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Old March 18, 2019, 10:13 AM   #26
noelf2
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If Howell's would make a cylinder for these in either .32 or .38, rifled, I imagine I'd need one of those.
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Old March 18, 2019, 12:10 PM   #27
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If Howell's would make a cylinder for these in either .32 or .38, rifled, I imagine I'd need one of those.
With no front sight, I'm not so sure a rifled barrel would make much of a difference. To me, this seems like an "up close and personal" type of weapon. Load it with 2 or 3 round balls or wadcutters that were the same length as their diameter and you might have something that could be an effective SD weapon for places that restrict our 2nd Amendment rights. Especially if the cylinder was made from a strong enough steel to accept .357 mag pressures.
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Old March 18, 2019, 12:44 PM   #28
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With no front sight, I'm not so sure a rifled barrel would make much of a difference. To me, this seems like an "up close and personal" type of weapon.
The rifling wouldn't be for accuracy. It's a belly gun for sure. Rifling would keep it from falling into the NFA category (a smooth barreled pistol).
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Old March 18, 2019, 02:55 PM   #29
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The rifling wouldn't be for accuracy. It's a belly gun for sure. Rifling would keep it from falling into the NFA category (a smooth barreled pistol).
So you are actually wanting a cartridge gun. OK... I see... I would be more interested from an engineering perspective in something that could take magnum level smokeless pressures while at the same time being able to be classified as a replica with respect to the NFA. Something where we could basically thumb our noses at the ATF and their unconstitutional rules. Besides, here in Texas, the areas where we are prohibited from carrying firearms do not apply if you are carrying one of the pre-1890 replicas as long as they do not fire centerfire or rimfire cartridges.

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Originally Posted by Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 46.01. Definitions
(3) “Firearm” means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use.  Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899;  or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
As much as I would like to have a Texas Walker, I'm not really willing to carry something that large on my belt.

This Pepperbox is small enough that I would not mind carrying it when going to places that have a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.
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Old March 18, 2019, 03:05 PM   #30
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From the engineering perspective, you will have to figure out what you will need to use, instead of nipples and caps, to ignite a magnum(ish) charge. There's that pesky little hole in the nipple that will allow hot gasses to backflow. 209 primers perhaps?
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Old March 18, 2019, 03:51 PM   #31
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From the engineering perspective, you will have to figure out what you will need to use, instead of nipples and caps, to ignite a magnum(ish) charge. There's that pesky little hole in the nipple that will allow hot gasses to backflow. 209 primers perhaps?
Yeah, that would probably be a good choice. Considering how difficult it is to put the percussion caps on the cylinder when the cylinder is installed on the gun, I don't foresee it being a good choice if you anticipate needing a quick reload. But, I guess it is small enough that you could carry two (one on each side) if you were concerned with that. Personally, I wouldn't even mind it if you needed to use a tool to be inserted through the muzzle end of the cylinder in order to remove the spent primers.








Not a perfect fit for the holster, but it still feels snug.

And the obligatory cute puppy photo (blame it on my wife).

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Old March 18, 2019, 04:31 PM   #32
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Whether you are using smokeless or blackpowder, you are in fact a reloader and you should be careful of what you are doing. You wouldn't just put any powder in a modern firearm at any quantity and expect it to work, right? What would happen if you took a 220 gr jacketed bullet and put it on top of a case full of Bullseye in a .30-06? Probably a safe bet that it is not going to end up that well for the firearm. On the other hand, what would happen if you replaced that Bullseye with a .50 BMG or 20mm powder like W872? Unless you duplex the load to account for / simulate the hotter arsenal primer that the .50 BMG uses, you're probably going to get a bit less velocity than a more optimal powder for this caliber. And, if you are using a straight walled case, it's even more difficult for W872 to generate excessive pressures if you are not adding a duplex "kicker" on top of the primer. It burns so slow that you are more likely to just get a bunch of unburnt powder out the barrel. I tried using W872 in a 10mm handgun once to prove this and it didn't even produce enough force to cycle the action enough to eject the brass. The slide came back slightly with the brass still in it and then went back, still holding the brass. Pretty quiet load though. Very little recoil. Very low pressure.

