Are the snubies being underated?

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker

I shoot the small guns almost exclusively. Small 380's, Micro 9mm's and my two stubbies the 642 and the LCR9mm. I also train and practice with a LCR22 and LCP22. (along with a few others. And have been for over a decade.
If we are talking about the average Joe or Sally then yes the snubbie and the small guns have a longer learning curve, but once learned a owner can become very proficient, much more than the internet will lead you to believe.

As far as recoil, I do not find them in 38 or 9mm to be anything but easy to shoot. And recoil a very NON issue. Yes, at first, but as time goes on recoil is not even noticed.
I have a size large hand and wear a Extra Large glove. And yet I prefer the smaller grips. Especially on the snubbies. I love shooting the snubbie and especially the LCR9mm. I load up 50 moon clips the night before for a typical range session. Again recoil is no issue and I could easily go on all day long.
My favorite 22cal is the LCR22. My gosh, I have shot that gun so often it feels like a part of my hand and love shooting fast action at the range. And again Shoot it often and you will surprise yourself at how well they can perform.

If the Gun Gods came down and told me that the only gun I could own would be a 5 shot snubbie, it would not bother me one bit.And on thing I learned along the way is that if you can shoot a snubbie with proficiency you can shoot any gun well. In fact, after my son learned the basics with many firearms, I bought him a LCR22 and said "Shoot the snot out of it, it will make you a fantastic shooter. (which he now is)
May God bless the Snubbie!

Kahr 380 and LCP22
LCR9mm and LCR22

I didn’t say a person can’t be proficient. There are very good revolver shooters out there. Compared to shooting say a P365/Shield I found the LCR both harder to shoot accurately and not as pleasant. It wasn’t that it was bad, but a range session for me is 100-200 rd. With a P365 or a Shield I’m fine with that. With my LCR I wasn’t. In 22 sure I’m sure it is fine. If your experience was different fair enough. Not all experiences are the same. I can only speak for myself, my family and friends, and my observations at the ranges I go to.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I didn’t say a person can’t be proficient. There are very good revolver shooters out there. Compared to shooting say a P365/Shield I found the LCR both harder to shoot accurately and not as pleasant. It wasn’t that it was bad, but a range session for me is 100-200 rd. With a P365 or a Shield I’m fine with that. With my LCR I wasn’t. In 22 sure I’m sure it is fine. If your experience was different fair enough. Not all experiences are the same. I can only speak for myself, my family and friends, and my observations at the ranges I go to.


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I own a few Micro 9mm's and shot the 365 for 1000 rds. I find it to be a nice shooter and about the same as a Kahr 9mm or a Ruger LC9. A little snappy but not a big deal. But then again, perceived recoil has many opinions. I also think time behind the wheel of these small guns lessens perceived recoil. A certain immunity develops over time. Just my thoughts. I was not offended by your post. Many feel the same as yourself.

[Alan0354]

I think all the complains about recoil issue of small guns and grip size and all are overblown. It's all about practice and getting used to it. Of cause, shooting my 8" Colt Trouper has much less kick than my 36 snuby, but are you going to carry my Trouper out walking around?

Be that as it may, practice more, get use to it and get over it. I like my micro revolver, the Freedom Arm 22magnum, you want to talk about tiny? I have a way to shoot it comfortably, absolutely no problem. Just find the best way to hold the gun and practice and stop complaining.

The more you make it a big deal, it will become a big deal!!!



EDIT:

My wife worn out a Charter Arm snuby. I am serious, when I open the gun and clean the internal, I could see the wear particular the SA trigger part. It was 35 years ago, there had to be problem with SS on SS parts. But it worn out quite bad. Point is she shot enough of the snuby, she never once complain about the recoil. You just get used to it.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Alan0354

I think all the complains about recoil issue of small guns and grip size and all are overblown. It's all about practice and getting used to it. Of cause, shooting my 8" Colt Trouper has much less kick than my 36 snuby, but are you going to carry my Trouper out walking around?

