.45 Win Mag?

[Bongo Boy]

I've revisited and revisited this cartridge on paper and find it one of those sad stories in a way. For those who prefer auto pistols, big bore and who enjoy shooting bigger handguns than they have any practical need for, the 45 WM seems like the answer. It's a bona fide auto pistol round, matches 44 Mag specs perfectly, is shorter and as mentioned, uses 45 Auto dies with a plentiful supply of bullet choices, has been commercially manufactured and blessed with a SAAMI recommendation, and new brass is readily available at a fairly reasonable price (about 1/5th the cost of 50AE brass, last I checked).

Of course, one can sing its praises all day long and it will likely never be found on store shelves or in anyone's vocabulary. It just makes no sense to put 44 Mag in a Desert Eagle to me when a shorter and fully equivalent rimless cartridge could be resurrected and nurtured along. Anyway...

I've never seen a 45 WM cartridge let alone fired one, but it seems to me folks shoot 44 Mag in revolvers that are not all that much heavier, if heavier at all, without complaint. I have to think use of terms such as 'fierce recoil' have to come from shooters sharing a breadth of experience with those who find 10mm Auto to have severe recoil--I think it may be simply picking up a Grizzly without extensive experience firing big handguns. I really think 10mm may have suffered from widespread 'confirmed nonsense'...comments from seemingly authoritative sources that really don't wash in reality.

What I'd like to see is an auto pistol purpose-built for the 45 WM...not built to also convert to a revolver cartridge an inch longer or a cartridge most of us couldn't afford to buy the brass for, let alone buy factory ammo for (e.g., 50AE). Such a firearm should not be outrageously heavy nor have a grip so big as to be uncomfortable, but should have heft and size comparable to say an N-frame 44.

Just as shooters deserve to enjoy the features and benefits of the 10mm and just as a seemingly growing number are, so too do they deserve a 'real' 45 cal auto pistol that's not a cobbled up round shoe-horned into a 45 Auto case. Nor should they have to suffer the humiliation of stuffing a revolver cartridge into an auto loader--no matter how fantastic that rimmed anachronism may be.

[Sevens]

It just makes no sense to put 44 Mag in a Desert Eagle to me when a shorter and fully equivalent rimless cartridge could be resurrected and nurtured along.

It makes a heap of sense to do exactly as quoted simply because just about anyone can go out and find a box of .44 Mag ammo and that is the big rub against ANY/ALL oddball cartridges. The really oddball (9x23) or the historically oddball (.45 WinMag) or the commercially CURRENTLY available but still "oddball" (.327 Federal Mag, .22 TCM) or the wild and crazy "Jeez, I never even HEARD of that" kind of oddball (10mm Magnum, 9mm Win Mag, .357 B&D) etc etc etc.

The Desert Eagle is a wild success story because of TV, movies and also because people can actually go out and find ammo for it.

I also like odd stuff and I would play with .45 Win Mag if all the pieces fell in to play. but your last line:

so too do they deserve a 'real' 45 cal auto pistol that's not a cobbled up round shoe-horned into a 45 Auto case.

...makes it sound like you are taking a direct jab at .460 Rowland.

Maybe? I am not sure if that is what you meant.
In any case, the .460 Rowland is a pretty cool customer and allows you to shoot .45 Win Mag kind of performance in a gun with a normal 1911 frame. It feels fantastic in the hand and it prints some serious velocity in a totally controllable and royally fun shooting handgun.

And IMO, it's a zillion times better than a cartoonish Desert Eagle. And while the LAR Grizzly is neat, it is NOT around, won't be found cheap and god help you if you break something and need parts. And .460 Rowland in a 1911 fits your hand like a 1911, not like an LAR Grizzly.

[Bongo Boy]

All very good points--can't argue with ammo availability; often I make the mistake of equating component availability to ammo availability, ignoring the important fact that by far most shooters don't handload (at least I assume that's fairly accurate, if not a 'fact').

Also agreed on 'cartoonish', yes--seems to me that, at least for .357 and .44, the DE has about 2 lbs of excess mass.

Probably the most important point of yours--the LAR is not available, nor are parts for it (important parts, at least). So, one can dream all daylong about the wonder of it all, it isn't real.

