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Old July 14, 2019, 07:56 AM   #1
lunger
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AR Handle Sights

When shooting my red dot equipped AR next to my M1 Garrand, I noticed something. For me at least I preferred the the Garrand sights. Easier to pick up especially in the sunlight.

I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but i am thinking of going back to irons on the AR. I know there are probably some situations where the red dot would be superior,but for my use they would be few and far between.

For those that use them, looking for recommendations on handle type. Rifle is a older SW Sport I . I want decent quality not the $20 ebay stuff.

Any other options worth looking at? I like the classic look of the handle type ,but open to suggestions .
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Old July 14, 2019, 05:04 PM   #2
imashooter
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Handle? So you want a detachable carry handle with rear sight vs only a rear sight on your rail? You still have the A2 fsb installed? If so, you can find decently priced, good quality Colt handles in assorted forums for sale, eBay, etc. If you have patience, you can usually get one for under 50.00 including the installed rear sight.

Last edited by imashooter; July 14, 2019 at 05:12 PM.
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Old July 14, 2019, 05:45 PM   #3
lunger
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Correct detachable carry handle with sight .(even though nobody carries with it) A2 front sight still installed. Currently have Vortex Red Dot with Magpul flip ups that came on the SW.

Have been watching Fleabay for a Colt or DPMS. Haven't found the right deal yet. New is on the plus side of a $100. I will pay if I have to. I also see UTG Pro? says USA made but not familiar with them . Around $60 new.

Just trying to simplify things. As i said I am loving the M! sights so wanting similar on AR.
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Old July 14, 2019, 06:12 PM   #4
imashooter
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IMO UTG parts manufactured in the US are very good. No experience with their carry handles. Many folks have no issue with the PSA ones. Windham Weaponry ones are good. An alternative to the carry handle is the stand alone MaTech rear sight (excellent). I see no problem with any US forged / finished CH. Regarding your fsb, don't have any concern whether it's A2 or F-marked. At the very most you'd either need to swap out for a taller or shorter (or file it) post. Zero concern.

BTW, everyone I served with, including me, grasped the CH if needed.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...Sight&_sacat=0

Last edited by imashooter; July 14, 2019 at 06:24 PM.
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Old July 14, 2019, 07:03 PM   #5
Charlie_98
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Personally, I have peeps on all my AR's... and on pretty much any rifle I can fit them on, with very few exceptions.

If you can get away from the carry handle idea, Daniel Defense makes a very nice QD mount rear peep setup, they call it the A1.5 sight...

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Old July 16, 2019, 07:08 AM   #6
DMK
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Quote:
Correct detachable carry handle with sight .(even though nobody carries with it) A2 front sight still installed. Currently have Vortex Red Dot with Magpul flip ups that came on the SW.

Have been watching Fleabay for a Colt or DPMS. Haven't found the right deal yet. New is on the plus side of a $100. I will pay if I have to. I also see UTG Pro? says USA made but not familiar with them . Around $60 new.

Just trying to simplify things. As i said I am loving the M! sights so wanting similar on AR.
Keep an eye on the AR15.com Equipment Exchange for a used one.

A good one probably will be at least $100. Even a good metal flip up BUIS costs nearly that much. Here's a DPMS Carry handle for $95 new @ Brownells and a Colt for $109.

When you get one, set it up for the RIBZ so you can get a 100m and 50y/200m zero with it using the small aperture:

https://www.everydaymarksman.co/equi...sight-setting/

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/ibz/


Last edited by DMK; July 16, 2019 at 07:25 AM.
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Old July 16, 2019, 08:15 AM   #7
zukiphile
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If you like the appearance of the handle sight, perhaps nothing else will do.

I like the Rock River Dominator. https://www.rockriverarms.com/index....tegory_id=1517

The idea is that you get an A2 rear sight but there is a small riser built in for an Eotech. Mine only has a single notch rather than a full picatinny rail, so it is comfortable for me to reach over the top and squeeze the bolt release.

A $20 ebay rear A2 style sight also functions well, but the Rock River doesn't have the enormous single twist knob to keep it on, so it's cleaner overall and interfaces with the picatinny on top of the upper to stay put. I don't know whether the Dominator 1 is still made, but there seem to be used Dominator 2s on the used market.
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Old July 16, 2019, 07:09 PM   #8
lunger
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Yea kind of set on the handle .

Thanks DMK those are the two I was looking at. Might have two bite the bullet and buy new.

Good articles. Have been watching You Tube . Didn't realize how much was involved setting one up.
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Old July 16, 2019, 08:00 PM   #9
imashooter
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Or go the A1 route. https://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15dehandle.html
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Old July 16, 2019, 08:05 PM   #10
imashooter
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"Didn't realize how much was involved setting one up." Not as crazy as many make it sound. You can go "stock" so to speak, Improved Battlesight Zero, or Revized Battlesight Zero. Here's an example of what I consider a good tutorial. http://www.thenewrifleman.com/ibz/
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Old July 17, 2019, 07:02 PM   #11
lunger
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Ended up buying one advertised as a BAFE forge take off. About 1/2 cost of new ones I have looked at .Looks new I assume someone removed to use optics. Arrived today ,seems solid well build.