Be that as it may, practice more, get use to it and get over it. I like my micro revolver, the Freedom Arm 22magnum, you want to talk about tiny? I have a way to shoot it comfortably, absolutely no problem. Just find the best way to hold the gun and practice and stop complaining.

The more you make it a big deal, it will become a big deal!!!

I shoot quite a bit. Recoil in general doesn’t bother me, it’s not a matter of “getting over it”. The point is recoil does have an impact on shooting. It’s easier to shoot faster and easier to deal with recoil anticipation in firearms that recoil less. This generally leads to better shooting. In a self defense situation this matters. There’s no reason to make your life more difficult in a defensive shooting if you don’t have to.

Now if you find that the recoil in your case is worth the difficulty, say you find a snubbie easier to conceal or carry than something else, then fair enough there’s a reason. But no, when I can carry a P365 or Shield and have better ballistic performance in a package that is as easy to carry for me as a j frame, has more capacity, and is easier to shoot for me, I’m not going to carry the j frame just because I should “get over it”. I’m not giving up what I see as objective advantages to match someone else’s idea of what is good. And I don’t expect anyone else to do the opposite when it comes to giving up a snub nosed revolver for what I like.

It seems everyone here has reasons why they carry what they carry. It also seems snub nosed revolvers continue to have a dedicated fan base and manufacturers continue to produce them. All seems well.


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[Alan0354]

No, I don't carry a snuby.

I don't have the new semi, but I shot a lot on my Walther PPKS which is 21oz and small like people described here, the kick back is just a bad, you sure it's not psychological that people believe semi kick less? I sure don't feel that.

I emphasize, I am not for snuby, I just through it's being unfairly casted.

Of cause, you have to take concealment into consideration, or else why are we even talk about this? If I carry my 8" Trouper, I can assure you there will be no kick back problem and it shoot where it aims. It's funny people talk about accuracy about snubies. they are not. Technology has not allow us to make a gun that is jack of all trade yet. Maybe some day.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Alan0354

No, I don't carry a snuby.

I don't have the new semi, but I shot a lot on my Walther PPKS which is 21oz and small like people described here, the kick back is just a bad, you sure it's not psychological that people believe semi kick less? I sure don't feel that.

I emphasize, I am not for snuby, I just through it's being unfairly casted.

Of cause, you have to take concealment into consideration, or else why are we even talk about this? If I carry my 8" Trouper, I can assure you there will be no kick back problem and it shoot where it aims. It's funny people talk about accuracy about snubies. they are not. Technology has not allow us to make a gun that is jack of all trade yet. Maybe some day.

The Walther PPK/S isn’t the only small pistol, just like there are other options for carrying a larger firearm than an 8” Colt Trooper (none of the comparisons or points I’ve made here have been about either of those, though I understand those are two references for yourself). Decades have passed since those firearms were released and there are now a ton of firearms on the market. Those firearms don’t all shoot the same. The only way to know what does or doesn’t work for you, in my experience, is to try it for yourself. It’s also true that there will frankly be things on which people will simply not agree. That’s why the market has options.


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[Alan0354]

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable. Like I said, my wife wore out a Charter Arm snuby, there goes to tell how much she shot that snuby, she never complained. She shot the Trouper and others, she never commented one way or the other. She just shot. Don't make it a big deal.

ALL small size guns are going to kick, I shot a lot with my little Beretta 950BS 25ACP, it kicks hard, because it's very light and very small, even if it's a 25ACP, it kicks. Should try my Freedom Arm 22 magnum!!!! They are around for their own purpose. You just have to choose for the situation.

Like I said, I am not gunhole for snubies, in fact I have not tough those snubies years before I even stop shooting, I went all semi. Just when I took them out a few days ago, I notice judging by size, weight and stopping power, we should not overlook the snubies. Just put them in the mix, not say they are superior. That's the reason I started this thread, not snubies are superior, just think they are under rated.