[44 AMP]

So, one can dream all daylong about the wonder of it all, it isn't real.

It's real. What is isn't is in current production. And a large part of that is people seeing one and responding "too big! too heavy! too expensive! Not practical! etc.

Yes, the .45 Win Mag is a lot shorter than the .44 Mag
Less than 0.1". Case length .45 Win Mag, 1.198", .44 mag, 1.285"

Less than the difference in length between a .44 Mag and a .44 Special or the difference between a .357 and a .38 Special.

I've never seen a 45 WM cartridge let alone fired one, but it seems to me folks shoot 44 Mag in revolvers that are not all that much heavier, if heavier at all, without complaint.

Maybe you just aren't hearing the complaints? Have you shot full house .44 Mag though a S&W Model 29 with the factory wood grips? It is NOT comfortable. And done less than perfectly it hurts! That's one of the reasons aftermarket grips, and bigger, heavier pistols are popular. They lessen the felt recoil. If you want a real eye-opener, I'll let you shoot my .44Mag Contender! 10", unported, one of those old beautiful thin pencil shaped barrels. Not responsible if the gun hits you in the head!!

Here's one that fires a round longer than the .44 Mag

but not a lot, 1.298" case length vs 1.285"

And its a "bona fide" auto pistol cartridge (rimless). The .44 Auto Mag Pistol.


here's a size comparison with a Model 29-2


And with a .44 Mag Desert Eagle

I will agree the DE has more mass than it absolutely needs. On the other hand, they seldom break...

My issue with the DE is the specific way they executed the design, more than the weight. Look at the grips in the picture. The .44AMP is a slightly longer case, and yet the grip of the Desert Eagle is larger. Its not the length of the round that matters most, its the package you put it in!


And here's a .45 Win Mag Wildey for comparison. Again, not the length of the round, but the package its in..

[Bongo Boy]

Very handsome collection and great side-by-sides. What I often thought was outrageous bore axis height of the Wildey and AutoMags doesn't appear all that much different than the DE--at least to my old eyes. It seems the slide and 'dust cover' portion of the DE frame may make the bore axis look lower than it is. But then, quick recovery to target for follow up may not be the biggest concern with these pistols, eh?

Yes, I've definitely read the 'too heavy, too big' comments everywhere, and at least in the context of the DE, the 'impractical' comments as well. I certainly can't argue with impractical, but there are so many handguns that fit that category that many shooters enjoy, the point is somewhat lost. The biggest, the loudest and the coolest-looking will always be attractors for many folks--and bless them, I guess, because I think this short-lived attraction may be what enables us to find so many wonderfully un-used used firearms for sale.

In any case, 1,000 ct order of 45 Win Mag brass is on its way to my house, and a very handsome Mark I should be here shortly as well. Looks like I've really stepped in it this time!

[44 AMP]

Thank you, Bongo. Only took me a bit over 30 years to acquire them all.

a case of brass, and a Mk I Grizz in .45 Win Mag? droolsss...

ok, tip, get spare mags, if you can find them. I've been looking a while, with no luck. I have a spare, but it misbehaves. Good Luck.

But then, quick recovery to target for follow up may not be the biggest concern with these pistols, eh?

Not the biggest concern, no.

Although, despite what bore height it has, the DE does have a remarkably fast recovery time. That big, heavy lump of steel right at the muzzle does have a significant effect. This balance, combined with the overall weight of the gun (4.25lbs, empty) makes the Desert Eagle mild recoiling compared to revolvers shooting the same rounds.

And a .357 Mag Desert Eagle is a very stable platform in rapid fire. My personal best, at a bowling pin shoot (ages ago) 4.37 seconds to clear the table, used all 9 rounds. (one pin fell end on and it took a few shots to nail it)
Didn't even place 3rd, against the .45acp pin gun shooters, but then, I wasn't a pin gun shooter, just playing.

Not a fast platform to maneuver, but once locked on, it ran pretty well.

[TimSr]

At the height of my yearning for an LAR Grizzly, I watched a movie called Shakedown, and Sam Elliott made me want one all the more. I'd still love to have one, but I could never justify the price for what would amount to me as novelty.

I was trying to remember that movie! I think that was the problem with the cartridge catching on. the movie wasn't very memorable or popular, so neither was the cartridge. History would probably have been changed if they had placed it one of the Dirty Harry movies.

