Are you really a good shot?

[Axion]

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

I think that you're right in that you're going to have a much harder time proving that you were in fear for your life if you shoot someone 50 ft away. But I still practice as 75' because I read hear, and believe, that this is the best way to make your accuracy at 30' really good. A couple weeks back I was shooting decent (by my standards) groups at 50'. The next week i worked mostly at 75', but when I dropped back to 50' it was soo much easier to get tight groups.

[Rangefinder]

I spend most of my serious time on the long range with my rifles. I do work with my handguns every time I'm at the range, and yes--if I take my time on my shots I can stack 'em pretty tight out to about 25 yds. But for defensive purposes (which is the main purpose of my handguns--not including the fun factor) stacking the tightest group possible isn't practical. As stated earlier, fast, accurate delivery of the first few rounds is what will likely make the difference. Think of the physics behind a bullet impact with the focus being on the temporary and perminent cavity. If you DO manage to stack the second and third shot right on top of the first (on an advancing agressor, while in a high-pressure situation), you're actually minimizing the effect of the follow-up shots by shrinking the area effected and greatly increasing the possibility of a pass-through (not something desirable in an actual shoot situation). As it's been said many times before, you will react how you train. For that reason alone, I try to maintain a fast but instinctive 3", 3-shot group at 10 to 15 yds, with the first at tight CoM and the other two above to form a triangle (that's the general goal anyway). Yes, I can tighten it up, but for defensive shooting it defeats the purpose of the loads I carry.

[rhgunguy]

If I keep two in the "A" zone on an IPSC target in between .5 and .75 seconds at about 10 yards, I am happy...for now. Would I like to be quicker? Yes. Would i like to shrink the impact area? Yes. Would two shoots center of mass in .5 to .75 seconds probly save my life? Who knows, but I would hope yes. Realisticaly, you would not want to place two or more shots right on top of eachother in an attacker as you are reducing the area damaged. But if you can put any three on any three spots, you ought to be fine.

[TrumpetShooter]

Rem33, I totally respect your aversion to shooting at a human target. I mean no disrespect by what I'm about to say, but I feel that I should say it. It might save a life.

The day I got robbed at gunpoint (in a nice suburban community with a low crime rate) changed my whole outlook on survival. Since that time I have learned that a majority of the school shootings in recent years have taken place in rural communities. In addition, criminals often follow people home from the place where they first spot them as victims and decide they are an "easy mark."

Most importantly, I learned that the criminals ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT HESITATE TO PULL THE TRIGGER. The one who shot at me had absolutely no remorse whatsoever. His only regret is that he didn't hit his target, as that target came back to bite him in the back side in court.

We are good, moral people. We don't want to think about shooting someone. That sense of good and right within us can possibly become a deterrent to our survival, if it causes us to hesitate at the thought of defending against a violent attacker. We never know when we will be called on to save a family member, a friend, or even our own lives. When we are under attack, there is NO TIME to hesitate; no time to think; no time to philosophy, no time to decide. We must only react. That reaction must be correct and it must be immediate. Only proper practice can place us in a position to react to an attack with confidence.

You and I are not like the criminals. They don't care whether you live or die. They just want what you have, or they want to hurt people for reasons you and I would be hard pressed to comprehend. So, we must practice. I believe we need to rewrite the the old adage: "Practice Makes Prefect." It is not exactly correct. I believe "Practice Makes Permanent" is closer to the truth. If we practice incorrectly, our memory, including or muscle memory, becomes engraved with that incorrect practice. It becomes necessary to utilize the most life-like targets and techniques available to us in order to cut down on the hesitation factor.

Again, with all due respect, our hesitation to shoot at a FAKE human target may translate into hesitation to shoot at a REAL human target. That is a recipe for death.

We can ill afford the luxury of deciding to carry a gun only in "bad neighborhoods," because the bad guys know where the money is. They make most of their hits in ritzy neighborhoods. In addition, how many times have you heard someone on television say, "I never thought it could happen here in (fill in the blank with your town or neighborhood)."

I applaud the heart and spirit that does not wish to do harm to another human being. I feel that too. I only hope it doesn't take a robbery or worse to make Americans wake up to the real threats that lurk in the shadows of even the nicest communities and countrysides.