BTW, semi and revolvers kick very different, there is no mistake by the feel. They all kick a little different, you just get use to it by shoot a lot until you are comfortable with it. If someone just buy the gun and carry without shooting it, then..............Huston, we've got a problem!!!

[JohnKSa]

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable.

It's not about comfort, it's about physics.

More recoil means slower shot-to-shot times, and/or poorer accuracy on follow-up shots. Doesn't matter how comfortable the person is shooting the gun, they will shoot faster and/or more accurately with a gun that recoils less.

This is why some competitions have minimum calibers and/or power factor limitations. They are attempts to level the playing field.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Alan0354

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable. Like I said, my wife wore out a Charter Arm snuby, there goes to tell how much she shot that snuby, she never complained. She shot the Trouper and others, she never commented one way or the other. She just shot. Don't make it a big deal.

I don’t believe I am making it a big deal to be honest. Whether I can still shoot a snub nosed revolver and even shoot it well doesn’t mean I don’t notice the difference in recoil relative to other firearms (and no it doesn’t have to be as drastic a difference as an 8” Colt Trooper). If those differences aren’t important to you that’s your call. I have already stated multiple times that I know people can and do shoot small revolvers well. That doesn’t change why I choose to carry something else, for all the reasons I’ve mentioned earlier.

And no I didn’t get the impression you were saying snub nosed revolvers were better, you’ve explained that you meant underrated multiple times now. My response to that has been and continues to be, there may be some truth to that, but the market has a lot of choices now, there are reasons someone might prefer those other choices, and manufacturers continue to make snub nosed revolvers and the fans of those handguns continue to enjoy them. That they might not be as popular as they once were doesn’t mean they are underrated, in my opinion.


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[Alan0354]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

.......... but the market has a lot of choices now, ..................

Ha ha, not in Kalifornia. You have Ruger LC, S&W Shield..........That's about it!!! Both are like 5 oz heavier than the Ruger LCR. If we can have LCP, now you're talking. I bet it will sell like hot cakes in Kali. I would be the first one in line to buy one. Stupid Kalifornia.

I am itching to buy a smaller one, but I don't see a clear choice, LC is very close to the weight and size of my Walther PPKS, why would I want to get one like that? S&W Shield is closer to my Glock 26 than to the Walther PPKS.
Then why do I want to get another full sized 9mm if I can have only 10 rounds? It's like I want to buy, but what to buy!!

My ideal next smaller could be a Berretta TomCat 32 IF it doesn't have such BAD reputation of frame cracking.

Seacamp 32 is going to very hard to get and very expensive if you can find one, and it's only a 32ACP.

You people are lucky not living in kali.

[shafter]

People can learn to adapt to pretty much any handgun if they want to, but why would someone choose something uncomfortable when there are so many options out there?

[pete2]

I wouldn't know how long it takes to clear a failure in a revolver. I have had magazines fall out of semis, I even had the bottom of the mag fall off a couple times. Then there is the fail to chamber the first round in the mag or in the middle of the mag, double feed, premature slide lock. Broken buffer shut down. Beretta pistol accidently engage safety on reload. Magazines puke the ammo out in the mag carrier or when drawn from the carrier. I did have junk get under the extractor in a revolver once, had to shoot single action a few shots. In my experience malfunctions are at least 25/1 in favor of the revolver. And that's with full sized semis.

[Shadow9mm]

IMHO snubbies are over rated. Been there done that. Yes they are about the same size and similar in weight. However the Semi will hold more ammo, and is much faster and easier to reload. Also they will generally have a better trigger pull, lighter and shorter.

If you like your snubbie and train with it, by all means run it. But you could wind up being out gunned.

[BourbonCowboy]

Until recently, I only carried my HK VP9sk. I love that little pistol. But about a month ago, I picked up a Charter Arms Southpaw, and added a Relentless Tactical leather IWB holster. Now that's what I carry when I'm just out and about in my (small) town or in towns nearby. If I go to a larger city, I've got the HK and a T-Rex Sidecar with an extra mag.