[Bongo Boy]

Never heard of Shakedown but I've got it queued up to watch.

ok, tip, get spare mags, if you can find them.

There's a number of them 'available' on gunbroker--nominally $150 a pop. I'm not sure I call that available, but that's probably less humiliating than the laughter you'd get asking the fellas at the local shop to custom build a couple of them.

After getting that "Congratulations! You've won!!!" that, all too often, generates as much nausea as it done a warm inner glow, I naturally told myself repeatedly it was the right thing to do. I'll keep telling myself that for some time until I know in my heart it's true--I expect that will be shortly after lighting up the first round.

[Chuck Dye]

I thoroughly enjoyed my one range session with the LAR Grizzly in .45 Win Mag, though it is not for the small of paw. The potential for the companion M1 carbine in .45 Win Mag sounds like fun, too, if you have the loot and reloading gear.

The alternatives that intrigue me most, that apparently never went into production, are the 10mm Magnum versions of both.

[rightside]

They did place it in a Dirty Harry movie. Young as I was at the time , all I could do was drool...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHYzOzuENE

[44 AMP]

While I enjoyed the linked video(s) the presenters made a couple small technical errors in their descriptions,.

And you have your magnums mixed up. The gun in Sudden Impact was absolutey a .44 Auto Mag (the guns (2, one blank firing only) were made for the movie from parts, by Harry Sanford, who was the driving force behind the original Auto Mag production.

The gun in Shakedown, and the one Bongo is currently waiting on is not the .44 Auto Mag, its is the .45 Win Mag LAR Grizzly. There is a pic of mine on page 1 of this thread.

That gun is my second Grizzly, I had a blued one in .44 Magnum (yes, the standard revolver round), but I traded it (and some cash) for the one I have now in .45 Win Mag. The finish is some special hard chrome (I think) that I can no longer remember the name of, but was told it added several hundred dollars to the value (or at least the asking price!) of the gun.

[Bongo Boy]

My issue with the DE is the specific way they executed the design, more than the weight. Look at the grips in the picture. The .44AMP is a slightly longer case, and yet the grip of the Desert Eagle is larger. Its not the length of the round that matters most, its the package you put it in!

I thought this was because they wanted a single frame design that would also accommodate 50AE--and if that's the case of course it makes sense. I haven't taken measurements or compared side-by-side, but it seems the situation is even worse with the Grizzly--in terms of front-to-back length of that grip. While it also looks like the factory wrap-around rubber grip is to blame for some of that, it still looks to my eye like an outrageous reach there even to accommodate a 45 WM.

Back to case length though--I was actually surprised a bit about the length of the 45 WM compared to 44 Rem Mag. Not sure what numbers I was imagining in my head, but I didn't get it right that's for sure. I've been loading 44 recently with Keith 240s and that makes for a long round--maybe my imagination was a bit influenced by COAL of that particular load.

As for loading the 45 Win Mag when the brass shows up, I remembered I have a Lee 90349 mold (255 gr RNFP intended for 45 Colt). I used to size these and run 'em in 45 Auto over some absurd little charge like 3.3gr Clays for ultra fun, recoil-free entertainment (and IDPA).

I'm thinking these will run just fine in 45 WM if I don't try to push them at Mach 2 and run them over 4227. We'll see.

[11mm]

It seems to me that the problem with the .45 Win mag has is that it was never the most powerful autoloader cartridge and at its peak it didn't get any major starring roles in anything. The Automag, while never enjoying desert eagle ubiquity, was the overkill hyper macho side arm of its day, roughly equivalent to the 44 Amp and surpassed by the Wildey magnums and the 50AE the .45WM was never the biggest thing you could buy, in the public conciousness and widely available simultaneously.

[Mike Irwin]

The original role envisioned for the .45 Auto Mag (as well as the 9mm Magnum, anyone remember that one? Came out around the same time.), was primarily for hunting and for the then-growing game of metallic silhouette shooting.

