The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 7, 2016, 09:58 PM   #26
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,204
Plus show a video where you can hit an A Zone in .5 seconds from concealment!
He didn't say anything about hitting the A zone. Also, while he was technically talking about drawing from concealment, it's not the same thing you mean when you say drawing from concealment. From his post...
If you pocket carry, and start with your hand in the pocket, using a shot timer, you should be able to draw, fire and hit a man size target at 3 yards in less then 0.5 seconds.
Starting with your hand on the gun and with the accuracy criteria of hitting a man sized target at less than 10 feet, that doesn't sound out of the realm of possible.

Of course that's a completely different problem than starting from a position with your hands outside of a concealment garment that has to be cleared and requiring A Zone hits.
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 7, 2016, 10:15 PM   #27
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
How fast are you?
I'm so fast I go back in time (and I bend bullets to.)

“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 10:22 AM   #28
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
hbhobby "When shooting IPSC I am usually at .8 to 1.1 secondsfrom beep to first shot. But that is knowing ahead of time and mental preparation."

And those times are realistic as measured by a shot timer from an open holster,, it's the same for USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge, etc.
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
9x45 is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 10:31 AM   #29
Senior Member
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,789
learn the mechanics of the draw. speed will comes when your movements are second nature.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 10:40 AM   #30
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
kraigwy "If you pocket carry, and start with your hand in the pocket, using a shot timer, you should be able to draw, fire and hit a man size target at 3 yards in less then 0.5 seconds."

My crew and I have done countless numbers of drills over the last 15 years and have a pretty good idea of first shot times. We use either a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro or CED 7000. The drills we run are; from holding gun on target, from the low ready, from an open holster, hands at sides, hands above, from concealment, USPSA/IDPA targets at 6 feet. Holding on yields .2-3 seconds, low ready .5-.6 seconds, open holster in the high .7's, concealed .9-1.2, and these are experienced competition shooters, who shoot 6-8 matches a month, 20,000 rounds a year, using full sized guns, CZs, 1911s, Glocks, from Kydex holsters, who have drawn their guns thousands of times in competition. The open holster times are from the hip, pulling your elbow back as soon as the gun is clear, or rolling 90 degrees.

A pocket draw can only be done with a 2 finger gun, not full size, you would have to clear the pocket and roll the gun on the target even on a B27, so lets see the video. The typical human re-action time is .27 seconds.
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
9x45 is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 11:34 AM   #31
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,206
In a real world situation, it will take some time to assess the situation, determine the source of the danger, determine if deadly force is necessary, etc.

That sounds like a lot of time; it is actually a very few seconds. But if it is not done, the risks are very high of shooting an innocent person, being shot by a police officer, or even shooting yourself. On most ranges, the target is the "bad guy" and it is assumed that firing is necessary. But the real world is messier, as several police officers have found out recently. And both "activists" and the news media will be merciless; they will be out for your blood.

Training to draw and fire at something or other without engaging the brain could, in the worst case, save your life. But if you go into "automatic shoot" mode and mess up, you could be facing life in prison.

It is hard to tell the range game player that the brain needs to be part of the training - it is easier to talk about "muscle memory" and "instinctive shooting" than target identification and assessment, but the person who does not make that distinction is not going to protect himself or anyone else, whether a police officer or an armed civilian; instead he/she will be a danger to everyone.

Very true. I would say what we are discussing here is the action once the decision is made.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 12:46 PM   #32
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,996
In the old days, 2 seconds was really fast for knocking 5 bowling pins off the table.
Mind you, when playing the assorted shooting games, you're prepared and are waiting for the beep. Better to be good than fast in the real world.
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 01:07 PM   #33
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2014
Posts: 102
Here is a good tip.
str8tshot is offline  
Old February 8, 2016, 03:03 PM   #34
Tactical Jackalope
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,401
1.10 - 1.50's. Depends on the gun. I carry appendix IWB.
Tactical Jackalope is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 12:02 AM   #35
Join Date: February 10, 2016
Posts: 19
hints and tips

A few handy tips based on my personal experience, your own feelings or experience may vary.

1. Start off with a good stout belt, I like the widest belt possible to fit the holster loops, so the holster does not shift around.

