178 gr ELD-X .308

[Stats Shooter]

I am making a new hunting load for my AR-10, 16.125" barrel, 1:10 Twist. I will be using Lake City 2x Fired brass (fired in that rifle previously) that I just annealed. FL sized setting the shoulder back 0.0045". CCI-BR2 primers. IMR-4064 powder

I bought some of the 178 gr ELD-X bullets. I wanted to know if anyone has used this combination, or at least just IMR 4064 and ELD 178 bullets. I know the A-Max has been used with this combo but the A-max is 0.11" shorter than the ELD-X overall, I don't know how much of that is bearing surface or ogive as I have no experience with the A-Max. In any case, Im not sure how much the A-Max load data helps me.

I checked the case capacity of 5 pieces of sized brass, they are around 54 gr. water which is less than a SAAMI .308 (56) but more than quickloads 7.62x51 (52). I currently have a load for this rifle using the 175 smk and IMR 4064, but the SMK is shorter than the ELD-X also.

Hodgdon doesn't have that bullet using in its online resource, and Hornady doesn't have that powder with this bullet.

I really Like IMR 4064 in .308 for 165-180 gr bullets and have about 16 lbs of the same lot. I could use varget but it is a bit slower than IMR 4064 and some of the rounds I have loaded up for testing are already compressed at 40.0 grains, so more/slower powder isn't going to work.

Plus, I need it to fit in the magazine, I don't like shooting single shot AR's so 2.810 is the MAX oal that will feed in this rifle. Otherwise the rounds begin to hangup.

I have a load range I am going to test that I built in quickload where i have 2 accuracy nodes estimated from my barrel time calculator...but I kind of feel like I am pioneering a bit and want to know if anyone has used this combo...at least the bullet and powder.

[disseminator]

I have no experience with this exact bullet and powder but....

At those low velocities a lighter bullet is probably advisable for hunting use. If it's just plinking or whatever than no problem but I'd take a close look at the terminal ballistics of that bullet at such low speed before I shot any game with it.

Personally, I'd look at a 125-150 grain bullet for that gun.

[Stats Shooter]

At those low velocities a lighter bullet is probably advisable for hunting use. If it's just plinking or whatever than no problem but I'd take a close look at the terminal ballistics of that bullet at such low speed before I shot any game with it.

Low? 2400-2500 fps isn't that low with a 178 gr bullet. It's a 300 yrd or less gun and the muzzle energy of a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps is within 100 ftlbs of a 178 gr bullet at 2450 fps. Plus the 178 gr ELDx retains its down range energy better because of its higher BC than a 150. Plus, a 30/30 Which has probably killed millions of deer with a 150 gr bullet going slower than this 178 gr bullet in an AR-10 seems to do fine.

And the eld-x according to hornady is designed to expand as a long range hunting bullet at lower velocities down range.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just saying I didn't choose this bullet on a whim for this rifle....But unfortunately I'll just have to rely on Quickload for my initial workup

[jmr40]

I've been loading that bullet for my bolt guns with extremely good accuracy lately. I'm looking for an elk load and think I've found it. I've used 180 gr Nosler and Hornady interlock bullets in the past. I just used that data, started low and worked up.

Hornady offers that bullet in factory loaded ammo at 2600 fps. Which is almost exactly what I'm getting with Varget. My load would never work in Lake City brass, I'm at 44.5 gr with a lightly compressed load. That is 1/2 gr below max. I've used 4064 in the past with good results. I don't think you'll have any trouble finding a load that will work well. And 2400-2500 fps is probably doable in a 16" gun. My 18" rifle is only 50 fps slower than my 22" guns with that load.

Those bullets expand well between 2800 fps down to well under 2000 fps. I've read reports of over expansion from magnums at close range, but that won't be an issue with 308 or even 30-06.

With the BC's of that bullet I'm still almost 1900 fps and over 1400 ft lbs energy out to 500 yards with my load. That is MUCH better than you'd get with a 150 at that range. The lighter 150's will shoot slightly flatter (less than 5" at 500 yards), but the heavier bullets sure hit a lot harder.