Replaced my red dot and flip ups. So far I like. Now to get to the range and decide how to zero.

Thanks for the replies and advice .
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Old July 18, 2019, 06:52 AM   #12
DMK
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Cool deal! Glad you snagged one at a good price.

Get a pic and post it.
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Old July 18, 2019, 07:25 AM   #13
imashooter
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Quote:
Ended up buying one advertised as a BAFE forge take off. About 1/2 cost of new ones I have looked at .Looks new I assume someone removed to use optics. Arrived today ,seems solid well build.

Replaced my red dot and flip ups. So far I like. Now to get to the range and decide how to zero.

Thanks for the replies and advice .
Great. And glad to see you got it at a reasonable cost. If you need any help with your zero / ranging, just give a holler.
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Old July 19, 2019, 09:50 PM   #14
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunger
Ended up buying one advertised as a BAFE forge take off. About 1/2 cost of new ones I have looked at .Looks new I assume someone removed to use optics. Arrived today ,seems solid well build.

Replaced my red dot and flip ups. So far I like. Now to get to the range and decide how to zero.
What did you get for a front sight? The S&W Sport comes from the factory set up for low-rise sights, not for a carry handle.

I'm not sure you can use most of the articles on "battlesight zero" for a 16-inch carbine. I've been going through this for a carbine that came from the factory with an integral, A1 style carry handle. I wanted to find an optimum, point blank zero that would (I hoped) work with both M193 and M855 ammunition. As it turns out (subject to confirmation at an outdoor range), it was easier than expected.

I used two external ballistics programs, and they generated almost identical results. One was "Lee Shooter," an older program that Lee Precision no longer sells or supports. The other that I used is a freeware download (for Windows) called "PointBlank." It's an excellent program. Since Lee Precision has told me their program won't run under Windows 10, I'll be migrating to PointBlank exclusively when I make the jump from Windows 7 to Windows 10.

After checking multiple sources, including a retired police chief who now owns an ammo manufacturing company, out of a 16-inch barrel M193 is good for about 3,100 feet-per-second, and M855 is good for 3,000 fps. The sight height for the carry handle is 2.5 inches about the bore axis. Ballistic coefficient for M193 is about 0.243, and for M955 it's about 0.307.

That should be all you need to know to run the program. To save you some work ... for both M193 and M855, a zero at 50 yards is also a zero for 200 yards. Because M855 has a better ballistic coefficient, the trajectories of the two are almost identical out to 400 yards. The's nowhere on my property that even close to 400 yards from my house, so that's all I need to worry about.

For the 50/200 yard zero, with M193 at 100 yards the trajectory is +1.09", at 125 yards the trajectory is +1.31" and at 150 yards it's +1.22". With M855, at 100 yards the trajectory is 1.11", at 125 yards it's +1.33" and at 150 yards it's 1.21". At 300 yards, they're both minus 7" and a fraction.

Good enough for my purposes.
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Old July 20, 2019, 12:52 PM   #15
lunger
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Wow glad I went with carry handle sight to simplify things . I think I am going to have to take a calculus class to zero this sight.

My older original Sport has an F stamped front sight. If I understand correctly this indicates compatible with removable sights.

Just got back from the range. After reading articles and watching You Tube vids my head was spinning . The range I was at only has 50 and 100 . For first time out I left as factory set. Using small aperture zeroed at 50 . At 100 did hit about 1" high. When I get some where with a longer range. I may decide to make changes.

I think I was shooting a little better with the red dot but not by enough to make me go back.

I also put 20 rounds through the Garrand. It continues to amaze me.
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Old July 20, 2019, 06:03 PM   #16
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No calculus needed, but downloading a copy of PointBlank will help you play around at home before you get to the range. That said, your results spund like you're right on the money.

FWIW, here's what PointBlank gave me for M193 and M855, when I ran it for a 200-yard zero. I transferred the results to Excel so I could plot both graphs together -- PointBlank will give you either data or a curve for each set of parameters you run, but I don't think you can superimpose the charts for visual comparison

Attached Images
File Type: jpg AR-15_Trajectory_ScreenShot.JPG (108.6 KB, 92 views)
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Old July 20, 2019, 06:27 PM   #17
lunger
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Yea just kidding about the calculus,but some methods seem to really over complicate things.

Thanks for the Pointblank . This will be quite useful . Even with my public education I can understand this.

I wonder how the 200 yard zero would correspond to the drum settings.
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Old July 20, 2019, 07:17 PM   #18
imashooter
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Sounds like you're getting it figured out. Pretty simple stuff if you let it be. Good deal.
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Old July 20, 2019, 08:52 PM   #19
DMK
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Quote:
I wonder how the 200 yard zero would correspond to the drum settings.
The drum is graduated in meters. If you setup the drum using the RIBZ method, you add 200m (218y) (four clicks below 3/6) and a 100m (109y) (6 clicks settings below 3/6). 200M is roughly equivalent to a 50y zero. On the 100m zetting, zero just a hair high (probably less than 1/4") at 100y and it should be pretty close to the 100m zero.

Keep in mind that a small error in zero on a close target will greatly be magnified on a distant target. Always zero at the furthest distance you can at your range. In other words, if you zero at 50y with a 200m setting, verify at 100y with 100m setting and fine tune.
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