.410 - game how large w/ buckshot?

mbrevolver · September 19, 2006, 04:16 PM

Have heard that velocity of .410 same as other gauges, just reduced pellets. If that's true, would 410 w/ 00 buck be effective on feral dogs, or even for home defense?

springmom · September 19, 2006, 04:23 PM

A .410 buckshot shell of 3" will have five pellets in it. A 20 gauge will have 18. The .410 goes at about 1140 fps, the 20 gauge at 1200. This data is from www.cheaperthandirt.com, which is a quick place to do some comparing. Five pellets isn't much.... Didn't check 12 gauge but I think we can assume it's got a lot more oomph than a 20.

Springmom

mbrevolver · September 19, 2006, 04:52 PM

12 gauge seems to typically run 12/1250 - delta of less than 100 fsp doesn't seem significant (1140 v. 1240).
Shot pellets less (sigificantly) in .410, but doesn't that still give somebody the same as 5 x 9mm per shotshell - an improvement over many/most handguns?

banditt007 · September 19, 2006, 09:34 PM

i'd say it would be good for both situations. Better than a handgun IMO, but if you are going to shoulder a rifle/shotgun might as well make it a 20 gauge.

.410 i feel would put both human and dog down NP

gordo b. · September 20, 2006, 10:18 AM

Wish I could find 20ga shells loaded with 00 buck! As they are loaded with the MUCH smaller #3 or #2 buck , they don't hold 18 .32" balls! 12 Gauge magnums only hold up to 15 , (thats 3x the payload) at about the same velocity BUT the most common and very effective 12ga load holds 9 00 buck which is not even twice as much as the 5 00 buck .410 load. Up to 20 yards the .410 00 buck load , carefully aimed is pretty darned decisive on creatures below 150 pounds IMHO!

springmom · September 20, 2006, 11:06 AM

Is there a problem with California shipping it from internet vendors? If not, you could try www.cheaperthandirt.com You have to pay shipping, but it wouldn't be that much on a little box of .20 ga shells.

HTH

Springmom

GLK · September 24, 2006, 05:07 PM

If you do your part, yes. It will kill both two and four legged dogs just fine.

Doggieman · September 25, 2006, 12:03 AM

who wants to kill doggies???

.351winchester · September 29, 2006, 12:45 PM

I would guess he meant coyotes, to protcet pets/and or livestock

.410 is good enough for a manstopper, certainly better than an oridinary pistol. But I agree that 20 would be a better choice. From what I've read for combat/defense use, 20 is just as good as a 12 with a fraction of the recoil, which makes for better control and faster cycling. Of course the myriad of Rambo accessories is usually limited to the major 12 gauge models. I would like to see a Wilson/SGT model in 20.
Remember there were a couple 410's made specifically for home defense: The Mossberg 500 HD with vertical foregrip and shot spreader choke barrel extension, and the Cobray Ladies Home Companion (AKA Mini Street Sweeper) 12 shot revolving drum .410/.45LC (rifled Barrel, it was also offered in .45/70) pistol. Then there are the Stoeger .410 Coachguns and that little FMJ folding SxS. Not to mention all the derringers and a few SA and DA revolvers available. All intended for self defense. I think it would be wise however to stick to 00 and slugs if that is your intent.

I seem to recall a belt fed, hand held full auto .410 being developed for intended use with non-lethal loads in riot control applications. But it was a .410 machine gun.

A .410 Saiga in AKSU-74 Krinkov configuration and dimensions with a high capacity mag or even drum might make a great CQB and entry tool...20 ga. of same description would be even better, a lot better than that Mag-7 monstrosity.

KD5NRH · September 29, 2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

12 Gauge magnums only hold up to 15

Look at the last item. 3.5" Magnum with 18 pellets of 00.

I have a couple boxes of these, and as long as you're not trying to rapid fire them, recoil isn't all that bad from my Mossberg 835. Downrange, it tends to make a mess.

armedandsafe · September 29, 2006, 09:42 PM

I have always wondered at the claim that the 20GA has less recoil than the 12GA. I haven't done the research, because I haven't wondered that much.

Let's start with some assumptions:
the 12GA delivers a 1 ounce payload
the 20GA delivers a 1 ounce payload

the 12GA delivers a nominal 1250fps
the 20GA delivers a nominal 1250fps

the 12GA weighs 8Lbs
the 20GA weighs 8Lbs

the 12GA fits YOU
the 20GA fits YOU

recoil is a mass/acceleration formula

Can somebody straighten me out on why the 20 recoils less than the 12? (Since I shoot 16s, this is pure curiosity on my part.)