Maybe someone with QuickLoad would be interested in running the numbers for us on these two scenarios?

A blackpowder firearm is no different. It is designed to withstand a certain pressure and whether that pressure is from blackpowder, a blackpowder substitute, or smokeless powder, it doesn't matter. If you exceed that pressure (regardless of what type of powder you are using), bad things might happen to you. If you stay within the design pressure limits, you should be safe. Where people get in trouble with blackpowder is not seating the bullet all the way down on top of the powder. With blackpowder, this allows it to generate more pressure so that you get more of a mini-explosion instead of a controlled burn. With smokeless, you get in trouble by *decreasing* the distance from the powder to the bullet since this increases the pressure and then there is the issue with many smokeless powders having different burn rates at different pressures. Whereas when we are reloading cartridge ammunition, we have a high degree of control over the OAL of the loaded cartridges, we just don't have that sort of level of control over it with a muzzleloader. It's easier to just tell the BP shooter to just ram the ball down the muzzle / cylinder on top of the blackpowder until it won't go any further vs to tell the potential smokeless-in-BP shooter to ram the bullet down until there is a 1" space between the powder and the bullet. Of course, where inexperienced reloaders would get in trouble would be if they made the mistake of using smokeless, but with the same charge weights as was specified for blackpowder.

I'm an engineer and as such, I like to experiment with things and gain knowledge. Blanket statements of things like, "you can NEVER use smokeless in a BP firearm" just makes me want to test it out. I'm pretty sure that 8" of concrete will protect me if my initial hypothesis is incorrect.
Best of luck in all your endeavors then...
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Old March 18, 2019, 07:02 PM   #33
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Best of luck in all your endeavors then...
If it blows up before I reach an acceptable load, I'll post the info here. Assuming they don't close this thread down at some point.

I'll also post it at this link...

Smokeless? Blackpowder?
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Old March 18, 2019, 09:09 PM   #34
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If it blows up before I reach an acceptable load, I'll post the info here. Assuming they don't close this thread down at some point.

I'll also post it at this link...

http://www.monkeywrench.space/navy-v...lackpowder.htm
Thanks, I’ll keep an eye on the thread.
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Old March 20, 2019, 01:48 PM   #35
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Initial measurements of cylinder.
Diameter: 1.571"
Chamber depth to edge of wall: 2.405"
Distance from muzzle to base of percussion cap cutout: 2.768"

Test #3:
0.360" round ball, knurled to increase diameter, set 0.78" from muzzle end of chamber
1.0 gr Alliant Promo powder
Very quiet load
No effect on cylinder dimensions
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Old March 26, 2019, 01:08 PM   #36
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I am having difficulty removing the cylinder on the Pepperbox that I bought. Not wanting to mess up the head of the screw, I have not used extreme pressure on it yet. Is it a standard right-hand screw and I need to turn it counterclockwise in order to remove it? Does the hammer or some other part need to be in a certain position or some sort on incantation performed in order to be able to unscrew it? I've looked in the manual that came with mine and it does not even mention anything about the Pepperbox models.
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Old March 26, 2019, 07:01 PM   #37
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Just a guess, but should turn opposite of cylinder rotation so anti-clockwise.
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Old March 26, 2019, 07:21 PM   #38
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Just a guess, but should turn opposite of cylinder rotation so anti-clockwise.
Looking at it from the screw head end, the cylinder rotates counterclockwise.

It's a fairly wide screw head, but the slot is pretty thin. Any screwdriver that I have that fits in the slot is also so narrow that if I put any sort of torque to it, I'll mung up the head of the screw.