[Powderman]

TrumpetShooter:

Bravo, sir (or ma'am). Bravo! Well said, indeed.

To Rem33:

There is a rather popular saying that has found truth many times, and that is that you will fight in the same way that you train.

As TrumpetShooter stated most eloquently, the beast is alive and breathing. Those who would do harm to other human beings have NO compunction about hurting you, and about hurting others--even hurting your loved ones in front of you.

I speak from the experience of being both a sworn police officer, and from living the first 18 years of my life in the City of Chicago, mostly in the Englewood neighborhood, where I have seen first hand the terrible things that human beings can do to another.

And, believe me, thugs and criminals COUNT on our repugnance as decent human beings to keep us in check; indeed, keep us entranced in horror as they commit their crimes. For it is the initial contact--the first, usually most violent part of the encounter that instills paralyzing fear in the victim, and allows the criminal to complete the deed.

However, criminals have one trait that is universal--and that is that they are all cowards at heart. They will flee headlong at the first sign of organized resistance.

If a mugger or rapist sees a petite, slender female walking alone around a corner, they might be inclined to commit an assault. However, if the female's six-foot five inch brother who is built like an Olympic bodybuilder comes around the corner, they will more than likely turn away.

If a burglar or jack artist sees a home where he thinks the occupants are asleep, he might pull out the burglar tools and get to work...

right until the 90 lb. Belgian Malinois who was asleep in the living room shows him a mouthful of teeth.

The person who decides to commit a strong arm robbery on you, as your family watches might think that he has it made..

Until he finds himself looking down the gleaming blue steel of a Smith and Wesson revolver, hollowpoints visible in the cylinder, and above it all your basilisk stare, fixed in firm resolve with the unspoken message right in line with that front sight.

So, train. Get used to shooting those silhouettes. I pray that you never have to use a firearm to defend your life; but if you do, don't hesitate--and don't miss.

God bless.

[clt46910]

I think one of the things that are being missed here, is that the ability of tight groups on the firing range means you can be able to shoot accurately.

Under stress you will not be able to do this. But because of your ability to shoot so accurately at the range will mean you should be able to keep your rounds within a smaller range then someone that can not shoot so accurately. If you can stack one round on top another at 25 feet. You will be lucky to keep them within 6 inches under stress. So looking at lack of damage from stacking rounds is unrealistic. If you feel that being able to keep them on paper is good enough. Then hitting your attacker would be very hard under duress and would be mostly just luck. Do you really want to count on luck.

Yes, tactical training and practicing draw and presentation are best. But as some have said, they don't have a range that allows that. Practice what you can at home. Then try and keep your shots as tight as possible at the range. The muscle memory and eye hand coordination you develop will pay off in a confrontation.

[rem33]

trumptshooter and Powderman,

Well said both of you, but I do think you have completely misunderstood me. I am not a pacifist in any since of the word. I would and have defended me or mine. I have lived where I carried everyday, everywhere, even when it was not legal. San Bernardino for a couple of years in the late 80's. Gang members everywhere, I didn't live in a good neighborhood. I felt it was better to get caught with it than without. It was never even pointed at someone but there were times it felt good knowing it was there. There was no way to even apply for a permit.
I feel proficient enough with a hand gun to protect myself and mine and support any ones right to defend them selves or their family, or property probably more than the law would allow. It is just I hope to never shoot anyone ever, not that I wouldn't, and I am not going to practice such and don't support it unless your a cop.
Go shoot a target that is not a human. Get lots of practice and be very familiar with you gun. Don't practice something you never plan on doing as your much more likely to do it. Not to not be prepared.
Good grief I have shot pistols many thousands of times and killed hundreds of animals hunting, so I am not against shooting stuff.

[JohnKSa]

I'm not going to get dogmatic about using humanoid targets...

However, there is reasonably good evidence to support the premise that the more realistic your practice is, the more likely it is to carry you through a defensive encounter.

Likewise there is reasonably good evidence to support the premise that a failure to practice in as realistic a setting as possible can result in hesitation to use deadly force and/or a complete lack of response.

Lt. Col Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" provides some very interesting and valuable insight into this.

[BigJimP]

I'm between # 1 and # 2 - but even at 45 feet I'd want a group the size of a basketball at the biggest - in that upper chest area with say 12 rounds in 20 seconds - with a reload.

