Hunters Unethical?

[Eli Cash]

"Getting close to make a ethical shot is harder than takin' a picture with a telephoto lens."

My posted image was with a 60mm lens from ~25m.

I was able to get closer until the family "walked" away. the buffer was about 15m…I can group a CD size circle with my 9mm XDs from 15m….

I don't think these sheep are playing "hunting".


Next…

EC

[Nathan]

Simply stated. As I do it, hunting is ethical. Actually, this year is going to be really hard on my family....we'll survive, but we loved getting out some deer meat and making a meal.

Well, I did not get my trophy doe this year. Yes, I'm thrilled to shoot a big doe. Every year, it is a struggle to get one due to the guides buying up the private land and the public land being as crowded as a shopping mall.

I can agree some with your assessment. I hunt for meat. We eat it. The hide goes to a recycler, the guts to the land, the bones probably go in the trash.

On the other hand, I find myself now competing with people willing to spend $5000 per year to get a deer....sometimes tens of thousands to block me from getting a doe from their prized woods. Then there are the high fence operations....they run like a ranch. Yes, that is shooting the dog as it were. Since the states own the animals, aren't these high fence deer "stolen" or is there a state which allows their acquisition legally? I'm guessing stolen. If you put up an 8' fence around 1000 acres, are you shooing the state's deer out before you lock the gate? I think not.

If you kill an animal in the back country, it ought to be illegal not to get it out. I can see how it happens though. Places like MT and WY are big country.

It sounds like I'm blaming video games, but really I blame TV. They show too much high dollar guided hunting. Some of these guys are killing 50 deer a year! They're not eating that. They might eat some and I hope they donate the rest, but who knows, wealth often fogs ethics.

My dad is a real hunter. He finds a spot to go, he develops a game plan and then executes it. He can "feel" the animals around him. Our hunting party was afraid to let him leave us. He would be dragging an animal everytime we did! He also helps others get an animal. I've watched it for years and I'm still amazed. I don't know how he does it. I guess it is because he has live outdoors in MT since he was a kid every weekend and vacation day for 65 years. He learned from his dad. I guess I should have paid more attention. He can tell you more about a deer looking at it's poop than I'll ever know about deer. This same guy can catch 10 fish an hour and let then all go! He's killed an 8 PT or bigger deer almost every year without ever trophy hunting. Just hard work and time living with the deer.

The idea of buying a hunting lease is too much for either of us to consider. It is just wrong. I don't want to be a worse hunter with better guides, land and equipment.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Eli Cash

Each and ALL of your individual arguments are subjective. There is no empirical truth here.

Then what's to be worked up about? If there is no truth, no morality involved, then who cares?

You do what you want and every one else will do what they want, no body is right or wrong. Why bother to even formulate an opinion on a matter with no correct or incorrect answers?

[Eli Cash]

@Nathan.

I can not argue with you at all. Thank you for your post.

EC

[huntinaz]

Once again saying I have no experience is folly; I just don't kill…

You have no experience killing, which is what your rant was about. Your experience backpacking lacks everything to do with killing, which is what your beef is about. From my standpoint as a backpacker and a hunter, the folly is yours for coming to conclusions from assumptions based on the part which you aren't privy to. You've got lots of the one hand and none of the other, and are drawing a conclusion with both.

I don't spend 70 days in the field, but I've spend plenty of time out there. I estimate I logged ~20 days last year. Used to spend a lot more time in the field in college, when I had more free time. Back then, I was only hunting maybe 10% of the time I spent afield. That percentage is higher now because I can't get out as much. Now that my kids are coming into hiking age, I hope to spend more time out there in general.

[Eli Cash]

@Brian

I think I'm less worked up than others here.

Once again it's a combination of my world view and expereinces that have influenced my opinion. I'm sure we can all agree certain aspects of life get under our skin and we kind of lash out. I'm just going through one of those phases as re; hunting.

Note I'm not calling for hunting bans or any law changes as I am truly in the dark on many of the legal aspects of hunting.

Just trying to get some hunters to hear me out and that you have.

I really can't say how much I appreciate ya'll engaging me in the discussions.

I'd be proud to call any of you my friends.

EC

[buck460XVR]

Suffice to say I am a more complete outdoorsman and have a better understanding of wildlife than the vast majority that have responded here.

I'm thinkin' it must be hard for you to find a hat that fits, eh?

I was able to get closer until the family "walked" away.

Since you are such a proficient outdoorsman and expert on wild game I find it strange you would refer to a bachelor group as a "family".

