.45 super anyone?

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by silvermane_1

If you're referring to the 45 Win Mag no, it's not, the 45 Win Mag is basically a semi-auto 454 Casull, 45 Super is basically a semi-auto 45 Colt, where as the 45 ACP is a semi-auto 45 Scholfield.

The hottest factory load for 45 Super (Underwood 185 gr) tops out at 694 ft-lbs.

whereas Underwood's 45 Winchester Magnum is around the 1300 ft-lbs mark. So roughly double the 45 Super.

There is another conversion for 45 ACP pistols, the conversion to 460 Rowland, with a muzzle energy that tops at 1019 ft-lbs. So the 460 Rowland is a bit closer to the 45 Win Mag, but still a good 20% behind in the energy curve. 460 Rowland converted semi-auto pistols can still fire regular 45 ACP ammo, but the downside is that their barrel needs to be ported. This is not a requirement for 45 Super, though.

[Dave T]

If you're referring to the 45 Win Mag no, it's not, the 45 Win Mag is basically a semi-auto 454 Casull, 45 Super is basically a semi-auto 45 Colt, where as the 45 ACP is a semi-auto 45 Scholfield.

Well said. A good explanation, even with the misspelling. (smile)

Dave

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by Dave T

Well said. A good explanation, even with the misspelling. (smile)

Dave

Which misspelling?, refering?, it was more of a typo.

[darkgael]

He may have been referring to the extra L in Schofield. Could also be a typo.

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by darkgael

He may have been referring to the extra L in Schofield. Could also be a typo.

That how Scholfield was spelled when I did the search for it.

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by Pistoler0

The hottest factory load for 45 Super (Underwood 185 gr) tops out at 694 ft-lbs.

whereas Underwood's 45 Winchester Magnum is around the 1300 ft-lbs mark. So roughly double the 45 Super.

There is another conversion for 45 ACP pistols, the conversion to 460 Rowland, with a muzzle energy that tops at 1019 ft-lbs. So the 460 Rowland is a bit closer to the 45 Win Mag, but still a good 20% behind in the energy curve. 460 Rowland converted semi-auto pistols can still fire regular 45 ACP ammo, but the downside is that their barrel needs to be ported. This is not a requirement for 45 Super, though.

That's my point there Pistoler0, the 45 Super is more akin to an 45 Colt/Long Colt or 45 cal with 357 mag "power".

[Geezerbiker]

Now you guys have gotten me interested. Now I think I need a .45 Super...

Tony

[JERRYS.]

what is needed (parts changes) to safety shoot 45 super starting from a stock Glock 21? not what is preferred, or what you rather, or like.... but the bare minimum to convert over?

thanks

[darkgael]

Silver: Understood. You got bad info from that search.

One thing (another thing, a minor thing) about the .45 Super that diminished my interest in it was having to pay closer attention to retrieving my brass after shooting. (I know.... lazy.). This was even more of an issue with the .400 CorBon....a cartridge that I liked more than the Super.
Thinking about it now.....I may go and give the .400 another try. .357 mag ballistics from a 1911. Not quite 10mm, but very close with bullets at 135 grains. And at lower pressures.
I have tried the Rowland....lots of fun but close to .44 mag only with the lighter bullets.

Pete

[Lohman446]

As ease of cartridge error comes into play I am going to introduce another round to this topic that really caught my fancy. In the end I went with 10MM but the .40 SUPER round for those who reload is really interesting. Think of it as the 357 SIG all grown up (a .45 Super necked down to .40) it was, at one point, destined for that but things do not always go as planned.