Pops

pitz96 · October 2, 2006, 11:55 AM

"Can somebody straighten me out on why the 20 recoils less than the 12? "

***I'd like to know too! Shotguns are something I know little about, but I am considering buying a cheap one as a starter that could also be some use for home defense. Being fairly small, I'm not keen on absorbing alot of recoil to the shoulder, so was thinking about a .410 like the NEF Survivor. Not ideal, I know, but I'm leery of handling a 12 ga.

john in jax · October 2, 2006, 02:18 PM

Less recoil is simple physics, The 00 buckshot muzzle velocity of each, .410, 20ga, and 12ga is relatively the same, but as you increase gauge you increase the combined weight of the shot/pellets. It goes something like "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". It takes a lot more power, a lot bigger BANG to move the 15 00buckshot pellets out of a 12ga 3" shell at +/-1100fps than it does to move the 3 00buckshot pellets out of a .410.

For a simple, non-gun demonstration get some golf balls and zip-lock bags. Fill one zip-lock with 3 golf balls to represent the .410, one with 9 balls for the 20ga and one with 15 to represent a 12ga 3" mag. Now try throwing the bags at a target - - golf balls or buckshot, it is all relative and all kind of variables can affect felt recoil, but the 12ga kicks harder, because it takes roughly 5 times the power/force to move 5 times the weight of the 3 00buckshot the .410 is pushing, at a similar velocity.

For hunting large game have you thought about using slugs?

Al Thompson · October 3, 2006, 08:54 AM

Out of my NEF .410, the 00 buck loads patterned horribly. At 10 yards it was an 18 inch vertical string. I suspect the full choke was the culprit. If I needed the conbo (.410/00 buck), I'd have an inch of barrel cut off to get rid of the choke.

Jeff Mulliken · October 3, 2006, 04:23 PM

In the case above the 20 ga does not have less recoil. Assuming a fixed breech gun, if the weight of the ejecta and the velocity are the same the recoil is the same. If the 20 ga gun weighs less, it will feel like it has more recoil.

The reason 20's tend to be viewed as kicking less is because the standard 20 load is 1 oz and the standard 12 ga load is 1 1/8 oz. The increase in the weight of the ejecta has a huge impact on the perceived recoil.

Jeff

September 19, 2006, 04:16 PM	#1
mbrevolver Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Posts: 37	.410 - game how large w/ buckshot? Have heard that velocity of .410 same as other gauges, just reduced pellets. If that's true, would 410 w/ 00 buck be effective on feral dogs, or even for home defense?

September 20, 2006, 11:06 AM	#6
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	Is there a problem with California shipping it from internet vendors? If not, you could try www.cheaperthandirt.com You have to pay shipping, but it wouldn't be that much on a little box of .20 ga shells. HTH Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

September 29, 2006, 09:42 PM	#11
armedandsafe Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 1,001	I have always wondered at the claim that the 20GA has less recoil than the 12GA. I haven't done the research, because I haven't wondered that much. Let's start with some assumptions: the 12GA delivers a 1 ounce payload the 20GA delivers a 1 ounce payload the 12GA delivers a nominal 1250fps the 20GA delivers a nominal 1250fps the 12GA weighs 8Lbs the 20GA weighs 8Lbs the 12GA fits YOU the 20GA fits YOU recoil is a mass/acceleration formula Can somebody straighten me out on why the 20 recoils less than the 12? (Since I shoot 16s, this is pure curiosity on my part.) Pops __________________ Armed and Safe: Not just a theory If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up. Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."

October 2, 2006, 02:18 PM	#13
john in jax Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2005 Posts: 1,177	less recoil . . . Less recoil is simple physics, The 00 buckshot muzzle velocity of each, .410, 20ga, and 12ga is relatively the same, but as you increase gauge you increase the combined weight of the shot/pellets. It goes something like "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". It takes a lot more power, a lot bigger BANG to move the 15 00buckshot pellets out of a 12ga 3" shell at +/-1100fps than it does to move the 3 00buckshot pellets out of a .410. For a simple, non-gun demonstration get some golf balls and zip-lock bags. Fill one zip-lock with 3 golf balls to represent the .410, one with 9 balls for the 20ga and one with 15 to represent a 12ga 3" mag. Now try throwing the bags at a target - - golf balls or buckshot, it is all relative and all kind of variables can affect felt recoil, but the 12ga kicks harder, because it takes roughly 5 times the power/force to move 5 times the weight of the 3 00buckshot the .410 is pushing, at a similar velocity. For hunting large game have you thought about using slugs? __________________ America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe

October 3, 2006, 08:54 AM	#14
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Out of my NEF .410, the 00 buck loads patterned horribly. At 10 yards it was an 18 inch vertical string. I suspect the full choke was the culprit. If I needed the conbo (.410/00 buck), I'd have an inch of barrel cut off to get rid of the choke. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

September 19, 2006, 04:23 PM	#2
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	A .410 buckshot shell of 3" will have five pellets in it. A 20 gauge will have 18. The .410 goes at about 1140 fps, the 20 gauge at 1200. This data is from www.cheaperthandirt.com, which is a quick place to do some comparing. Five pellets isn't much.... Didn't check 12 gauge but I think we can assume it's got a lot more oomph than a 20. Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

September 19, 2006, 04:52 PM	#3
mbrevolver Member Join Date: May 22, 2006 Posts: 37	actually not much 12 gauge seems to typically run 12/1250 - delta of less than 100 fsp doesn't seem significant (1140 v. 1240). Shot pellets less (sigificantly) in .410, but doesn't that still give somebody the same as 5 x 9mm per shotshell - an improvement over many/most handguns?

September 19, 2006, 09:34 PM	#4
banditt007 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2006 Posts: 694	i'd say it would be good for both situations. Better than a handgun IMO, but if you are going to shoulder a rifle/shotgun might as well make it a 20 gauge. .410 i feel would put both human and dog down NP

September 20, 2006, 10:18 AM	#5
gordo b. Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2002 Location: Peoples republik of Calif. Posts: 961	Wish I could find 20ga shells loaded with 00 buck! As they are loaded with the MUCH smaller #3 or #2 buck , they don't hold 18 .32" balls! 12 Gauge magnums only hold up to 15 , (thats 3x the payload) at about the same velocity BUT the most common and very effective 12ga load holds 9 00 buck which is not even twice as much as the 5 00 buck .410 load. Up to 20 yards the .410 00 buck load , carefully aimed is pretty darned decisive on creatures below 150 pounds IMHO!

September 24, 2006, 05:07 PM	#7
GLK Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2000 Location: Brandon FL USA Posts: 527	If you do your part, yes. It will kill both two and four legged dogs just fine.

September 25, 2006, 12:03 AM	#8
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	who wants to kill doggies???

September 29, 2006, 12:45 PM	#9
.351winchester Junior member Join Date: December 31, 2005 Location: MI Posts: 1,013	I would guess he meant coyotes, to protcet pets/and or livestock .410 is good enough for a manstopper, certainly better than an oridinary pistol. But I agree that 20 would be a better choice. From what I've read for combat/defense use, 20 is just as good as a 12 with a fraction of the recoil, which makes for better control and faster cycling. Of course the myriad of Rambo accessories is usually limited to the major 12 gauge models. I would like to see a Wilson/SGT model in 20. Remember there were a couple 410's made specifically for home defense: The Mossberg 500 HD with vertical foregrip and shot spreader choke barrel extension, and the Cobray Ladies Home Companion (AKA Mini Street Sweeper) 12 shot revolving drum .410/.45LC (rifled Barrel, it was also offered in .45/70) pistol. Then there are the Stoeger .410 Coachguns and that little FMJ folding SxS. Not to mention all the derringers and a few SA and DA revolvers available. All intended for self defense. I think it would be wise however to stick to 00 and slugs if that is your intent. I seem to recall a belt fed, hand held full auto .410 being developed for intended use with non-lethal loads in riot control applications. But it was a .410 machine gun. A .410 Saiga in AKSU-74 Krinkov configuration and dimensions with a high capacity mag or even drum might make a great CQB and entry tool...20 ga. of same description would be even better, a lot better than that Mag-7 monstrosity.

October 2, 2006, 11:55 AM	#12
pitz96 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2006 Posts: 218	"Can somebody straighten me out on why the 20 recoils less than the 12? " ***I'd like to know too! Shotguns are something I know little about, but I am considering buying a cheap one as a starter that could also be some use for home defense. Being fairly small, I'm not keen on absorbing alot of recoil to the shoulder, so was thinking about a .410 like the NEF Survivor. Not ideal, I know, but I'm leery of handling a 12 ga.

October 3, 2006, 04:23 PM	#15
Jeff Mulliken Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 250	In the case above the 20 ga does not have less recoil. Assuming a fixed breech gun, if the weight of the ejecta and the velocity are the same the recoil is the same. If the 20 ga gun weighs less, it will feel like it has more recoil. The reason 20's tend to be viewed as kicking less is because the standard 20 load is 1 oz and the standard 12 ga load is 1 1/8 oz. The increase in the weight of the ejecta has a huge impact on the perceived recoil. Jeff