The internet is such a wonderful place. Folks can be anything they want or as good as they claim without having to be honest or prove any of it. IME, most of those folks with high degrees of skill are quite modest on the internet. Those that aren't like to stretch things a tad. Then there's those folks that come just to promote a controversy. I thought at first you had some sort of legitimacy and gave you the respect to voice you opinion and tried to glean some sort of sense from your posts. Now it is evident that you are here create controversy so you can feel some sort of superiority. You came to our house and urinated on the carpet. Don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

[Eli Cash]

@Huntaz:
"You have no experience killing, which is what your rant was about."

I respectfully disagree; the rant is about human and animal interactions. I could have killed numerous animals numerous times, I chose not to. I often carry a 9mm or .45, more for 2 legs in So AZ/TX. (drug runners with AK's…seen 'em near Nogales/Arivaca) so certainly have the means.

It goes back to the posters analogy that since I have not driven drunk I can't comment on drunk drivers or be against it. Huntaz you spend time doing both so perhaps more qualified to comment. Do your interactions with animals vary wether you are armed/hunting or just hiking? Perhaps animals can get the vibes and underlying intentions.

Dunno…

EC

[HiBC]

OP,pardon me,I vastly overestimated your powers of reading comprehension.I will try to simplify it so you can understand.

The process of farming the sunflowers killed everything else on the miles and miles of clean fields.Clean corners.Crop dusting,pest and weed control.

Farm machinery generates "collateral casualties"

I'm not bashing the farmer.We all eat pretty well because they provide.

If you have a field of any veggie crop,the biodiversity that was there before the crop is competition which is eliminated or mitigated.

That is reality.

Gentle bears?My former spouse has the scars from a bear who chomped down on her through our tent in Alaska.If I believed as you do,we would be a dead couple.Instead,the bear is dead.That is my experience.But,hey,I invite you to follow the path of ...Was it Timothy Treadwell?Mr Bear Man?If you check you tube,you can find a recording...he did not have time to get the lense cap off,but there is audio of him and his girlfriend screaming as they are torn apart by a sweet bear friend.Experience.

Well,I'm hungry...time for meat.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Eli Cash

Once again it's a combination of my world view and expereinces that have influenced my opinion. I'm sure we can all agree certain aspects of life get under our skin and we kind of lash out. I'm just going through one of those phases as re; hunting.

There are things that annoy me because they effect me personally. For instance, I can't stand when people call my pizzeria and don't have the foggiest idea what they want to buy or they want "That sauce you make." on their wings, as if there's only 1 or 2 instead of 30. However, I couldn't care less if they do that to somebody else's shop because it's not a moral issue and it doesn't effect me.

There are also moral issues that upset me greatly without actually effecting me directly. I'm bothered because moral violations should bother moral people.

Since you don't believe that there is any objective moral criteria involved and these hunters are not effecting you in any way, why would you have any opinion whatsoever, say nothing of being bothered enough by it to join a forum for the singular purpose of complaining about it?

This would be like me joining a gardening forum to complain about people making genetic crosses of petunias. I don't do it, there's no moral issue, I don't even know anything about it, except I think it might be easy so I go complain about people who do it, just because I don't think they should do something that's so easy. Why would I do that?

[Eli Cash]

@buck460XVR

I guess I came off that way but please put it in context, I was being accused of having little or no experience. If you assume me a liar or blowhard that's cool and that takes care of this thread.

EC

[Eli Cash]

@HiBC

Are you serious!?

"Farm machinery generates "collateral casualties"" LOL

LOL x10

EC

[Eli Cash]

@Brian

"Since you don't believe that there is any objective moral criteria involved and these hunters are not effecting you in any way, why would you have any opinion whatsoever, say nothing of being bothered enough by it to join a forum for the singular purpose of complaining about it?"

I think you may be taking your editing powers too far. I never mentioned "objective moral criteria" I said "empirical truths". To determine such truths would demand veering the discussion into much more philosophical arenas.

You are the one who brought up ethics..I was perfectly happy with "jack wagons".

I hope y'all are smiling and not taking this all to seriously. I fear a couple of you may need some bran to force the red meat through the ol' colon though

EC

[Mainah]

Eli, lobster fishing is a big industry here in Maine. I've seen lobsters up close when I dove, although I didn't take any pictures. Is harvesting lobster ethical?

In your vast backcountry experience did you wear any leather? Maybe on boots, a belt, or one of your holsters. If so was that ethical? If not was what it took to create the oil that made up the alternative product ethical?

And what about the work behind mining the metals in the computer you're using, or the factory where it was made. Was all that production ethical?

[SHR970]

Eli Cash wrote:

So this is not supported by the "culling the herd" environmental need…I assume…

Incorrect assumption. In many east coast areas they have a real problem with deer in suburban areas. From time to time it even makes national news that some township has hired professional hunters to shoot deer in town due to too many car accidents or other incidents involving the animals.

