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Old April 19, 2016, 06:19 PM   #1
stonewall50
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Do you grapple?

This may seem like an odd question, but do you regularly or semi regularly do any kind of drill drawing your firearm from an in close situation? I am no suggesting you try and do it while the guy has a hold on YOU, but I am thinking more along the lines of do you have a plan if someone has a grip on you?

Some things I would suggest are learning guard, learning escapes, and learning a lot of shrimping. And not the fishy kind . My reason for bringing this up was that I noticed several CC friends who really lack the grapple knowledge that would save them in a fight. Personally I am almost a purple belt in BJJ, which is a sport, but I do feel confident against anyone with limited knowledge.

Additionally does anyone have some good grapple drills to throw into my training to help me improve?


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Old April 19, 2016, 07:22 PM   #2
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The shrimping, or "skrumpin" depending on what part of the country you come from, is a good technique to recover from a grapple.
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:11 PM   #3
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I am a purple belt in bjj and have done Muay Thai for long time. If you want some good Bjj drills do a lot more stand up grappling/judo/wrestling. I think for self defense on the ground a Bjj blue belt is more than enough. But most bjjers stand up is terrible at lower levels unless they are competing a lot or have a wrestling background. Try to start rolling standing rather than on the knees...although I realize you risk more injury doing that and not all schools are big enough to let people do that
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Model12Win View Post
The shrimping, or "skrumpin" depending on what part of the country you come from, is a good technique to recover from a grapple.


Very true and like I was learning tonight against one of my peers who is very strong and very large, do not stop shrimping does not work alone it has to be done repetitively. I am trying to make myself notoriously difficult to keep on my back. I may not win my tournaments that way but my goal is not to be a competitive jujitsu fighter my goal is to be a self defense jujitsu fighter.
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:15 PM   #5
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I am a purple belt in bjj and have done Muay Thai for long time.


I have never been a superb stand up finer my punches are fine and I have I have done boxing. My brand really just relies on dirty fighting techniques like punching at the neck and throat. I would much rather and a confrontation before it gets to my gun but still have the option.

There's also the confidence that it adds if you find yourself in an uncomfortable situation. Imagine how different the world would be a George Simmerman been able to get away from tray von Martin rather than shoot him.
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:19 PM   #6
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I am a purple belt in bjj and have done Muay Thai for long time. If you want some good Bjj drills do a lot more stand up grappling/judo/wrestling. I think for self defense on the ground a Bjj blue belt is more than enough. But most bjjers stand up is terrible at lower levels unless they are competing a lot or have a wrestling background. Try to start rolling standing rather than on the knees...although I realize you risk more injury doing that and not all schools are big enough to let people do that


Reply to your edit:

My coach is a former Judoka from the old school Brazil judo tournaments that were big money. He teaches us about half and half standing and grappling. He hates weak stand up game for BJJ. My stand up grapple is good enough to do the leg sweeps, trips, and the basic hip tosses and so on.

I agree that mor BJJ courses don't focus on stand up enough.
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:28 PM   #7
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Well one of my cop buddies just arrested a parolee, for failure to yield. Foot bail, and got beat up pretty well, the swarm finally took the guy down with a taser. He knocked out the trainee, and took my buddy down with a leg sweep, and 2 good punches to the face. They don't think the perp was on drugs, just pumped up, and knew how to fight. All, any training, is an addition to the toolbox. They never went to guns, just fighting. He is charged with felony evading, possession of a controlled substance, and a loaded magazine, gun was not found, plus gang enhancement. Probably good for 5 years.
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Old April 19, 2016, 08:39 PM   #8
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Well one of my cop buddies just arrested a parolee, for failure to yield. Foot bail, and got beat up pretty well, the swarm finally took the guy down with a taser. He knocked out the trainee, and took my buddy down with a leg sweep, and 2 good punches to the face. They don't think the perp was on drugs, just pumped up, and knew how to fight. All, any training, is an addition to the toolbox. They never went to guns, just fighting. He is charged with felony evading, possession of a controlled substance, and a loaded magazine, gun was not found, plus gang enhancement. Probably good for 5 years.


Yea. Violence of action is a huge advantage in a street fight. Being able to lay into someone AND Take them off their feet? That is how you win.
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Old April 19, 2016, 11:02 PM   #9
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Grapple? No I punch, kick, bite, elbow, knee, gouge eyes, spit, scream, rip off ears, grab hair, choke, knife 'em, shoot 'em, etc.

Yes I've been in judo and Krav Mags so I have working knowledge of this grappling. But I use it to keep being pinned to the ground. I try to stay off the ground if I can and you will find that is a smart move.