I suspect that I'm going to have to make a custom screwdriver head to fit it. Either by starting with an oversize screwdriver and then making the tip a lot thinner or by making more of a wrench that has a flat blade in it. I'm more inclined to do the latter. Any commercial screwdriver that I've seen that is wide enough to fully engage the slot in the screw head would be close to 18" long. A custom slot headed wrench sounds better...
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Old March 26, 2019, 09:12 PM   #39
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Considering how thin the screw slot is, I wondered if a cartridge with the mouth hammered flat might be the right thickness, so I took one of the steel .300 AAC pieces to see how it might work out for a fit. Turns out that it is basically exactly the right width and thickness after it is hammered flat. Just needed to file the end flat and then grip the extended flat part with a pair of pliers to turn it while holding one finger on the primer end of the cartridge. First attempt was to hold the round body of the cartridge in the pliers, but that just resulted in the flat portion twisting and my needing to flatten it again.

Now, to create a more readily useable tool, I think flattening the entire cartridge and then mounting it inside of a handle with only 1/16"-1/8" sticking out would be about right. I tried laying a 1/16" drill bit inside of the slot on the screw and it was too thick, so the thickness of this "blade" needs to be less than 1/16" -- pretty thin screwdriver needed. It would have been nice if they had made the screw head a little thicker and then put a curved slot that would fit the profile of a quarter.

And yeah, the screw was threaded with normal right hand threads (i.e. clockwise to tighten, counterclockwise to loosen).

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Old March 27, 2019, 01:57 PM   #40
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I suspect that I'm going to have to make a custom screwdriver head to fit it.
Sorry I came into this issue so late. I use a piece of thin metal (like the back of a box cutter blade) gripped in a pair of pliers and turn the screw with that until I can turn it by hand.
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Old March 27, 2019, 03:19 PM   #41
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Sorry I came into this issue so late. I use a piece of thin metal (like the back of a box cutter blade) gripped in a pair of pliers and turn the screw with that until I can turn it by hand.
So, I'm not the only one who found his screwdriver collection somewhat lacking...
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Old March 30, 2019, 10:21 PM   #42
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Picked up a normal length cylinder to see if it will fit on the frame. Seems to have a slight amount of slop / wobble in it. Maybe the original bolt that the cylinder rotates around is slightly larger? Not enough of a difference that I could make a brass bearing to slide inside there. It would have to be less than paper thin.

The outer diameter of the cylinder is slightly smaller -- 1.532".

Created a spacer to make up the difference in length between the length of the pepperbox cylinder on my mini lathe. Basically a very thick aluminum washer 0.633"OD and 0.401" ID and 1.22" long.
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Old March 31, 2019, 07:59 AM   #43
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I had done the same with a new cylinder and a sheriff .36 barrel. Was a perfect fit except for a slight gap in the arbor slot, like Ubertis have. I don't recommend fitting another cylinder and barrel to these pepperbox frames as the wedge will damage the threads cut into the wedge slot of the arbor.
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Old March 31, 2019, 10:29 AM   #44
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I had done the same with a new cylinder and a sheriff .36 barrel. Was a perfect fit except for a slight gap in the arbor slot, like Ubertis have. I don't recommend fitting another cylinder and barrel to these pepperbox frames as the wedge will damage the threads cut into the wedge slot of the arbor.
Is the bolt that the cylinder rotates around a different length on the non-Pepperbox vs Pepperbox models? Do the non-Pepperbox models not have a threaded section in the end where a screw can be installed like the Pepperbox has? If they are different, I have to wonder why there is the slot for the wedge in the bolt that is on the Pepperbox model.

I hadn't considered the wedge slot... Maybe that could be used to hold the spacer on instead of the screw. By the time you had it tight enough that the wedge wouldn't fall out though, it might cause the cylinder to bind and be more difficult to rotate.
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Old March 31, 2019, 03:18 PM   #45
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Is the bolt that the cylinder rotates around a different length on the non-Pepperbox vs Pepperbox models?
It's called the "Arbor". They are the same length, but there can be a bit of variance based on date of manufacture of the frame. The gap, or even an extra length of the arbor is easily fixed, but a short arbor isn't really considered a bad thing because these guns aren't shot all that much. ALL Uberti open top cap and ball revolvers have a short arbor (from the factory). Piettas are a bit better from the factory, in that regard, but when you start mixing and matching pietta parts, sometimes luck is with you and sometimes it isn't.