For me, it's just a matter of comfort.

[tallball]

I've been shooting handguns regularly for 40 years.

I own small autos and small revolvers.

I prefer to carry one of my snubby revolvers, but will carry my LCPII if I need something even smaller.

I shoot revolvers better than semis, in general.

I've had far fewer malfunctions when shooting revolvers. I don' think that semiautos are inherently less reliable as machines, but they are more susceptible to problems due to ammo (and of course magazines) and limp-wristing.

[Alan0354]

Reliability is one thing revolvers shine. You know how it can jam, you know how to prevent it. It is very predictable. You know lint and stuff will jam the revolvers, if your life depends on it, it's your duty to check regularly to make sure the ratchet where the hand turn the cylinder is clear of lint, threads and other foreign stuffs. Then you are good to go.

You cannot predict when a semi auto would fail, a weak round, shaky hand(tense situation) all will cause the semi to jam.

Like I said many times already, we are not comparing snuby with semi with 17 rounds, for the weight and size, the semi are limited to compare are 7+1 round. You have to ask whether you rather have 2 more rounds or better reliability. I emphasize, if you choose to pack a bigger gun like Glock 19 that carries 17 rounds, that's a different story. Of cause if I decide to carry a bigger gun, high capacity semi will be my first choice, I can absolutely agree to that. I won't pack a big revolver.

I can say for sure all the years of shooting revolvers, I yet to have a single failure. I don't recall even a miss fire. When the gun gets really dirty from shooting, the cylinder might bind a little against the end of the barrel, but nothing you cannot fix by pulling the trigger or hammer harder. You WILL get the shot out. Besides, if your life depends on it, you BETTER make sure the gun is clean, don't pack a dirty gun. Revolver is very predictable that after you clean it, it'll be good for like 100 rounds.

[Bill DeShivs]

Snubby. Snubby.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Alan0354

Reliability is one thing revolvers shine. You know how it can jam, you know how to prevent it. It is very predictable. You know lint and stuff will jam the revolvers, if your life depends on it, it's your duty to check regularly to make sure the ratchet where the hand turn the cylinder is clear of lint, threads and other foreign stuffs. Then you are good to go.

You cannot predict when a semi auto would fail, a weak round, shaky hand(tense situation) all will cause the semi to jam.

I can say for sure all the years of shooting revolvers, I yet to have a single failure. I don't recall even a miss fire. When the gun gets really dirty from shooting, the cylinder might bind a little against the end of the barrel, but nothing you cannot fix by pulling the trigger or hammer harder. You WILL get the shot out. Besides, if your life depends on it, you BETTER make sure the gun is clean, don't pack a dirty gun. Revolver is very predictable that after you clean it, it'll be good for like 100 rounds.

While I agree there is a simplicity to revolvers, it’s not like how a semiautomatic pistol will jam is a mystery. There are failures to extract, failures to eject, failures to fire, and failures to feed. Many of these can be solved with a tap/rack.

One of the points above seems to be that if you maintain the revolver well it will function. That’s also true of semiautomatics. Cleaning and proper maintenance will reduce the frequency of malfunctions. That’s true with most mechanical items. And frankly I think you’re selling revolvers short by saying good for 100 rd. My S&W Model 19 certainly has gone hundreds of rounds between cleanings. I’ve had semiautomatics go a thousand rounds between cleanings. I’ve used semiautomatics in defensive firearm courses where we are shooting ~500 rd a day for two days in a row. One of the gentlemen in that class was using a SIG P238, a rather small pistol. Firearms can be surprisingly reliable.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