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Old April 20, 2016, 07:30 AM   #10
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Grapple? No I punch, kick, bite, elbow, knee, gouge eyes, spit, scream, rip off ears, grab hair, choke, knife 'em, shoot 'em, etc.



Yes I've been in judo and Krav Mags so I have working knowledge of this grappling. But I use it to keep being pinned to the ground. I try to stay off the ground if I can and you will find that is a smart move.



Deaf


Well grappling is not just ground fighting. It is also the standing sweeps, trips, and throws that knock the other guy down . One thing I have noticed is that someone who throws haymakers is off balance to some good sweeps and trips. I'm not expecting anyone to be an expert if they don't practice regularly, but as you said...knowing how to defend against it is also really important.
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Old April 20, 2016, 08:27 AM   #11
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Didn't know it was called "grapple" but yeah, been doing it since I first got into LE in 1974, and still practice/teach it 22 years after I retired,

Some form of hand (or elbow) to the face/eyes as you draw and fire with the revolver/pistol held close to your waste.
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Old April 20, 2016, 11:59 AM   #12
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Didn't know it was called "grapple" but yeah, been doing it since I first got into LE in 1974, and still practice/teach it 22 years after I retired,



Some form of hand (or elbow) to the face/eyes as you draw and fire with the revolver/pistol held close to your waste.


Lol. That is what WE call it in class. Grappling is basically the techniques that aren't striking (sort of...I mean I strike the heck out of the back of someone's leg when I throw them with an OsotoGari). But it also consists of what you are doing if you get knocked down. That is a scary place If you don't know what to do.
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Old April 20, 2016, 01:25 PM   #13
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What about the "grappling" situation is taking you down the road to deadly force? Is a knife suddenly in play or some other sort of weapon? Do they know you have a firearm and are trying to get to it?

Just asking because we all know just because you're going hands on with someone doesn't mean you legally get to pull your gun but the tone of the thread seems to suggest that. Maybe I read it wrong.

That said I think a practical fighting skill such as BJJ combined with a striking art is invaluable as part of someone's self defense skill set. Heck even just being in good physical shape is a very good start.
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Old April 20, 2016, 05:47 PM   #14
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I do not grapple, at my age I rely on my wits and dirty street fighting. If I have to, I will use the Mike Tyson manuever and bite your ear off. I lift weights and at 340 lbs I am still pretty strong so I doubt many people will try a one on one against me. And after working in the medical field for more than 30 years and teaching anatomy I know exactly how and where to hurt you with very little effort. Hope it never comes to that, If at all possible always chose the correct decision as their is always a choice and walk away with a bruised ego rather than a bruised face, knuckle, etc.
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Old April 20, 2016, 07:10 PM   #15
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I do not grapple, at my age I rely on my wits and dirty street fighting. If I have to, I will use the Mike Tyson manuever and bite your ear off. I lift weights and at 340 lbs I am still pretty strong so I doubt many people will try a one on one against me. And after working in the medical field for more than 30 years and teaching anatomy I know exactly how and where to hurt you with very little effort.
This is terrible advice for most people who do not weigh over 250 pounds. I have seen many guys with this attitude come into the gym, challenge anyone there to a one on one with no rules, and its not usually a pretty sight. I have seen this happen to rangers, navy seals, x pro NFL football players, cops, etc. I have seen it too many times to count. I have so many stories of challenges that I have witnessed throughout my years of training that I wouldnt even know where to start. That doesn't even include the people that come in to train and but really want to fight someone and just get maimed once they reveal their intentions. Remember that knowing how to hurt someone and how to stop an attacker are two very different things. You can hurt someone and they can and will still fight you. They wont feel the pain until after the fight is over.
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Old April 20, 2016, 07:46 PM   #16
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I have to agree with Adam. Take a very strong man with no training and put him against a much weaker man with skill and the outcome won't be pretty. Fortunately I learned this lesson on the mat instead of the street.

Train, and train some more, be it with firearms or martial arts. It has a way of humbling you.
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Old April 20, 2016, 09:05 PM   #17
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What about the "grappling" situation is taking you down the road to deadly force? Is a knife suddenly in play or some other sort of weapon? Do they know you have a firearm and are trying to get to it?



Just asking because we all know just because you're going hands on with someone doesn't mean you legally get to pull your gun but the tone of the thread seems to suggest that. Maybe I read it wrong.



That said I think a practical fighting skill such as BJJ combined with a striking art is invaluable as part of someone's self defense skill set. Heck even just being in good physical shape is a very good start.