Quote:
Do the non-Pepperbox models not have a threaded section in the end where a screw can be installed like the Pepperbox has?
No, they don't. None of them do from the factory. Some people drill and tap a small hole in the end of the arbor to hold a hex screw that can be used to put pressure on the wedge if it starts wearing from use, but the threads do not go into the wedge slot like the pepperbox screw threads do.

Quote:
If they are different, I have to wonder why there is the slot for the wedge in the bolt that is on the Pepperbox model.
Because all Pietta did was grab a bunch of already assembled 1851 Navy frames, and used them for pepperbox models. They were made that way by default. They didn't do anything special for the pepperbox frames except drill and tap that hole.

Quote:
Maybe that could be used to hold the spacer on instead of the screw. By the time you had it tight enough that the wedge wouldn't fall out though, it might cause the cylinder to bind and be more difficult to rotate.
Quite possible.

When I noticed the threads in the wedge slot of my pepperbox frame start to get boogered up by a wedge, I gave up on the idea of putting a barrel on it . Instead, I put the .36 cylinder and sheriff barrel on the frame I had for a 1851 .44 snubnose (the one I took the thunderer grip off of), and it was a perfect fit there also. In fact, like it was made for it. That one can now be swapped to be a .36 1851 Sheriff, or a .44 1851 snubnose.
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Old March 31, 2019, 05:27 PM   #46
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Very good noelf2.

Well stated. The Pietta Pepperbox is quite an anomaly, and I have no desire to obtain one, even though I have 8 Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type" pistols, all parts interchangeable.

Regards,

Jim
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Old April 1, 2019, 10:59 PM   #47
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Anyone tried Alliant Black MZ powder in the Pepperbox (or .36 revolvers in general)? I noticed that Sportsman's Warehouse has it for $9.99 per lb.
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Old April 2, 2019, 06:59 AM   #48
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Anyone tried Alliant Black MZ powder
Probably should make this a new thread to get more input. I have not. I just use home made BP, Goex BP, and sometimes Pyrodex. To save $$, stock up on BP substitutes just after muzzleloader hunting season in your area. Walmart and other stores usually dump their stock at that time. I get Pyrodex and 777 for $10 a bottle, and less.
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Old April 3, 2019, 11:57 PM   #49
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Anyone tried Alliant Black MZ powder in the Pepperbox (or .36 revolvers in general)? I noticed that Sportsman's Warehouse has it for $9.99 per lb.
The reports about it for use in revolvers in general have been very good.
It's a coarse powder but seems to ignite fine in revolvers and burns fairly clean.
No problems have been reported with it besides that it can have trouble flowing from some powder flasks.
Keep the lid tight and don't let moisture get to it.
It likes to be compressed in the chambers.

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Old April 4, 2019, 03:53 PM   #50
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The reports about it for use in revolvers in general has been very good.
It's a coarse powder but seems to ignite fine in revolvers and burns fairly clean.
No problems have been reported with it besides that it can have trouble flowing from some powder flasks.
Keep the lid tight and don't let moisture get to it.
It likes to be compressed in the chambers.
I ordered 8 lbs of it. Assuming 30 gr per charge, that works out to be 1866 rounds. Only ordered 600 percussion caps though, so I might have had a "disconnect" in my thought process.

UPDATE 4/6/2019 00:42 -- Sportsman's Warehouse's order fulfillment / tracking system leaves a bit to be desired though. I ordered it on the 1st and their system said that I would receive it on the 5th. I called them on the 1st to ensure that the caps and powder would go out on at the same time and I wouldn't get charge 2 HAZMAT charges for it. They said that it would go out the next day (i.e. 4/2). On the afternoon of 4/3, I finally got an email saying that the order was "shipped" and it had a UPS tracking number. When I checked on the UPS site, there was no record of it. It stayed that way for awhile until UPS finally said that a label had been generated, but the package had not been picked up. As of 4/6 at 00:42, it still does not show it having been picked up. So, either something is wrong with the Sportsman's Warehouse order fulfillment side or the UPS tracking system is not working right. Don't know which, but there is definitely a disconnect *somewhere*.
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