No way are you accidentally loading the wrong cartridge. Of course this also means you don't have the ease of "conversion" of simply dropping in a standard .45 either.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

what is needed (parts changes) to safety shoot 45 super starting from a stock Glock 21? not what is preferred, or what you rather, or like.... but the bare minimum to convert over?

thanks

Jerrys, for my Glock 21 (3rd generation) I got:

- a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and a 22 lbs recoil spring which I got from glockstore.
- some ammo mags may have springs that are too weak and thus don't push the round in fast enough. So you may need to buy a heavier mag spring from Wolff. In my case, I put 2 mag springs in my 13 round mag that I use with 45 Super.
- You may need a barrel. I got mine from KKM, because they are fully supported, but apparently Wolf barrels are also good for 45 Super and cheaper (around $99).

If you don't want to spend the money on a barrel and you want to use the Glock one, then instead of 45 Super (available from Underwood) buy .450 SMC ammo (from DoubleTap). The brass cases are a much sturdier for .450 SMC, and barrel support is a bit less of an issue.

But anyway, most people say a barrel with better case support than the Glock barrel is needed.

I shoot regular 45 ACP and 45 Super or .450 SMC from my Glock 21 with no issue, and I have done it for years. The only problem I had with FTF was solved by doubling the spring in the mag.

For those who are apprehensive about trying the 45 Super, keep in mind that 45 ACP is an old cartridge that was developed with much lower chamber pressures (21,000 psi) than modern cartridges. 45 Super only brings the chamber pressure of the 45 to 28,000 psi, and 450 SMC to 32,000 psi. That is still a bit less than 9mm (34,000 psi) and considerably lower pressure than 10mm (37,500 psi).

Now the Glock 20 is exactly the same pistol as the Glock 21. So there is no reason why the Glock 21 with the right barrel couldn't handle the same energy and pressure as the Glock 20.



BOTTOMLINE:

Bare MINIMUM for 450 SMC (Doubletap): a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and a 22 lbs recoil spring (from glockstore): $60
https://www.glockstore.com/Tungsten-...ecoil-Spring_3


Bare MINIMUM for 45 Super (Underwood, Buffalo Bore): a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and 22 lbs recoil spring (from glockstore) $60, and a Wolf barrel: $99.95
https://www.glockstore.com/Tungsten-...ecoil-Spring_3
https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8152

Extra mag spring probably needed for proper feeding of rounds. $8
https://www.gunsprings.com/GLOCK%20%...ID5/dID116#148

[Pistoler0]

The reason why with 45 Super you may need a new barrel that has better case support than Glock's, and why with 450 SMC you don't, is that with 45 Super the issue is with the strength of the brass casing for the round.

45 Super uses the same brass casing as regular 45 ACP, but it loads the round to a higher pressure. Therefore some reloaders report that casings have a tendency to show signs of overpressure such as bulging and smileys. But again the issue is with the casings used.

Factory loads for 45 Super such as Underwood's and Buffalo Bore of course use brass casing that is sturdy enough to handle the slightly higher chamber pressure of the Super.

450 SMC is a different thing altogether, because its brass casing has been developed from a rifle casing which is much much sturdier and has more brass at the case's base. The round and its case was developed from the start to be fired from 45 ACP pistols:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...ive-cartridge/
Quoting: "what you’re probably wondering is what you have to do to shoot .450 SMC in your .45 ACP. Well, a .450 SMC cartridge can be fired in any .45 ACP handgun. However—and this is a big however—it should only be fired in full-size .45 ACP handguns that have a +P rating. (A 20- to 22-pound recoil spring in your favorite 5-inch 1911, or a 21- to 23-pound spring in a Glock.)" - Richard Mann

Another read about 450 SMC:
https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/450-smc-ammo/


Notice the smaller rifle primer in the 450 SMC round, which allows for the walls in the brass casing to be thicker so the round is better suited for the higher pressures.

I shoot both 45 Super and 450 SMC out of my Glock 21.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...ridge_45-super

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...y&path=303_354


BTW I LOVE these two rounds and I post so much about them because I am hoping more shooters will embrace them and with lots of users, maybe their price will come down! : )

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by darkgael

Silver: Understood. You got bad info from that search.