Putting 3 shots on top of eachother - off hand at 45 feet - is just a pure accident in my opinion. it would be nice but it isn't practical.

[Tokamak]

I always try to shoot the center of every bulls eye and constantly critique my shots to see what I did wrong. Did I flinch? Did I wait to long to pull the trigger causing excessive shaking? Did I see the bullseye go past and rush the shot? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I can NOT hold the sights steady on the bullseye. The best I can do is waver around it and slowly pull the trigger hoping for a hit near center.

One handed, at 25' I get most hits within a 20" diameter or 10" radius circle - so I am usually withing 10" of my targeting point. Thats with a .357 with a 2" barrel. I can get much better groups, down to about a 5" with my .22 lr Ruger Mark III with a 6 inch barrel.

In a real life situation, I will settle for a hit in the chest with a .357 - anywhere in the chest. I seem to have that ability at 25' and I am pretty happy with that.

No mater how much I practice I can not seem to get any better than I currently am, but I keep trying to improve.

So I strive for perfection and have to settle for what I am capable of.

[LICCW]

I'm a perfect shot as long as no one is shooting back at me, I'm not being robbed, no one is breaking into my house, and no one is at the range to see my groups.
In reality, I have my good days and bad days. On my good days, I'll tell you one inch groups at 25 yards are a must, on bad days I'll tell you as long as i'm hitting somewhere in center mass I'll do OK when TSHTF. But no matter what level of expertise you may have, just keep on practicing!

[Deaf Smith]

Am I a good shot?

Well I'm so fast on the draw I go back in time. Plus I shoot so strait space warps to make way for my bullet. And I fire so fast the bullets stack up in the barrel.

But really I'm just an average Texan shooter.

[CrackerJim]

I think the gentleman that said "Practice makes Permanent" is right on target (pun intended).

When things go bad, the muscle memory you've developed will allow good shots with out thinking about it. To me, this is key, as there will be no time for running down the checklist of proper shooting technique.

My buddy and I were at the range today. What ever else we're shooting, I always put a box through my snubby. I'll start with two cylinders of two handed slow fire at 15 yards for fun (all in dinner plate size area).

Then the other 40 rounds at 5-7 yards off hand and not looking at the sights but bringing the gun up, point my arm and shoot. This is both left and right handed (half each). Much of it is from the gun laying on the shooting stand (holster draw is not allowed at the range; out in the woods I'll draw from my pocket holster - getting the gun out of the pocket and properly set in my hand as it comes up is important) and two shots each then one shot (5 shot S&W) At this distance, the shots are all inside the dinner plate sized circle.

To me, this is the minimum skill to maintain. Perhaps down the road, it'll shrink to salad plate size .

Jim

[rem33]

CrackerJim
Sounds like good practice to me.
I used to throw the older beer cans that weighed more than now and practice slow draw, a Single-Six point and shoot. Got to where I could hit the can at the 40 or 50 feet I could toss it 50% of the time. Skipped one down a dirt road like in the movies once. It was great fun and no doubt you developed into a fairly good off hand shot.

[The Canuck]

I mix and match my target ranges, rates of fire and rapidity of target acquisition. I cannot get a CCW (Canadian) but I know from experience that the range and conditions under which you might need to fire will never be a set piece. The ranges will vary, the targets presented will vary, the light copnditions will vary and so will the needed amount of force (number of rounds) to stop the criminal.

[MACK_USCG]

In the Coast Guard our first course of fire is from the three yd line. 3rds in 6sec from the holstered position. We train to draw the weapon right from the holster, tuck our elbow in to our side, keeping the weapon paralell to the deck fire 2 rounds and the third round is strong hand supported. They say that in most LE cases that officers draw their weapon and use deadly force 3-6 feet away. Now in my job we work in real close to subjects while boarding vessels which makes it real dangerous for a gun grab or a knife attack. A study was also done and it takes the average officer the distance from a pitchers mound to home plate (roughly 21ft) to draw his weapon, sight in and eliminate a threat before getting knifed.

[Axion]

One handed, at 25' I get most hits within a 20" diameter or 10" radius circle - so I am usually withing 10" of my targeting point. Thats with a .357 with a 2" barrel.