2. A good quality holster with a thumb break or retention strap.

3. I prefer a separate belt for my holster, not threaded through my pants belt loops.

4. Although I have pocket carried, it is NOT the best way to carry, at least use a pocket holster.

We used to see folks carry a High Standard 2 shot .22 Magnum in a wallet type pocket holster, and if a robber asks for your money, you look as if you are handing over your wallet, and you can shoot without removing the gun from the wallet holster, since it is designed for that.
DoctorWho is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 10:11 AM   #36
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,454
Well, your post managed to hit on about 20 different subjects that made me want to comment.

First, let me emphasize how important a good form and smooth draw is to speed. I would really recommend you get some formal training on how to draw a pistol smoothly and efficiently and then practice the fundamentals with an emphasis on executing each step smoothly and correctly rather than concentrating on speed. You'll be surprised how much that will assist with speed.

If like many people, you haven't yet been convinced of the value of formal training, at least take a look at this Paul Gomez video on the drawstroke. Jerry Miculek also has some great pointers on his YouTube channel. The thing is, a lot of people want to get fast, and so they practice and end up spending time developing and ingraining bad habits that they later have to work twice as hard to correct. Spending some money and time on good, effective training before you've developed those bad habits will usually save you money and time in the long run.

Also, dryfire practice (and lots of it) is important to establishing a solid, smooth, draw. Give some thought to that and make sure you have a safe backstop when practicing dryfire.

Second, if you want to evaluate your progress on draw speed, you need a good shot timer. You can buy one from any of the various shooting stores. If you are on a budget but you have a smartphone, you can even download a free shot timer app from Surefire that turns your smartphone into a shot timer. You just aren't going to get good data trying to time it yourself. There is your reaction time, the guy timing's reaction time - all kinds of little things that can conspire to add or subtract a good half second or more to your time.

Third, while I've never met anyone who wanted to shoot slower, most people are better served working on their situational awareness skills and thinking about how to handle potential incidents before they happen. Let's look at you for example. If you work really hard and manage a 75% reduction in your draw time that gets you to a 0.8125 second first shot at ten yards, which makes you competitive at the professional level. It also gives you what, an extra 2.2 seconds to work with in a life or death scenario? And you will need to work hard to reach that level of proficiency. On the other hand, noticing a potential problem before it becomes a problem and making a plan while you can still think calmly without your heart hammering has the potential to save you a lot more than 2.2 seconds.

To give an example, I once did a scenario where two guys begin arguing about their criminal enterprise in a diner. The argument escalates into a fight. One guy ends up shooting the other and then he is staring at you and the waitress - the only witnesses to what just happened. One of the participants just got up and "left the diner" as soon as the two started arguing. How fast his draw was didn't matter; because he used the time gained by good situational awareness to get away from that situation. I, on the other hand, got all keyed up - waiting to draw. Then I realized they were going to kill each other, I relaxed and sat there watching like it was a TV show, not thinking until the guy turned that pistol towards me how witnesses might be inconvenient for him. At that point, a 0.8125 second draw would not have helped me much.

So an emphasis on speed of draw is definitely useful; but there are usually other places in the Observation, Orientation, Decision, Action (OODA) loop where you can save more time and help yourself more in a self-defense scenario.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 12:27 PM   #37
Senior Member
Join Date: June 29, 2006
Location: Montana (Montucky?)
Posts: 1,238
^ Very sound advice! I have heard it echoed by many professional instructors.
No substitute whatsoever for situational awareness.

One trainer I know said it this way: "People talk about this gun or that ammo, but you know what I'd like to have most in a gun fight? One half second. One half second more to see it coming, and you can only get that through situational awareness."
You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
samsmix is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 12:30 PM   #38
Senior Member
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 668
How fast are you?

Fast is smooth, smooth is fast.

I will add that it is REALLY important to learn how to handle a physical altercation. Especially grappling. Being fast is great, but how fast will you be with bad form getting thrown around, punched, kicked, and knocked down?
stonewall50 is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 01:10 PM   #39
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 553
Draw speed is important. There is no doubt. In security forces school (marines) we had 1.5 second to draw and put two in the chest at 7 yards. The thinking is the average individual can cover 21 feet in that time. But there is obviously more to it. Hip drills at 5 yards and under and basic grappling techniques as others have mentioned are important too. Pistol distances tend to be so close that there is a very good chance that you will within arms reach or closer of your aggressor when it is all said and done.