[Stats Shooter]

My load would never work in Lake City brass, I'm at 44.5 gr with a lightly compressed load. That is 1/2 gr below max. I've used 4064 in the past with good results. I don't think you'll have any trouble finding a load that will work well. And 2400-2500 fps is probably doable in a 16" gun. My 18" rifle is only 50 fps slower than my 22" guns with that load.

My Federal GMM 175 gr clone load using all the same components which I detail in another thread gave my 2400 fps in this gun. The load I beefed up a bit using all the same components but instead of 41 gr 4064 I used 42.8 gave 2512 fps.

While that was a totally different bullet and brass with another 2 gr water capacity, I think I should be able to get to 2400 fps or so. Which would make an excellent 300 yrd or less hog/white tail load.

Also, you mentioned elk. My favorite elk load is the 210 gr accubond in .300wm. it is a DRT load at 400 yards (confirmed by me )

My dad uses the Barnes triple shock for elk and my brother uses Speer hot cores....They haven't lost an elk yet either.

One reason I'm trying this bullet is because I used to use the interbonds but I had to do a lot of blood tracking on hear/lung shots. Plus the lead tips got messed up hitting the feed ramps, especially if I had to download and then reachamber it. So I'm trying polymer tips

[disseminator]

Low? 2400-2500 fps isn't that low with a 178 gr bullet. It's a 300 yrd or less gun and the muzzle energy of a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps is within 100 ftlbs of a 178 gr bullet at 2450 fps. Plus the 178 gr ELDx retains its down range energy better because of its higher BC than a 150. Plus, a 30/30 Which has probably killed millions of deer with a 150 gr bullet going slower than this 178 gr bullet in an AR-10 seems to do fine.

And the eld-x according to hornady is designed to expand as a long range hunting bullet at lower velocities down range.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just saying I didn't choose this bullet on a whim for this rifle....But unfortunately I'll just have to rely on Quickload for my initial workup

I didn't mean to come across as belittling your choice. Or that mine was so much better.

I ran your numbers in QL just as you did and using an average case capacity as you did above, I came up with 40.8 grains for 2406 fps.

Hornady says that bullet is good to 1800 fps which agrees with your statement of being a 300 yards max rifle. As for the 30-30 bullets, I find they are softer and expand much more readily at lower velocities than bullets for 308 and 300 magnums do.

Don't get me wrong, I love big slow high BC bullets. I shoot a 175 Nosler ABLR in my 7mm08 around 2680 fps and it's great so I see the appeal. And I also have a load for the 210 ABLR in my 300 WSM, they are like laser beams in that gun.

But check out the Nosler AccuBond or Ballistic Tip 125 grain at around 2950 in a 16" 308. That makes your 300 yard gun, a 400-500 yard gun.

It's just one opinion really. I've read enough of your posts to realize you know what your doing.

Have fun.

[Stats Shooter]

I didn't mean to come across as belittling your choice. Or that mine was so much better.

Oh no worries man. I an not a snow flake, I can handle some constructive criticism or suggestions. In fact I didn't know they had Accubonds that light, I am an Accubond fan. I use them exclusively in my .300wm hunting rifle. (I also have an unhealthy infatuation with the .300wm , I have 3 of them)

I may go ahead and make a load for them too, but I would probably use Benchmark, it's my go-to powder for light .223 and .308 bullets. I have a very nice plinking load using cheap 147 gr fmj's and benchmark.

But I appreciate the heads up on the Accubonds. Who knows, this bullet/powder may suck in this rifle.
My Ruger SR 556 varmint hates 55 gr bullets for some reason so who knows until you try.

Plus this bullet is long, takes up a lot of case volume to fit in the magazine.

[disseminator]

Glad I could help.

[jmr40]

Lots of folks only look at muzzle velocity. It is impact velocity that matters. If you give a 150 gr SST a 200 fps head start at the muzzle, the 178 ELD-X catches it at just over 300 yards and is faster at any longer range. Trajectory is less 2" different out to 300 yards.