One thing (another thing, a minor thing) about the .45 Super that diminished my interest in it was having to pay closer attention to retrieving my brass after shooting. (I know.... lazy.). This was even more of an issue with the .400 CorBon....a cartridge that I liked more than the Super.
Thinking about it now.....I may go and give the .400 another try. .357 mag ballistics from a 1911. Not quite 10mm, but very close with bullets at 135 grains. And at lower pressures.
I have tried the Rowland....lots of fun but close to .44 mag only with the lighter bullets.

Pete

he he, I know what you mean.

With 45 Super my brass lands 8 to 12 ft away from me, at my 4 o'clock. Apparently this is ok. If much further it means the recoil spring is too weak and probably the pistol frame being battered.

[SATRP]

I've thought about a .45 Super, and rethought it.

I couldn't answer one simple question: why?

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by SATRP

I've thought about a .45 Super, and rethought it.

I couldn't answer one simple question: why?

Ah, yes, SATRP, I am with you, and the round is more expensive than regular 45 ACP too!. For me it is only because I live in Colorado, and in CO in order to legally hunt big game with a pistol you need to use a round that generates 550 ft-lbs of energy at 50 yards.

45 Super does that and so does 10mm out of a semi-auto.
For example it would be illegal in CO to finish off a badly wounded deer or elk with a 9mm.

Why not own a 10mm then? Becs my significant other limits me to 1 handgun, and I need something versatile that is also cheap to shoot and allowed in competition. Glock 21 fits the criteria and with 45 Super I can hunt with it. For me, 45 Super substitutes for 10mm.

So anyway, that is the only reason. Also maybe.. better for defense from big critters in the woods?

But yeah, for EDC its not needed, I load regular 45 ACP for that.

[JERRYS.]

I looked up the ballistics and 45 super is only about 100 fps faster than the 45 acp +p, to me that's not enough to justify the added cost.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

I looked up the ballistics and 45 super is only about 100 fps faster than the 45 acp +p, to me that's not enough to justify the added cost.

Yeah well, marketing is always a factor to consider, and the difference in price may or may not be worth it.

You are right that for instance Underwood 45 +p 185gr have a speed of 1200fps, 592 ft-lbs energy, and sells for $19.50 box of 20:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18786995929145

... and Underwood 45 Super 185gr have a speed of 1300fps, 694 ft-lbs energy, and sells for $22.50 for a box of 20.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785711456313

So the Super is 15 cents more per round that the +p, and gives 100 ft-lbs extra energy.

DoubleTap gives you a tad more, 1350fps - 749 ft./lbs, but it is even more expensive! $28 for a box of 20.

For me personally, the reason why it makes sense is that with 45 Super I am legal for big game hunting in Colorado (without having to buy a separate 10mm gun) which requires 550 ft-bs energy at 50 yards.

For uses other than hunting and defense in the woods, I do not know how much sense it would make.
But again I suppose that the point is that I can fire cheap 45 ACP as my regular round from my pistol, and then IF I need to, I can shoot 45 Super from time to time when hunting or out in the mountains. So my opinion, consider 45 Super / 450 SMC if you do not want to invest in a 10mm gun and you need more power out of a semi-auto for use in the wild.

[HighValleyRanch]

If you reload, .45 super does not cost anything more than .45 acp.
Well, you might add the slight cost of thick .45 super brass @ .29 each which is reuseable,
or a smidgen more powder, but pretty insignificant overall.

Oh, and the fully supported barrel, steel non captured guiderod, and extra strong recoil spring, and magazine springs, but what the hey, you now can shoot from powderpuff loads to 10mm equvalent loads all in the same pistol.

SImilar to Pistolero one gun situtation, we are only allowed 3 guns on our permit with which we have to qualify. It makes more sense to have one gun that is capable of many senarios from practice to SD to woods carry than multiple guns.