I mean absolutely no offense by this at all, but if that was the best I could do I'd get a more accurate gun. Like many have said your accuracy under stress is going to be a lot worse then it is during practice and 10" is quite a wide margin of error IMO.

[revjen45]

Please do not take this a a flame. A more accurate gun is probably not the answer. Dry fire on a regular basis and ball-and dummy with the help of friend can be a big help in shrinking your groups. Shooting at longer ranges can help one's mindset in seeking accuracy, just as shooting at short ranges helps with speed. Being well-rounded is a good idea. It is true that SD situations are usually close up affairs, but a nice group at 25 yd always makes me feel good.

[Axion]

I made the comment about a more accurate gun because a) he said no matter how much he practices he can't do better and b) a 2" barel is pretty short so maybe a longer barrel might help.

[JJB2]

it's been such a long time since i've got to shoot my model 27 i don't really know how well i can shoot it anymore... i have shot my bowling pin swinger target before at around 30 yards and managed to hit every time... i have been shooting my 1022 custom lately and that thing is like a laser.... puts all the shots into group in the middle of the target i can cover with my fingertip....... I LOVE IT!!!!

[otasan]

An excellent test of one's shooting and accuracy skills under pressure is competition bowling pin shooting.

The pins are 8 meters away, and they need a lot of momentum applied to move them back three feet across a hostile table surface. This means handguns capable of achieving at least power factor 200ish. That's a 200 grain bullet at 1000 FPS, or a 230gr bullet at 870 FPS.

The target size is about the size of a 12-ounce aluminum beverage can.

Can a shooter use five shots to take off five pins at 8 meters, especially when going man-on-man against another shooter and his/her own table? Iron sights, by the way.

So there you have it. A high-powered handgun/ammunition, five small targets 25 feet away, and you are under a time limit or are trying to beat the person next to you. And it is all over with in a few seconds, just like the vast majority of gunfights.

It is too bad that the run-n-gun athletic shooting sports using game guns and low-powered calibers/ammo is what goes for practical shooting these days.

IDPA is pretty close, though.

[enikkor]

As a new shooter(about 1 year) I'm confused and mostly dissapointed
with my shooting and what kind of targets I like to shoot. I read of these
experts extolling the tight groups they do and there is no way
tht I can do it that good right now. I feel frustrated. Later my shoots are
now mostly in the black 9 or 10 " black paper circle and feel a little better,
shot at 25 ft. If I move the target 50 feet, most of the time I can hit paper
but the groups are not tight. When I move it 75 feet(25yds), my frustration
level increases and I'm unhappy with myself. I think I'm hard on myself and
think that I may not be giving myself enough time to develop bullseye
shooting.
Self defense practice is another complete different thing. At first I cannot
hit the human target, but as time goes on, my shoots are hitting the
target, mind you, not all are COM bullseye, but if you think about it, looking
at the target, even if the groups are not that tight, all are in the chest
(heart, lung, back neck) and the lower flyers hit stomach. If that was the
assailant, he is in trouble. I have to work on speed and precision.
We have to distinguish "Bullseye" VS self defense shooting. I think tight
grouping is a bragging right but there are other importantthings too.

[otasan]

You are too hard on yourself.

You shoot better than most LEOs and their lives depend on their marksmanship!

Like the directions to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice.

It took me many years to learn to shoot cloverleafs at 25 feet.

[burnera]

In hair raising situations i refer to the author Douglas Adams: "Don't Panic"

[Vitamin G]

Was when i could consistently get outstanding groups with most all of my guns, and beat all of my friends in informal "scored" friendly contests. We did alot of offhand shooting, shooting with rests, plinking at iron plates at 100yards with 1911's, glocks, and BHP's. I was at the point where I could, on a good day, hit a 12" iron plate about 60-70% of the time at 100yards. I was quite chuffed with myself.
Then, on a juvenile moment, we had a (with attention to safety) "Matrix" style round, in which we ran laterally to the target while firing at it, from about 5-7 yards.

Imagine my suprise when i hit the target, once, out of 15. Did i mention my one hit was in the 5 ring? I was stunned.

Been doing alot of IDPA\IPSC style practice since then, and I've never done a match of either, other than the IDPA qualifier. REALLY opened my eyes that there are different "styles" of shooting.
I could make scrambled eggs, and considered myself a master chef.