Practice! Practice! Practice! Drawing is all about muscle memory.
jersurf101 is offline  
Old February 11, 2016, 04:39 PM   #40
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,881
How "fast" someone can draw and accurately fire a handgun is often sort of an artificial yardstick. Competition is one thing, but off the range? Other factors are often involved.

One time when I was attending an outside training class, one of the yardsticks used at the beginning and end of the week was drawing from realistic working concealment leather & working concealment clothing (plainclothes/tactics class). No IDPA, fishing or camera vests permitted.

Since it was an outside class occurring in winter months, much of my range work was done wearing layers, and my working leather was an OWB plainclothes holster. It was being worn underneath a pullover sweatshirt, under a zippered sweatshirt, under an insulated/quilted, thigh length coat. I ordinarily wore a suit or sport coat as a working cover garment, and sometimes a raincoat, but I thought the thicker layered clothing would make me work harder and help me learn whatever was being taught (and keep me warm ).

There wasn't a pass/fail time for the drill, but it was recommended that being able to complete it in 1.5 seconds or less was probably desirable.

The drill was drawing on an expected timer beep, firing a single shot at an identified threat target, at 5yds, using a 2-handed grip, while stepping offline to one side. Simple, right? A couple guys objected to the 2-handed requirement, as they believed 1-handed was faster. Well, they're right, it is faster doing 1-handed/hip-shooting ... except that 2-handed better lends itself to controllability, accuracy and using the sights. Tougher test drill.

Only 2 or 3 of us did it under 1.5 seconds on the first time through on the first day, but a lot of the class reached the goal, or came really close, by the end of the week.

Now, is that realistic for trying to gauge performance in the real world? Well, consider that we were positioned and expecting to shoot, at an already identified threat target, shooting a pre-determined number of rounds, anticipating the signal, not distracted by doing other physical activities or having to see/hear anything else ... and we knew nobody was going to be shooting at us.

Now, later in the week, that last bit (nobody shooting at us) was changed by including scenario training using Sim/FX marking cartridge guns, and things predictably went a bit to hell for some folks.

In the real world there are all kinds of expectations and distractions going on. Real reaction time has to be taken into account, too. Not just the reaction time while expecting and knowing you're going to shoot at something clearly anticipated, like on the target/training range, but within the possible context of the unknown imminent threat being mixed in and often hidden within everything that's happening around us in the real world.

The OODA Loop's first couple of steps are the hard ones, meaning to Observe and Orient on something happening. Being aware enough to observe it's happening, and cognizant enough to orient on how it may affect you, can take time. That doesn't take into account the "This CAN'T be happening TO ME!?!" reaction, either. That can burn time, too. The Freeze, Flight or Fight reaction is seemingly hard-wired into us, and it takes some effort to overcome its oft unexpected effects.

Then, there's got to be the Decide portion of the thought process. More time burnt. Especially if you got side tracked into the freeze reaction.

Lastly, the Act part of the process. It helps to not only have a plan about what to do, but probably some training and experience in actually doing it, and under some stress and duress. Subconscious competence, so to speak, without having to stop and consciously go through that mental Rolodex for each step of what you need to DO RIGHT NOW.

So, sure, some safe and controlled skills assessment is a fine thing, and it can help you identify where you may need some attention. It's just that being able to be "face" a known practice target, under ideal range conditions, may be better as a training/practice aid than something which may predict performance under surprise, stressful conditions which weren't replicated on a range.

Gotta be aware of what's happening, first, though, in order to hope to get past the "observant" part of things. You can practice that all the time.

BTW, when I got back from my training class, and was a bit proud of my performance, the head instructor did an impromptu demonstration. He'd been up all night working graveyard and was overtired and drinking coffee. While wearing his duty rig, without a cover garment (since he didn't have one on at the moment), he held his coffee cup in his off hand and told me to start the timer whenever I felt like it.