SImilar to qualifying with a .38/357, I can carry with either caliber, qualifying with .45 acp allows me to carry with .45 acp, .45 acp +P or .45 super. I cannot carry with .45 acp and 10mm conversion on the same qualified gun, nor a 10mm with .40 conversion. So sometimes .45 super does make sense. Not that one has to justify their needs or wants to anyone else of course!

[Pistoler0]

10mm killer? Head-to-head with 450 SMC / 45 Super

And:
Is 10mm dead? 450 SMC vs 10mm head to head

Again, 45 Super and 450 SMC are similar rounds that can be fired out of a 45 ACP semi-auto (with proper recoil spring).

[HighValleyRanch]

So SMC is just Super brass that has a small rifle primer?

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

So SMC is just Super brass that has a small rifle primer?

Yes, but not exactly.

My understanding is that SMC brass has a small rifle primer so that the walls of the case can be made thicker than those of regular 45 ACP or even 45 Super rounds. That means a stronger case.
It’s a .308 rifle case cut down. That way the 45 SMC can better cope with the higher pressures. On the other hand the parent case for the 45 Super is the .45 Winchester Magnum.

From left to right, Underwood's 45 Super (silver casing), DoubleTap 450 SMC, and .308 Win for reference.

Aledgedly SMC, short magnum cartridge, originally stood for "suck my .... " due to a trademark dispute.


Post from Fernando Coelho, one of the developers, at gunhub:
------------------------------------------------------------
"The 450 SMC came from a meeting at NASGW (can’t recall the exact year) with a buyer from a major distributor. They had been buying .45 Super ammo from Triton and when we discontinued producing the ammo, they were concerned because they still had plenty of Springfield Armory 1911s set up for the .45 Super. The buyer was aware of the trademark issues with the .45 Super and asked us if we could come out with a cartridge with a different name. One of my employees said, “yeah we can call it the suck my c**k”. After everyone got a chuckle out of that, I said, “how about the SMC?” The folks at STI already had a 1911 called the 450 that could handle the .45 Super, so we called it the 450 SMC. To make the name politically correct, we told everyone SMC stood for Short Magnum Cartridge. Those in the “inner circle” knew the real name.

This did give us a chance to improve upon the .45 Super cartridge case by using a small pistol primer pocket. Primer flow was a constant nuisance with the .45 Super and the smaller primer pocket would help alleviate that issue. In the end, we were able to squeeze more velocity out of the 450 SMC than we could with the .45 Super. "

https://gunhub.com/gun-talk/49832-45-super.html
-------------------------------------------------------------


You can read about differences between 45 Super and 450 SMC here:

https://archive.ph/20130124230052/ht...n-989.9-989.12

[HighValleyRanch]

LOL,
I asked:

So SMC is just Super brass that has a small rifle primer?

it states in that article...
"The .450 SMC is basically a .45 Super with a small primer pocket"

[Pistoler0]

ah, LOL ok.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Pistoler0

ah, LOL ok.

A small rifle primer is recommended, and was the primer used in the original loads.

AKA, the 450 SMC was designed to use a small rifle primer.

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by darkgael

Silver: Understood. You got bad info from that search.

One thing (another thing, a minor thing) about the .45 Super that diminished my interest in it was having to pay closer attention to retrieving my brass after shooting. (I know.... lazy.). This was even more of an issue with the .400 CorBon....a cartridge that I liked more than the Super.
Thinking about it now.....I may go and give the .400 another try. .357 mag ballistics from a 1911. Not quite 10mm, but very close with bullets at 135 grains. And at lower pressures.
I have tried the Rowland....lots of fun but close to .44 mag only with the lighter bullets.

Pete

I'm "gearing up" to shoot both 45 Super and 400 Cor-Bon, they're both interesting and awesome calibers, however the max is 185gr. bullets with 400 Cor-Bon there Pete, now there is the 40 Super, but it's almost mandatory for a 40 Super to have a comp or magna ported barrel.