In many parts of the country there is a serious problem with over population of feral pigs. They can't kill them fast enough and these critters are doing serious harm to the ecosystem.

Now on to some of your other points.

For the last 20 years my deer hunting has been in the Angeles and San Bernadino National Forests. For the last 12 years I have been allowed to hunt from a friends property in the SBNF. I am hunting in zones that have less than a 5% success rate as posted by CDFG. There is no "easy to slaughter bambi" hunting in these areas. I have seen deer wander through the property year round, but when season comes around they become scarce.

I have seen quite a few hunters that seem to have a reading comprehension problem. They can't seem to read the No Trespassing Signs posted around the property. It took me a few seasons the get these folks to understand that they were not welcome. Armed with a 30-06 and 357 (my usual hunting compliment), I have confronted several reading impaired armed individuals and explained to them their need to leave. I have not needed to escalate the situation to the point of deadly force. I know they can hurt me and they know I can hurt them.

You stated something to the order of that you would like to pop a few 9mm rounds off over the hunters heads. Well I will tell you that it is a good thing that you haven't. If I have someone cracking rounds off at me I know what the final result will be and it won't be pretty. Chances are better than even money that done to other folks the result will be the same. Only a fool would invite deadly force to be visited on them by doing what you suggested. I lay 1000-1 odds against your surviving such nonsense.

As to handgun hunters, people who choose to use hand guns (which many of them use single shot guns like a TC) do so due to the challenge. Quite frankly, most if not all of these folks are up to the challenge. Not only are they good shots, but they also chose their shots better than many and will pass up shots that are marginal or too far. As to another posters comment about 200 yard shots with a 357; he is correct. Several friends and I have done shooting games involving 2 liter soda bottles at 150-250 yards at differing elevations with our 357 revolvers. Use a scoped TC with the more powerful rounds and 200 yards is no problem.

I don't care for trophy hunting. But as long as the trophy hunters do it within the confines of the regulations of where they are hunting I have no quarrel with them.

I do not tolerate poachers and I also do not tolerate hypocrites. I once had a guy giving me lip about killing Bambi while he was chewing on a cheese burger. I informed him that I do not have a problem killing my dinner. I've also had the pleasure of having several vegetarians giving my guff about killing animals for their flesh. I happily pointed out to them that the animal I was eating could possibly be the same animal that gave its life for their Birkenstocks (TM). I happen to know quite a few vegetarians and I respect their choice. Respect does not mean we agree but it does mean that our disagreements remain civil. It is hard to be a true vegan as it requires that a person forgo all animal derived goods.

And most of us here do not have jobs that require that we spend 70+ days in the field across several states. With zone season overlap I have a six week window to get any deer hunting in. Within that six weeks, I have to schedule my time off so I can get real time in the field and not just play weekend warrior. Unfortunately so do an awful lot of hunters.

[Kreyzhorse]

this is kindof a bit overly critical of criticism. that is like saying until you've become an elected official, any criticism of president Obama has no merit. until you drink and drive you have no room to criticize drunk drivers. there is always room for outside criticism. now I will second that actually participating in a task can give a lot more incite than what you read in magazines and see on the outdoor channel but to say that observational criticism has no merit is completely wrong.

Just because you can criticize doesn't mean that there is merit behind your criticism, especially if you have no experience with what you are condemning.

I vote, I understand the issues, I criticize the President. I drive and I also drink so I criticize drunk drivers. I don't swim, but I criticize Michael Phelps swimming technique....

Just because you have an opinion on something that doesn't mean it adds value to the discussion.

[SHR970]

"Farm machinery generates "collateral casualties"" LOL

LOL x10

Moles, shrews, rabbits, gophers, just to name a few. Not all critters spend their entire life above ground.

Please, let's be intellectually honest here. Spend some time in the Ca. Central Valley and examine the lack of biodiversity in the ag. fields. Herbivores are not tolerated in huge swaths of land.

[Kreyzhorse]

I respectfully disagree; the rant is about human and animal interactions. I could have killed numerous animals numerous times, I chose not to

Could have and actually doing it are two entirely different things. If you don't understand the difference, try it.

[huntinaz]

Do your interactions with animals vary wether you are armed/hunting or just hiking? Perhaps animals can get the vibes and underlying intentions.

There's no hard and fast rule, other than they are animals and you never know what they are going to do. I can without a doubt tell you that I have seen WAY more mature "trophy class" animals out dicking around than I have during a hunting season with a rifle in my hands. I don't kow if the animals sense it but I kindly doubt it. I attribute it to more people in the woods during that time, but it's a guess. More activity, they become more observant and tolerate less human contact. They act differently depending on the time of year. Bull elk during the rut is differnt than bull elk after the rut etc.