I waited a bit and did so. Without spilling a drop, he drew on the buzzer and fired a shot (1-handed, since he wasn't dropping his coffee) accurately into the smallest scoring zone of the silhouette. He did it twice, just to show me that sub .6 & .7 second times weren't flukes. No grumbling about what if he'd been better rested, either. Sigh. Back to the training range, right?
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old February 13, 2016, 03:33 AM   #41
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Blacksburg VA
Posts: 750
I haven't timed it live, but just last night I was using a shot timer app on my iphone to dry practice. I found out using a headset, and at full sensitivity it reads the click of the trigger.

Drawing my FNS-9 from concealed IWB at 3:30-4 at about 15 feet from the target.

I was using the Laserlyte trainer target to keep myself honest, so a roughly 6" circle.

Fastest time was 1.32 my worst time was 2.5 seconds (I got tangled in my jacket on the draw)

Most of my times were in the 1.70-1.90 range.

Since finances and work schedule have seriously reduced my range time.
(Also moving from having multiple ranges set up on private property, to having to use indoor ranges has been a rough adjustment)

If I can get back down to my parents I'll be able to try the times live, having a bunch of folks shooting means my shot timer is useless.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
rburch is offline  
Old February 13, 2016, 06:00 AM   #42
Senior Member
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,599
You need to practice putting that round in there while moving. Remember...move and shoot...that maximizes your chances of survival.
shootniron is offline  
Old February 13, 2016, 06:37 AM   #43
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2010
Posts: 384
I wish I were this good but relistically I can draw and fire my first shot in 1.5 seconds from an IPSC race holster.
thump_rrr is offline  
Old February 13, 2016, 11:12 AM   #44
Senior Member
Join Date: January 24, 2016
Location: NOLA
Posts: 185
If it was mentioned in this thread I missed it. But an important element of survival in a deadly force situation is rapid movement. Practice and program yourself to move, move quickly and move for cover while drawing. Practice shooting while moving.
Dranrab is offline  
Old February 13, 2016, 10:58 PM   #45
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
A little movement is a great improvement,
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
9x45 is offline  
Old February 14, 2016, 12:01 PM   #46
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2013
Location: Heart of Reagan Country
Posts: 479

It probably won't be how fast that you can draw and shoot that will determine whether you might become supine on a pathologist's examination gurney. It will be up to a bad guy's timing. Were it me, I'd spend a lot of time on defensive tactics, especially tactics designed to avoid bad guys' bullets. Not getting shot is far more important than how fast and accurate you are.

There is a lot of wisdom in extricating one's self from a potentially life ending confrontation without going for one's gun.
SansSouci is offline  
Old February 15, 2016, 06:44 AM   #47
Join Date: November 11, 2013
Posts: 28
I hit a personal best yesterday on a vice-presidente
.. 1.02s draw from surrender w/ OWB fobus
slide lock mag change in middle of string
targets: 3 @ 2/3 idpa steel at 10 yards 1 yard apart shoulder to shoulder -
no mikes -- D111R111
Attached Images
File Type: png Screenshot_2016-02-14-13-01-39.png (152.7 KB, 18 views)
scroadkill is offline  
Old February 16, 2016, 05:13 AM   #48
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Blacksburg VA
Posts: 750
You need to practice putting that round in there while moving. Remember...move and shoot...that maximizes your chances of survival.
I tend more towards the more or shoot school.

If I'm not shooting I'm moving, during draw, during reloads/malfunctions, transitions.

But I plant and shoot.

Part of that is training from Rob Pincus, but my hits are much faster and more accurate if I plant just as I'm going to the trigger.

I can move much faster as well.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
rburch is offline  
Old February 16, 2016, 09:18 AM   #49
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
thump_rrr, the guy in the video has really bad form. He immediately lowers the weapon after running the first shot, ie, no follow thru. And he calls it "extraction", not drawing the gun. Also sub 1 second draws at the distance are no great feat, especially without movement. The important thing for everyone is to practice life fire drills at contact distance to 5-7 yards out while moving with your actual carry gun in your actual carry rig wearing your everyday cover garment. The longer the cover garment, the more time it takes to sweep, a T shirt is faster than a regular shirt.
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
9x45 is offline  
Old February 18, 2016, 11:56 AM   #50
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,089
Sub 1 second draws from an IWB holster under concealment is much more difficult that drawing from on Open Division Steel Challenge holster.
Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....
9x45 is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11343 seconds with 9 queries