Well if you are being attacked...you very likely have a good reason to shoot someone. Most states seem to have the tone of "fear of grievous bodily harm" and to me...most people may have that reasonable fear if they are outclassed enough by someone physically (God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal).

But all bluster aside. The point is more to keep you from having to go to guns. Like I said in a previous post: if Zimmerman hadn't of been a fat sack...he would likely have not have needed to shoot trayvon. And that is ignoring the whole getting out of the truck thing. And that is my main point. Practicing may keep you from having to go guns.
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Old April 21, 2016, 12:07 AM   #18
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Adambob, I was not giving advice, I was simply stating what the situation is with me. I have never challenged anyone, for I am not a bully and I am very comfortable with my manhood in which I do not have to prove it to myself or anyone else. I simply stated facts for my 59 years that I have been alive. As a matter of fact I made a light joke of it by referencing Mike Tyson. The only advice I did give is that their is always choices and if you can walk away from a fight and not let your ego get the best of you, walk away or run.

And I answered the question "do I grapple" and the answer is a definite no.
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Old April 21, 2016, 12:56 AM   #19
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I've dabbled in different grappling and MMA styles (high school wrestling, bjj, krav maga, boxing). I maintain decent all around fitness in addition to doing heavy bag workouts once or twice a week.

That said, I'm nowhere near proficient in any of the above mentioned sports/fighting styles, but I'm experienced enough to know when I'm starting to tangle with somebody who is, and when it's time to try something else.

Your most effective weapon in any confrontation is your brain. If you stay aware, plan for a few of the more likely scenarios, and prepare accordingly, you will probably find you can avoid/deal with most of them much better with a little bit of planning.

Example: After pulling up to your grocery store and getting out of your car, somebody pulls up pissed because you unintentionally and unknowingly cut them off a half mile back. They hop out and start coming toward you because they want to rumble. It's much easier and safer (for everyone) for you to paint their face with a small can of pepper spray then get out of the way while they run around swinging blindly than it is for you to roll around in the parking lot trying to fight them while keeping your Glock 26 from popping out of your passive retention IWB holster, even if you are a proficient fighter.

But by nature we train and prepare for the worst case scenarios. If I was wanting to do alot of grappling training I would incorporate training guns and focus on weapon retention and escapes, as that will be your primary goal if you end up in a fist fight with your gun and aren't actively shooting somebody. If you can find training guns that have the trigger guards blocked out they will probably be safer. I've seen fingers broken during training sessions where people are wrestling over a fake gun and somebody sticks a finger in the trigger guard to try to get better control over it.
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Old April 22, 2016, 10:20 AM   #20
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Well.... there's a reason I carry a revolver appendix when I'm carrying my Glock 19 at 4 o'clock. When you're in a physical altercation that close up, a revolver won't go out of battery when you jam it into your attackers body.
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Old April 22, 2016, 06:58 PM   #21
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Am I capable of grappling? Probably. I have a varied martial arts background and am versed in weapon retention. Am I going to grapple?

If I am things have gone horribly wrong already. I am not a peace officer. I am not in a position to have to arrest anyone nor should I be attempting to. I am going to do everything I can to retreat from a situation. If I find the situation cannot be retreated from effectively I am going to do everything I can do avoid grappling - Kenpo emphasizes strikes aimed at joints - if I can step through an ankle and end my attackers willingness to continue the attack that is what it is going to take.

However I have a few simple rules about unarmed combat outside of an agreed upon sporting engagement:

1) Win at all costs
2) Arm yourself as effectively as reasonable
2A) If you did not bring a weapon find one - something
3) Use overwhelming force until your attacker no longer desires to continue the attack

There is no grappling involved in my philosophy. Might it end up that way? Perhaps but if it does i have done something wrong. I have also left myself incredibly open to a secondary threat. There is no escalation of force. If I am using force I am in a moral (and likely legal) position where the use of deadly force is justified and it is my intent to use as much force as I can bring to bear against my aggressor until his or her aggressive actions cease. Retreat if possible and engage only if necessary. If you must engage see the rules of combat above.
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Old April 23, 2016, 04:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ton View Post
I've dabbled in different grappling and MMA styles (high school wrestling, bjj, krav maga, boxing). I maintain decent all around fitness in addition to doing heavy bag workouts once or twice a week.



That said, I'm nowhere near proficient in any of the above mentioned sports/fighting styles, but I'm experienced enough to know when I'm starting to tangle with somebody who is, and when it's time to try something else.



Your most effective weapon in any confrontation is your brain. If you stay aware, plan for a few of the more likely scenarios, and prepare accordingly, you will probably find you can avoid/deal with most of them much better with a little bit of planning.