[Stats Shooter]

That's another question, bullet performance. We all know the "traditional" rules of thumb, 1,000 ft. lbs for deer, 1,500 ft lbs for elk, 2,000 ft. lbs for brown bear/moose.

But isn't it more about bullet performance than energy? According to hornady's white papers on the ELD-X, the bullet was designed to properly expand at velocities down to 1,600 fps. With the 178 gr bullet as an example using Hornady's 4DOF calculator, 1,600 fps is 1,000 ft. lbs of energy. So this covers the traditional rule of thumb, and Hornady's recommendations for deer.

But what of larger game? If the bullet does in fact do its job at velocities down to 1,600 fps, would that not be fine for elk or moose even though it is 1,000 ft lbs which is below the traditional rule of thumb?

I guess what I am implying is that maybe the old rules of thumb were based upon bullets that would only do their job at certain velocities, i.e. the jackets were tougher so that you needed a velocity that delivered 1,500 ft. lbs of energy for an "elk bullet" to properly expand and get a clean kill. However, if you had a bullet designed to expand properly at 1,000 ft. lbs, like the 178gr eld-x, then that would work just fine too.

I just wonder how much these old rules still apply today given the more modern design technology of bullets. Perhaps they still apply for the timeless Nosler Partition, but not so much for newer barnes or hornady bullets.

[Unclenick]

Those rules of thumb are over-simplifications. Bullet energy is not all there is to bullet "power". Indeed, the very reason there are a number of different knock down and stopping power formulas available is that none of them work very exactly nor equally well in all situations. So, the rules of thumb are more like notions of what someone feels is a good idea. It gets written into regulations in some instances, but who knows if the authors base it on actual personal experience or second hand information.

People have hunted and killed deer with handgun ammunition that is nowhere near 1000 ft-lbs. A .45 Auto is typically at around 350 ft-lbs and will kill a man, and if it will kill a man, it will kill a deer. But then you get into arguing how fast it will work and how much additional tracking you might have to do and how much closer you need to get for a clean hit, etc. So .45 Auto is not normally a first choice for deer hunting, though there are folks with carbines in that chambering do it anyway.

It's a case of there being a large ballpark range. As always, your ability to hit the best place has the most influence on effectiveness of the bullet. A hunting arrow, for example, often has around 50 ft-lbs, but it still lethal. It has very high sectional density compared to a bullet, so you see from that how sectional density gets into some of those knock down or stopping power formulae.

Resized case capacity is not what determines pressure. As-fired capacity does that for cartridges operating at over 30,000 psi, but it does determine compression of the powder.

[disseminator]

Lots of folks only look at muzzle velocity. It is impact velocity that matters. If you give a 150 gr SST a 200 fps head start at the muzzle, the 178 ELD-X catches it at just over 300 yards and is faster at any longer range. Trajectory is less 2" different out to 300 yards.

No doubt. But when you are only starting out at 2400 fps that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room IMO.

Similar but different:

I worked up a load for my 300 Blk that uses a 190 grain Nosler ABLR bullet at 1700 fps that Nosler says will expand reliably as low as 1300 fps.

Should I Deer hunt with it?

It will be above 1300 fps for more than 400 yards. It will drop below 1000 ft pounds at 150 yards. At 400 yards it will have about the same energy as most magnum pistol loads used for hunting deer.

Do I really trust that the bullet will perform at 1300 fps? Could it be an issue in heavy woods? What if it's really cold out and my initial velocity drops a hundred feet per second or more? Losing 100 fps reduces my 400 yard gun to 300 yards.

While my example is a bit more extreme than what Mississippi posted above, it's not that far off either.

IMO of course.

[Stats Shooter]

So I tested 60 rounds today. 10 different charge weights, 6 shot groups, all shot over a chronograph. Today in Mississippi it was 77 degrees and humid of course. Negligible wind, 200 yards.

