is hanging can matter, whether there is anything backing it up. If there's just air behind it the bullet pushes it a bit instead of punching through cleanly.

February 7, 2016, 06:19 PM	#5
wizrd Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2012 Posts: 232	What those last two guys said -- I've experienced this, they're right. __________________ Sumo magis ammo

February 7, 2016, 06:21 PM	#6
GaryC4 Member Join Date: May 5, 2015 Posts: 16	Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I think before I change anything with the loads I'll take the gun to another range that had cardboard backing to confirm (although I shot the center portion of this same target with a 38 Special that seemed to punch round holes)?

February 7, 2016, 06:34 PM	#8
GaryC4 Member Join Date: May 5, 2015 Posts: 16	Yea, I've shot the other pistol at this range without a backer and don't recall tears like this- but since eliminating the backer as a problem is the easiest solution I'll try this first.

February 7, 2016, 07:59 PM	#10
GaryC4 Member Join Date: May 5, 2015 Posts: 16	Good thought. I checked, and the barrel looks good though.

February 7, 2016, 09:40 PM	#11
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I had really bad keyholes when I started reloading, using .356" TC (lead). They were undersized and over driven. I switched to a .358" and everything cleared up. It's possible your bullets are undersized if you still have the issue using cardboard.

February 7, 2016, 11:01 PM	#12
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Damp target paper and poor target backers can cause some strange looking bullet holes.