An example. I couldn't recall the number of mature bucks I've seen when hiking or scouting, and could have killed a great many of them. Often times they stand and stare after I jump them, or they stand broadside and keep eating as I watch them from my vehicle. I'd say most of the large deer I've seen in the off season I could have killed. But, I can count on one finger the number of mature bucks I've seen during hunting season that stood there and let me shoot them. One. I bet I've been on 15 deer hunts. I've seen some other good bucks while hunting but they've already seen me and are booking it the other way.

What I do konw is that MY attitude and mindset are different when I'm hunting than when I'm hiking. I feel more a part of it all when I'm stalking as opposed to watching. I feel a better sense of accomplishment when I bring home meat and antlers than I do when I just bring home a picture. My hands aren't shaking and my heart isn't pounding when I'm holding a camera but when I'm holding a rifle I have to make a conscious effort to call down enough to make a good shot. It's all gravy, but what makes me a part of it is being a player and not just an observer.

Hiking and hunting are two different ball games brother. I say I use more skill when doing the latter, admittedly sometimes it's easier than others. Depends on what the animal is doing.

Bottom line. If you weren't on the hunt, and didn't see all the events leading up to the picture, how can you pass judgement on it? You don't know what's behind that jack-wagon's smile unless you were there

[Eli Cash]

@Kreyzhorse:

"Could have and actually doing it are two entirely different things. If you don't understand the difference, try it"

One needn't have experiences to understand they would not enjoy them. I KNOW I wouldn't like a homosexual experience and prefer not to try it.

If you are more adventurous have at it.

EC

That was too easy...

[ligonierbill]

I quit arguing with MSBs (Morally Superior Beings) long ago. But I've never been called a "Jack Wagon" before. That's a new one. Being from Pittsburgh, I've been called a...well, you wouldn't understand if you weren't from there. I hunt, I kill (not as often as I'd like), and I eat. Don't like it? OK. You don't have to. Think I'm unethical? OK. I don't care what you think. But a word of advice. If you want to insult hunters in Pennsylvania, think of something else to call them. Jack Wagon? They may think it's a new pickup!

[Eli Cash]

@Huntaz:

"It's all gravy, but what makes me a part of it is being a player and not just an observer."

My point again, the animal is not aware of "playing" the game. Although I have seen herds being stalked by coyotes that seemed rather non chalant… never saw the coyote attack so perhaps not a predator/prey relationship. More wishful thinking on coyotes part.

Re; the "jack wagons smile" (I'm gonna name my country band this!) you are correct, I assumed but back to my experiences with Native Americans it lacks respect IMO. Just how I see it.

EC

[2damnold4this]

Let's see:

.

...To a one of hundreds of such encounters I have had over the years, the animal is gentle and curious. Even the bears have been cool. The encounters usually last 10-30 seconds sometime more before animal looses interest and moves on or continues to graze. I can't recall one bolting almost ever. Sure I've made undue noise and scared more away and just hear them or catch a hoof in the air as it clears a hurdle but again I'm making noise!

My point is where is the challenge?...

and:

...Anyway it just bugs me, especially when I see hand gun hunters. You have to be such a danged good shot to drop an animal with a hand gun and the goal as I understand it is one shot=down...

So, the claims are that hunting is unethical because it's easy to get close to an animal but handgun hunting is more unethical because it requires getting close.

[Deja vu]

Is a dog unethical when it kills a Gopher? I know im in the minority here but I don't see humans any different than other animals other than I belong to the group of animals called humans. Humans evolved from the same stuff all the other animals did.

Do I hunt? Yes but I am a predator that is what predators do. I have eyes in the front of my head. My young are born weak and need care. I am sure there are other things as well but I just got back from hunting and I am a bit drained.

Man can try to change nature but in the long run it is nature that will change the man. In the end it matters very little what we do. There will still be life on this rock we call earth millions of years after humans have gone extinct. Humans are in a boom phase right now, but eventually nature will grow tired of us and introduce something to control our population such as disease or starvation. Our key asset we have over other animals is our intellect. But dont think that will save us in the end. Nature gave use this gift and she knows what she is doing.

[Old Stony]

I'm not too sure what a "Jack Wagon" is either, but I think if I did, I might take offense at being compared to one.
This whole post has me confused as I take it as possibly an affront to my woods skills and reasons to hunt. I find no reason for me to apologize to anyone for hunting and refuse to pander to anyone for my actions just because they think they can flit around the woods with the animals and be "one" with nature.
Maybe my problem is I just can't see myself dancing through the daisies with butterflies circling around my head as I sing children's songs to the bears and wildlife.