I tested from 38.8 gr - 40.6. No pressure signs in any load tested. Two charge weights grouped decently. I had to adjust my case volume measurements to get Quickload to track my velocity but it was close at each charge once I adjusted.

Here were the two promising loads,

39.6 gr 4064
1.75" at 200 yards , 6 shot group
2295 fps
Es 11 fps


40.2 gr 4064
1.90" at 200 yards, 6 shot group
2334 fps
ES 8 Fps

I'm gonna try and go on up. With the adjustment and pressure tracking velocity. Plus no pressure signs and ejection akin to a light load in my AR-10, I think I can go on up to around 41.6 safely. Hopefully I find one more accuracy node higher.... Because if I can't get North of 2400 fps I'll have to change bullets.

The optimal barrel time formula suggests I'll find a node near 41.2, we'll see .

I'm not changing powder though . I won't shoot this load often enough so it has to work with 4064 or Varget.

[Stats Shooter]

I'm off work this week so I finished the 1st round of testing the 178 gr ELD-x in my AR-10.

A reminder, I am using IMR 4064, cci-BR2 primers, Lake City 12 brass, in a Ruger SR 762 with Swarovski Z3 scope, and a Voodoo muzzle brake. 3-1/2 lb trigger.


I shot groups from 40.8-42 gr in 0.2 gr increments. This time I only shot 4 shot groups instead of 6 in case I had to pull bullets due to pressure..

I won't post the data for 40.8, 41, 41.2, 41.8, and 42 because the groups were poor. Also, noticable pressure signs at 42 with flowing primers and extraction marks.

The picture below is 41.4 gr, it yielded a 1 MOA group at 200 yards despite a 10 mph cross wind. Velocity around 2417-2420
[IMG][/IMG]


The next image is 41.6 gr, same wind, fired about 10 min after the 41.4 gr group. Velocity around 2430, about 1" or 1/2 moa at 200 yards.

[IMG][/IMG]

I know the image says 42.6 but it is 41.6, I wrote it wrong.

I doubt this is a consistent 1/2 moa load, I'm not sure the gun is capable of that. But it seems the high accuracy node is 41.4-41.6 gr. Or about 2420 -2430 fps. Which is a barrel time of 0.900ms.

Incidentally, that exact barrel time is what was predicted by the optimal barrel time formula.

Beware though, this is a max pressure load!!! In a 24" Barrel it would likely yield about 2630 fps or so.

[Stats Shooter]

Not sure if anyone is still following, but I decided to settle on 41.5 gr as it was in the middle of the accuracy node.

I checked the velocity of the 100 rounds I loaded at 41.5 gr., 2426 fps.

I think I'll now try developing a load for my model 70 .300 win mag. I'm considering either the 212 accubond or the 212 ELD-X. We'll see how that goes

[trdjohn71]

thinking of trying these 178 eld-x, any issues with seating stems? I use lee dies, but have access to forster ultra dies too

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[Stats Shooter]

thinking of trying these 178 eld-x, any issues with seating stems? I use lee dies, but have access to forster ultra dies too

In my AR's , and in this case my AR-10, I use a standard seating die (RCBS). The run-out on RCBS standard dies is as low or lower in some cases than competition seating dies costing 3x as much.

In my bolt guns I use Forster ultimate seating dies because they have low run-out and they can handle compressed loads.......... This is a compressed load.

So to answer your question, as long as the Lee die can handle a compressed load I think you are fine

[JGC]

178Gr ELD M
42.5gr Varget
Hornady Brass
CCi Primer
2.890 OAL
Remington 700 .308 Varmint 26 inch Heavy Barrel
1/4@100 cloverleafs
Magneeto velocity average 2630

[JGC]

178Gr ELD M
42.5gr Varget
Hornady Brass
CCi Primer
2.890 OAL
Remington 700 .308 Varmint(1:12) 26 inch Heavy Barrel
1/4@100 cloverleafs
Magneeto velocity average 2630
Lee Press All Hand Loaded/Weighed/Sorted

[Stats Shooter]

Probably a soft shooting load in that gun. Did you see what the max was before settling on that load?