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Old February 6, 2016, 08:20 PM   #1
AL45
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How fast are you?

Today I had my son time how fast I can draw and accurately fire a lethal round at a silhouette 10 yards away. For me it was about 3.25 seconds. Being controlled and safe was my main concern. I carry an SP101 Ruger .357 in an IWB holster at about 4 o'clock. I was wearing a long buttoned shirt over it. Just curious if 3.25 seconds is a decent time?
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Old February 6, 2016, 09:17 PM   #2
Capt Rick Hiott
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I wish I was this fast!!

https://youtu.be/lLk1v5bSFPw
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Old February 6, 2016, 09:36 PM   #3
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Greatly depends on the holster. 1.5-2 sec
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Old February 6, 2016, 10:51 PM   #4
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YeeWow, that Jerry is some kind of impressive Capt Rick!
Thanks for the link.
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Old February 6, 2016, 10:57 PM   #5
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AL, 3.25 is a good starting time, but you can go allot faster with practice, however it's going to take hundreds of first shot times. The Jerry video does not represent either draw or concealment, however he does have the fastest trigger pull on the planet. 1st shot time depends on the gun, the holster and position, and the type of concealment. Fundamentals are more important: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. I have shot sub 1 second 2 shot times at contact distance, from concealment, S&W 640-1 .357 Rem Mag, carry clip appendix position. There are published videos of .6 second concealed appendix at contact distance, these are staged, and do not show the hits. They run hundreds of times to get one video. Point is you are actually doing it, under a timer, and most CCW guys only imagine they can do it. So keep practicing, measure your times, and video your draws. Don't know what holster you are using, but Kydex is faster than leather.
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Old February 6, 2016, 11:01 PM   #6
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My 2 cents is that when drawing from concealment, 2 seconds to an aimed first shot is acceptable, with under 1.5 seconds being a good goal to work towards.

That's probably more for targets a little closer than 10 yards.
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Old February 6, 2016, 11:06 PM   #7
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Clearing concealment alone can be up to 2 seconds. Your time is good having just started measuring it.
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Old February 7, 2016, 12:03 AM   #8
AL45
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Thanks for the input. I could probably go a little faster but I keep seeing images of Barney Fife. The holster I am using is a suede leather Galco and it holds the gun pretty tight. I normally just work on accuracy, but today decided to work on the draw and shot. I've always believed that he ability to draw the gun and get it on target quickly is as important as the ability to shoot straight. I will start practicing at home with an unloaded gun. Don't expect to ever get as fast as 9x45 or Jerry M.
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Old February 7, 2016, 08:48 AM   #9
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Al, a leather holster is slower, and a 4 0'clock position is slower, and a proper shirt slower than a T shirt, but if that's how you carry, then that's how you practice. Just curious, what shot timer were you using?
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Old February 7, 2016, 09:08 AM   #10
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First, times you will hear are beep to shot using a shot timer. Not sure how you did yours.

To get better, work with an unloaded good on being smooth with good form. I wirk at home on form alot. It transitions well to range work. Also, keep your eyes on the target and bring your gun to your line of sight. While it is a bit slower, focus on keeping your gun in close to your body. You will likely need this skill in a confined space.

Last, slow is smooth, smooth is safe/fast. Really focus on when do your hands meet up....when does your finger touch the trigger.

For me, this is elbow up to clear leather, elbow rotate down to put muzzle on target, safety off, hands meet, finger on trigger, extend, see front sight, fire before reaching full extension. I have to focus on slowing my extension slowed down for max speed. If my elbows lock out, accuracy and time go to hell. It is hard to draw warp speed, but slow the extension enough to get sights on target!

I forget my last times...
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Old February 7, 2016, 09:20 AM   #11
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The draw itself is important, of course.
There's lots of ways to either speed up or slow down the draw time.
Watch videos of the best shooters, especially how they avoid wasting time by not swinging the gun up in an arc.
They pull it straight up to eye height, and then straight out to the target.
Like Nathan sez, then the gun can be fired anywhere along that path out toward the target, depending on the accuracy desired.
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Old February 7, 2016, 09:24 AM   #12
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I dunno how fast it was in seconds,,,

But I could always outdraw Matt Dillon,,,
Fanner 50 with low slung plastic holster.

Aarond

.
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Old February 7, 2016, 09:29 AM   #13
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Yeah, when I was a kid, I had the fastest cap gun in the neighborhood.
Gotta' be careful when aiming at the tv with anything else, though.
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Old February 7, 2016, 10:38 AM   #14
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I think I'll make a video and post it here.

If you pocket carry, and start with your hand in the pocket, using a shot timer, you should be able to draw, fire and hit a man size target at 3 yards in less then 0.5 seconds.

Here are a couple range games:

Have your range partner, aim his pistol at his target ready to shoot. You gun and hand are in your pocket, facing your target. When you're partner sees you start to draw, he fires. 95% of the time you can get your shot off first.

Another: DO NOT USE A REAL GUN:

Using a plastic training (non-functioning) pistol. Have your partner stand in front of you at arms length. Have him hold his hands out, shoulder width apart. The idea is he sees you start to draw, he claps his hands together trying to beat the gun. If he slaps the gun or the gun passes through the clapping hands he looses. If the gun hits the bottom of the clapped hands, he wins.