It never really caught on anywhere.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

No love for the newer Automags ???

because they were 2, 3, 4, & 5, when I chose my "4" I picked the 10 mm Magnum caliber ( a true 40 caliber ) instead of the 45 Win Mag version ( which of course would have been a "4.5" )... in fact, I didn't add a "2" until later, as it wasn't a true 20 caliber

Automag 2 in 22 Magnum
Automag 3 in 30 Carbine
Automag 4 in 10 mm Magnum
Automag 5 in 50 A.E.

I've heard quality was spotty, however all of mine get shot, & all function perfectly

scopes & mounts have since been removed, but I opted to keep the slide pull knobs on the centerfire versions as the springs are quite robust...

[Bongo Boy]

Haven't seen these ^^^ in a LONG time--it's amazing how a flood of memories rushed through my brain when I saw that very distinctive trigger guard in your photos (on the 3, 4 and 5). It's just frustrating, a little, that such lovely handguns are now basically collector's pieces.

Your Automag 4 is actually the only 10mm Magnum I've ever heard of--everytime I visit the Starline site I wonder if anything was actually ever chambered in that caliber. Now I know the answer.

I understand Sig just came out with a 10mm offering and Glock just produced it's 3rd 10mm offering--a longlslide no less--so progress is being made. But as much as I absolutely love 10mm and can appreciate the utility and price of a Glock, but those aren't machined mechanical marvels, Automag 4s or anything like them. What a mouth-watering collection.

Enough whining and wonderin' about the ways things might have been--they don't make Deusenbergs anymore either and I guess I'll be okay with that. I expect my Grizzly will last my lifetime (not a tall order really, at this point), and to me it's a piece of history, American innovation and entrepreneurship, and born of a rock-solid concept that appeals to me--that's good enough.

[Mike Irwin]

My experience with various automag products over the years has not been good.

I fired an AutoMag II (.22 WMRF) that failed to fire about 20% of the time, failed to feed about 50% of the time it did fire, and regularly failed to eject.

The Automag III I shot (.30 Carbine) fired OK when I had my hands on it, but rather quickly cracked the slide in several places for the original owner. He was never able to get any satisfaction from the company, IIRC.

The Automag IV (10mm Mag.) came in to American Rifleman when I was on staff there. About every third shot the baseplate would fly off the magazine and the guts and rounds would go everywhere. It also had a nasty habit of locking open on every shot until the last one.... when it absolutely refused to lock open.

I always called IMI/AMT products the worst most expensive handguns ever made...

[Bongo Boy]

That is SO funny!! I look down inside my M&P 45c and wonder how such a Fisher-Price collection of coil springs and stampings functions at all--no 'mechanical marvel' there in that sense. That little piece of cheap plastic shoots more accurately and reliably than any gun I own or any I've ever fired, one Ed Brown, one Les Baer and one Sig Elite Stainless included. My absolutely stunning Model 41 that I dreamed most of my life of owning and finally could afford to buy jams at least once per magazine, and it's been 'fixed' by Smith & Wesson. It sure is a beauty though.

Sometimes form precedes function, and function just can't catch up.

[44 AMP]

Sometimes form precedes function, and function just can't catch up.

There you go. Except I would modify that statement to say "function isn't allowed to catch up".

AND, it is a catch-22 type circle.

Most of the magnum auto pistols have failed in the market. Besides all the other factors, function was a big issue. The companies making some of them either couldn't, or didn't do the best job possible in many ways. Radical new designs ALWAYS have bugs, and quirks.

When your total production and sale amounts to a few thousand units, you simply don't have the experience base to get all the bugs out. Without major financial backing, you're in a tough spot. Even the niche market you are aimed at doesn't want your gun if it doesn't work well, so you don't sell many. And if you can't sell enough, you don't stay in business long enough to get the bugs out.

Desert Eagle went for a massively overbuilt (in some ways) design. Mechanically they work pretty well, within their intended range, The majority of the "flaws" in the Desert Eagle design are inaccurate expectations in minds of potential pundits. I, on the other hand am completely accurate and justified when I say they could have done the grip better! (sarcasm, and a joke)

I thought this was because they wanted a single frame design that would also accommodate 50AE--and if that's the case of course it makes sense.

It would make sense, and I can't speak to what the designers knew or planned, but the .357 Mag came out (retail sale) in about 1984, the .44 Mag some years later, and the .50AE some years after that. Not sure (have to do some research) but I don't think the .50 was even thought of when the first DE's hit the market.