I carry a number of firearms to include the Snubbie, the Pocket 380's and the Mico 9mm's. I do not carry the Snubbie because of the reliability. All my guns are reliable as much as reliable can be. I have one 380 Pocket gun that has endured thousands of rounds without one single failure (other than a few primer failures on cheap reloads) and I trust it as much as I trust my snubbie. That said, any gun made can have a failure.
One poster on another forum keeps posting over and over that People only choose small guns and snubbies because of convenience and not practical purposes. Well IMO all pistols, revolvers are tools of convenience. We all have life experiences and those experiences dictate what we carry. And there is no need to throw out the convenience factor and carry something that is not, simply because some on the internet condemn your choice. I will NOT carry any firearm that is uncomfortable day in and day out.
I know my limitations, know my guns limitations. And I train and practice diligently to become proficient with what I do carry. It is a waste of time to convince others what they should or not EDC. What is good for them is not good for me. And to be honest, I do not care what they carry.

Shooting firearms proficiently is a slow train coming. There are no shortcuts, you have to put in the Time, the money (and it is expensive) and be willing to make sacrifices to get there. I started off with large guns and semi autos and as the years went on, I moved to smaller guns which I now shoot very often (before the crap hit the fan). They work for me, and I carry them daily. A large heavy gun would not. But it works for others and that is great. My hat is off to them.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by Alan0354

My ideal next smaller could be a Berretta TomCat 32 IF it doesn't have such BAD reputation of frame cracking.

Had a Tomcat, but it went down the road. If memory holds, the trigger didn't release until almost touching the frame. Any follow through threw the poi off, even at close range. Might not matter if going for the belly button.

Might consider trying one before buying if possible, or it may fit the purpose anyway.

[Carmady]

I looked at an Armslist Tomcat in a parking lot, and the chamber end of the barrel could move about 1/4" - 3/8" left to right when it was pivoted forward. I passed. The seller said that was normal, but I've had a few of the .25's and a .22 and none was like that.

[Alan0354]

Originally Posted by Carmady

I looked at an Armslist Tomcat in a parking lot, and the chamber end of the barrel could move about 1/4" - 3/8" left to right when it was pivoted forward. I passed. The seller said that was normal, but I've had a few of the .25's and a .22 and none was like that.

No, that's not normal. I have 3 Berreta 950BS which have the same tip up barrel. It does NOT move side to side.

Off the topic, those little 950s are very reliable. I only have problem with Blazer ammo that the shell won't clear the chamber. I shot FMJ ammo, over 1000 rounds through the 3 guns, other than one dead primer, not a single failure with the brass shells. Later, after I got a little into gun smithing, I polished the chamber a little, even the Brazer worked fine. Talk about small, this is a dimension smaller than the snubby or the 380s. I even made a hoster that when I put it in, it fits in my back pocker and feel like a thicker wallet!!!

Yes I agree with Carl The Floor Walker, there's no right or wrong gun to carry. You carry what you feel comfortable with. You want to carry a Glock 19, good for you. People like me, convenience is important, I don't intend to go out to a fight, if I carry one, it would be "just in case of one million to one". The Barreta 950 serves me well, even the snubby is too bulky. Later on, I even switch to a Freedom Arm 22 magnum. Those little thing is more powerful than people think, I actually Chronograph them. The 1" barrel clocked 1,100fps, the 1 3/4" clocked an amazing 1,300fps. I won't joke around about those little thing. Now, that does NOT translate to NAA mini revolvers. I like the Freedom Arm so much I bought a 3" NAA 22 magnum, it clocked a little less than 1,100fps...........For a 3" barrel, that's a shame.

I think it's because the gap between the barrel and the cylinder is wider on the NAA than the Freedom Arms even though it's in spec. Wider gap leak gas, must be the reason the bullet are slower. That's the thing about revolvers, the barrel to cylinder gap is important, too wide, you leak gas, too narrow, it will bind after shooting like 100 rounds. You want it to be tight, then you have to clean more often.

To me, even if I have only a Freedom Arm, it's better than a knife. I did practice shooting with it, it's not hard once you find the right way to shoot it, I can shoot with one hand easily. Practice is the key.

Too bad, Freedom Arm stopped producing those mini revolvers before 2000. I have 4 and I am happy.