Example: After pulling up to your grocery store and getting out of your car, somebody pulls up pissed because you unintentionally and unknowingly cut them off a half mile back. They hop out and start coming toward you because they want to rumble. It's much easier and safer (for everyone) for you to paint their face with a small can of pepper spray then get out of the way while they run around swinging blindly than it is for you to roll around in the parking lot trying to fight them while keeping your Glock 26 from popping out of your passive retention IWB holster, even if you are a proficient fighter.



But by nature we train and prepare for the worst case scenarios. If I was wanting to do alot of grappling training I would incorporate training guns and focus on weapon retention and escapes, as that will be your primary goal if you end up in a fist fight with your gun and aren't actively shooting somebody. If you can find training guns that have the trigger guards blocked out they will probably be safer. I've seen fingers broken during training sessions where people are wrestling over a fake gun and somebody sticks a finger in the trigger guard to try to get better control over it.


Well my thing is that as a concealed holder we have a responsibility to avoid confrontation, and further still...we have a responsibility to avoid a lethal confrontation at all costs. I DO carry pepper gel in my truck (better than spray because if I'm in my truck it won't get all over me...though I bet it tastes good...I love spicy food). But take your incident...say it is some guy who doesn't give you a chance to grab the spray?

It is possible to end up in that physical confrontation even if you did everything right. Especially if you are dealing with a drunk or roid raging jerk hole. Being in good physical shape is great, but knowing the basics is probably more important. I'm not a great stand up fighter. I mentioned this in a previous post. But I know how to fight dirty and I will. I boxed a little. But my stand up is based around judo/jujitsu and taking someone off their feet of possible. Simple kicks, trips, and sweeps that require minimal effort.

Honestly? If I had the time? I would learn Kung Fu or Tai Chi. You would be amazed at how good it is for simply keeping yourself upright in a confrontation. But I digress. Knowing at least some minimal grapple knowledge is really important in the self defense repertoire.

Ps

I wouldn't laugh at a big guy who knows sumo. Or even a medium sized guy. Lyoto Machita was a sumo fighter. And it is essentially stand up only grappling Judo. But I was mainly thinking of keeping yourself from being in serious dookie if you got knocked on your butt.
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Old April 23, 2016, 04:25 PM   #23
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Am I capable of grappling? Probably. I have a varied martial arts background and am versed in weapon retention. Am I going to grapple?



If I am things have gone horribly wrong already. I am not a peace officer. I am not in a position to have to arrest anyone nor should I be attempting to. I am going to do everything I can to retreat from a situation. If I find the situation cannot be retreated from effectively I am going to do everything I can do avoid grappling - Kenpo emphasizes strikes aimed at joints - if I can step through an ankle and end my attackers willingness to continue the attack that is what it is going to take.



However I have a few simple rules about unarmed combat outside of an agreed upon sporting engagement:



1) Win at all costs

2) Arm yourself as effectively as reasonable

2A) If you did not bring a weapon find one - something

3) Use overwhelming force until your attacker no longer desires to continue the attack



There is no grappling involved in my philosophy. Might it end up that way? Perhaps but if it does i have done something wrong. I have also left myself incredibly open to a secondary threat. There is no escalation of force. If I am using force I am in a moral (and likely legal) position where the use of deadly force is justified and it is my intent to use as much force as I can bring to bear against my aggressor until his or her aggressive actions cease. Retreat if possible and engage only if necessary. If you must engage see the rules of combat above.


To me...grappling is:

the art of knocking others down, how to get back up if you are knocked down, and how to win if you are on the ground. Nobody said you would have a choice in going to the ground. Sometimes you have no choice. I took a self defense class a while back and one thing they enjoyed about having me was that if they got overly ambitious I frequently threw someone to the ground. That is a good thing to know how to react too.

My entire principle of conflict is very stoic in nature. I'm going to avoid it. But that is no realistic. Nor is it realistic for me to believe I will keep a fight within the realm of my own expertise
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Old April 23, 2016, 08:40 PM   #24
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I don't really call it "grappling" I call it fighting. I have experience and training in martial arts, ground fighting and wrestling. A career in LE I have been in hundreds of fights. I am 6' and 275 and work out regularly.

I see grappling as one component of fighting.
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Old April 23, 2016, 09:23 PM   #25
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I don't really have any experience grappling and wouldn't be confidant in getting into a physical fight with a stranger. I compensate somewhat in that if a situation arose, I plan to maintain distance, change my position so that objects are in front of an aggressor if possible, and keep an eye out for any blunt weapons I/he can use, as well as being prepared to use my pistol if necessary.
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