[RickB]

At one time, someone was making .45 WinMag conversions of the M1 Carbine. It seemed like a pretty cool piece, though like a lot of "cool pieces" I've seen over the years, I'm not really sure what it's for?
I think the converted 15rd Carbine mags held only six or eight rounds, and that seemed to hurt the concept.
I chrono'd some .45 Super rounds out of a converted, 6" .45 ACP, and you can get a 230gr bullet up to 1200fps without going to a really big gun.

[Sevens]

Believe it or not, I knew the man that was trying to get that .45 Win Mag/M1 Carbine project off the ground. His name was Tim LeGendre and he was from the area where I grew up and I shot smallbore with his son for a short moment in time back in the late 80's. I really don't know almost anything about how far he got with the project but I do distintively remember that he got at least one (maybe two?) shout-outs from Jeff Cooper in the back page column of Guns & Ammo magazine. For the time... that was almost minor celebrity status.

MWM, always love to hear about your Automags...
But your collection lacks the 9mm Win Mag -- perhaps as rare as the 10mm Magnum.

[RickB]

Cooper was a fan of the "Thumper" concept of a light, handy gun that shot a big bullet.

[Bongo Boy]

It's a weird thing--sometimes big companies that cover a lot of ground with their products and services can afford to try to pick up niche markets--they have the expertise and access to capital that can allow them to reduce their risk to a minimum and yet tolerate the loss should it happen. Glock might be an example with their 10mm offerings--where they probably sell a relative few. The product itself has virtually no risk at all because it's essentially identical to every other product they make and sell scads of. Other cases are quite surprising to me, though--such as the case when Miller Brewing attempted to peel off a bit of the craft beer market, at a time when craft beer was creeping up to about 1% of the brewed beverage market. They too built a high quality product, but it simply didn't come from a credible source and died a very quick death--possibly for many other reasons.

Well, the 16 lbs of 4227 came today and the press is set up to load some 44. Man was I surprised at how hard it is to jam 22 gr of that stuff into a 44 Mag case! Wow. Looks to me like most published loads that are mid- to max-book are going to be at least a little bit compressed for sure. Oh well, it's what was available and I understand it's good stuff for loading under cast payloads. That's what I got.

THe 45 WM brass will be here Friday and by the time that Grizzly gets to the Club, I should have an adequate stockpile to support a range review of great detail and accuracy.

[EnoughGUN]

Most parts in the grizzly are normal 1911 parts and the ones that are not are not likely to brake
the grizzly is not a1911 cobbled together to fire another round. It was purpose built for the 45wm
460 rowland doesn't come close to 45wm
The grizzly is not THAT huge. 44mag revolver relm, smaller than a desert eagle.
Starline still sells brass for the 45wm and it can be loaded with existing .45 cal bullets. I have some with 300gr jhp and 230gr fmj at 1700fps. New ammo can be had on gunbroker for $.70 a round
As far as recoil yeah its "aggressive" with heavy loads. COGAN can port it to tame the jump for a really reasonable price. I was warned not to use smooth grips with heavy loads and no porting( I have no stippling on the grip front). Yeah thats a suggestion you may want to listen to. I don't have large hands and the gun will climb out of my hand.

Sorry for the sterile post method, was hard for me to remember all the points.

[44 AMP]

I've never used 4227 (no real reason just never got to it).

For .44Mag,.44AMP and .45 Win mag I have used Unique, Blue Dot, AA#9 and WW296.

I should have an adequate stockpile to support a range review

Am I reading right, that you are going to load the 45WM brass before you get the gun?

Should be ok, but I personally don't load ammo in any quantity without the gun available.

Do you have .45WinMag dies? Everybody makes the point of how the WM can be loaded with ACP dies, and it can. Done it myself a bit. Found out that what works best is a dedicated set of dies. I found a set of WM dies at a show, and snapped them up. The other solution is to get a spare set of acp dies and dedicate them to the WM. You don't have to, but I found it easier for me.

As to smooth grips, checkered grips, and stippling or checkering, etc., I'd just like to point out that the sharp pointy stuff that locks into your hand so you can shoot a 1911 like a machine gun becomes a cheese grater when you get to a certain level of recoil.

Just a thought...