You're really be surprised. Method of carry adds a lot. The benefit of the pocket carry is no one is concerned if they see someone walk around with their hands in their pockets. Where you are ready to display empty hands if the threat is not real, or a gun if the threat is there.
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Old February 7, 2016, 10:48 AM   #15
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When shooting IPSC I am usually at .8 to 1.1 secondsfrom beep to first shot. But that is knowing ahead of time and mental preparation. I bet in real world surprise my time would be much slower and my lethality much more questionable
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Old February 7, 2016, 11:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
I bet in real world surprise my time would be much slower and my lethality much more questionable
That's true, but via practicing you would be faster in the real world then you would if you didn't practice.

But with this practice, you should mix "no-shoot" targets with "shoot" targets. Its just as, if not more so, to be just as fast in not shooting.

Taking the first scenario I posted above. Where your range partner is standing there ready to shoot, and fires when he sees you start to draw.

Add a cell phone, your partner has to fire when he sees you start to draw, and not fire when he sees you come up with a cell phone.

No Shoot Targets will really get you.
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Old February 7, 2016, 11:19 AM   #17
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I'm working uspsa skills and training beep to first hit on a 2" circle at 8-9'. (Laser dry fire) Normal is 1.2-1.3 sec. Fast is 1.05 - 1.08. Only once broke a second at 0.96.

At 55 yo, my reflexes are slow by competition standards. There was a reflex test online and it showed me faster than age average, but still a good 1/3 of my draw is standing there like a doofus as the beep crawls and inches toward my laggardly brain. By the way, top competitors will be 0.7-0.8 beep to bang hitting the target, with screaming fast guys in the 0.5 range.
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Old February 7, 2016, 01:53 PM   #18
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Posted by AL45:
Quote:
Today I had my son time how fast I can draw and accurately fire a lethal round at a silhouette 10 yards away. For me it was about 3.25 seconds. Being controlled and safe was my main concern. I carry an SP101 Ruger .357 in an IWB holster at about 4 o'clock. I was wearing a long buttoned shirt over it. Just curious if 3.25 seconds is a decent time?
Well, if you happened to start your draw at precisely the same time that an average person with a contact weapon were to start toward you from that distance, he would be fifteen feet behind you by time you fired, unless you were moving back very fast.

Do not think in terms of "a lethal round". You do not care whether the perp will ultimately expire. You care about protecting yourself.

That will require stopping him fast, which in turn will require hitting something critical that is small and internal and moving, the precise location of which you cannot determine, and that will probably mean firing three to five shots.

More importantly, it is extremely unlikely that your hits would stop him as quickly as you might be thinking.

JohnKSa's assessment regarding time is realistic.

And you cannot really count on stopping him timely if you are standing still.
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Old February 7, 2016, 02:22 PM   #19
1stmar
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holsters used in uspsa are very different from carry holsters, in both retention and placement.
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Old February 7, 2016, 02:29 PM   #20
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^ That.

Just as a raw piece of date though, your time is a good starting point. Whether on the range or in the gym, benchmarking your progress is a good idea. I think, given the gun and holster you describe, you should be able to get this down to at least 1.5 seconds. Anything around 1 sec or lower is truly fast (again, given the gun and holster described).
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Old February 7, 2016, 02:40 PM   #21
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last time i timed it, 2.0 sec from beep to one shot fired on target.

Sig P320 full size 9mm with stock kydex holster. same gear i carry everyday.
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Old February 7, 2016, 03:38 PM   #22
AL45
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My son timed me with his phone. I would stand with my left side to the target and he would yell go. I would move my shirt up with my left hand and draw the gun with my right hand as I was turning. I would take enough time to get the front sight on center of mass. I could have fired faster, but spraying bullets in the general area of the target is a good way to miss and harm innocent bystanders. Obviously if the target is moving towards you, you must concern yourself with moving and defending yourself with your left hand while keeping the gun close to your body. Thanks guys.
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Old February 7, 2016, 05:03 PM   #23
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Practice dry fire drawing and shooting to get over this fear you have of spraying bullets. This is holding you back. With a little practice you will become comfortable with short range draw and point shoot. Remember in the real world most situations are within 3 yards.
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Old February 7, 2016, 06:51 PM   #24
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In a real world situation, it will take some time to assess the situation, determine the source of the danger, determine if deadly force is necessary, etc.

That sounds like a lot of time; it is actually a very few seconds. But if it is not done, the risks are very high of shooting an innocent person, being shot by a police officer, or even shooting yourself. On most ranges, the target is the "bad guy" and it is assumed that firing is necessary. But the real world is messier, as several police officers have found out recently. And both "activists" and the news media will be merciless; they will be out for your blood.

Training to draw and fire at something or other without engaging the brain could, in the worst case, save your life. But if you go into "automatic shoot" mode and mess up, you could be facing life in prison.

It is hard to tell the range game player that the brain needs to be part of the training - it is easier to talk about "muscle memory" and "instinctive shooting" than target identification and assessment, but the person who does not make that distinction is not going to protect himself or anyone else, whether a police officer or an armed civilian; instead he/she will be a danger to everyone.

Jim
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Old February 7, 2016, 09:29 PM   #25
9x45
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kraigwy

How do you time this??? " DO NOT USE A REAL GUN"

What is the shot timer doing if there is not bang? It only hears the bang from the beep.

Plus show a video where you can hit an A Zone in .5 seconds from concealment! You can imagine anything you want, but that is complete BS!. The ones that are posted never show the hits.... It only shows you can miss fast.

I've been playing this game since I started with Cooper in 1967, and have never, ever, never seen a first shot draw OPEN, let alone concealed, in under .85 seconds documented.

So just post up the video, include what shot timer you used...and show the hits
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