Talk about vintage powder!

[number2onmyshoe]

A friend was over awhile ago when I was just finishing up some loads for my 7mm Rem mag and noticed I was almost out of powder, he said "I have a couple boxes of reloads my Dad did awhile ago and I think I might have some 4831 around, I'll bring it over the next time I stop by". Lo and behold, he brought me 2 boxes of reloads with 160 gr Sierras, one was dated 1962 & the other 1967, in the old Remington Kleanbore boxes none the less! The piece-de-resistance was the pound of Hogdon 4831, it must be the same era! I'm a little hesitant about the ammo, it's clean & shows no signs of deterioration, but I'm not sure I want to try it. The powder though is almost full and I don't know as if it has ever been open, there isn't even any rust on the metal ends or inside the cap, it looks and smells the same as H4831 I bought last year. What do you guys think? (I've included a pic of the can of powder)

[BigBull 301]

That's an oldie for for sure.
Funny thing is I just bought 9+ Lbs of H-4831 today that I thought was old.
Yours is older

[Sevens]

Cool!
Opinions vary wildly. The easiest thing in the whole world to do would be go out and spend the $22 for another can and pour that one in the garden. Then keep the absolutely cool old can on display at or near the reloading bench.

Others will tell you that there's a very good chance it's completely good to use.

If you aren't sure and would worry about it, it's no big loss to spread it on the lawn. That's the safest way to get rid of it and you won't worry another minute about whether it was any good or not. It's not like it cost you anything out of pocket.

It's funny exactly what is considered "old" by whoever looks at it. That one looks good and old to me, but cans of Hercules from the '80s are the kind of things I still have, still USE and still see for sale in some places where others think it must have come from a buried tomb. And then we've got old guys on this forum that were in their 90s back in the 50s and paid thirteen cents for a can of that stuff in your picture!

[number2onmyshoe]

Thanks Sevens, I think I'm going to try the powder, like I said it doesn't show any signs of being deteriorated. It's been sealed and stored in the bottom of a gun cabinet for a long time with little to no fluctuations in temp or humidity, it's the same color and smell as new 4831 I have, and from my research & understanding the H4831 is a single base powder which remains relatively stable given stable storage conditions. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[W. C. Quantrill]

Hodgdons has a website, and they have a contact number, it wouldnt take much time nor any cost to contact them and ask the people that made it....eh?

[number2onmyshoe]

Good idea W.C., think I'll give them a call tommorow, thanks....

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I've got alot of older powder I'm still using... but yours is older

if it was stored well... it's probably still good

[GeauxTide]

I've got some old Hercules Unique and Blue Dot that's more than 20 years old.

[ZeSpectre]

The easiest thing in the whole world to do would be go out and spend the $22 for another can and pour that one in the garden. Then keep the absolutely cool old can on display at or near the reloading bench.

That's what I'd do (Says the guy who's uncle used to keep a collection of old time oilcans).

[Mike Irwin]

Hodgdon didn't make that powder.

After WW II they bought millions of pounds of surplus US military powder and sold it well into the 1960s.

I'd bet that powder was made by either Du Pont or by a Government arsenal.

I have some old loading manuals if you want to counter check the charge weights for H-4831 today against period loads.

[Michaelm45]

I have old loading manuals too if you need any info.
I'd also like to share an old letter form Bruce Hodgdon. (don't know what happened to the rest of letter)
I think I bought these around 1970.
Look at the price marked on the BL-C can.
Wished I would have bought more...

[Pathfinder45]

.....we might not be able to buy ammo or components or guns ever again. If and when that happens you'll be kicking yourself if you used that powder to fertilize your lawn. Go pee in the grass if your desperate for fertilizer, and send the powder to me if you're worried about its quality.

[1911 Shooter]

I agree 100%. bought some IMR-4320 in the metal cans about 15 # of it for 12. last fall & 20 # of dupoint p5066 also. it all goes bang.

[Mike Irwin]

I found something on the web that said that when Hodgdon started selling powder after WW II, a 150 pound keg cost $30. Shipping included...

[Sevens]

Go pee in the grass if your desperate for fertilizer

Hmmmm... smokeless powder is good for making the grass grow.
Hmmm... peeing in the grass works also?
Hmmm... smokeless makes my cartridges run.
Hmmmmmmm... will they run on pee, too?

How many grains of pee to get 800 fps in a .45 using a 200gr LSWC?
Anyone have a scale that measures drops and a pee-to-grain conversion formula?

Now if I can just make some primers from scat, I'm set in to perpetuity!

[Mike Irwin]

Urine has salt in it, which is bad for grass.

Smokeless powder doesn't have salt in it, just nitrogen.

[robphillips]

I have that exact can of blc setting on the shelf, unopened.

[mkl]

As I recall, Hodgens surplus 4831 powder was WWII government surplus that was designed and loaded into a 20mm cannon round (Oerlikon cannon?).

I have several cans of Hodgen powder in the paper cans like shown in the picture above. They all shoot just fine. As long as the powder has been stored in anything approximating indoor temperature and humidity conditions, the lifetime is almost unlimited. As long as the powder does not have an ammonia smell or look like it has red "rust" on it, it should be okay to use.

I found the cannon I think the name of the cannon for which the powder was designed. It was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon

talk about trivia...

[Mike Irwin]

No, Hogdon's 4831 was definitely surplus rifle powder.

The powder grains for the 20mm Oerlikon gun were significantly larger and slower burning than rifle powders given the fact that the projectile weight was significantly more and the standard barrel length on these guns was about 5 feet.

[mkl]

Here's a reference to the cannon:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=39428.

I may have read that in the American Rifleman article also.

Could be wrong, but I'm not the only one who remembers that the 20mm cannon was a use of 4831.

[BigDog454]

Hey! I've got a couple of those old cans, look the same and I still use it. It still goes BANG!!

[Mike Irwin]

Well I'll be dipped. I've just found some other references to IMR 4831 being the propellant.

Very interesting.

[Unclenick]

Cannon? An unexpected result, to be sure.

No2onmyshoe,

Since it looks and smells good, it probably is. Keep in mind the surplus powder would be a non-canister grade powder that preceded the Hodgdon Extreme line made in Australia today. It is likely to be closer to IMR4831. But, again, being a bulk powder rather than a canister grade, you should allow that its performance may be different than the modern equivalents are and take the guys up on their offers to give you some data from vintage load manuals to get your starting loads from.

[mkl]

Well I'll be dipped. I've just found some other references to IMR 4831 being the propellant.

Glad to help out.

We old grey hairs seem to have great long-term memory; just wish I could remember the difference in setting all of the sight variations there have been on the AR-15 rifles.... A1, A2, A4, etc....

[dardascastbullets]

Deteriorating powder can easily be detected by smell and sight. The smell of deteriorating powder is similar to ammonia and the sight is that of red dust. I had almost a hundred pounds of 4831 that went south many years ago. It did indeed help the grass grow!