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Old December 20, 2019, 08:00 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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ATF Announces New Category of NFA Weapon for Franklin Reformation.

Witness the newly created, GCA/SBS - a short barrel shotgun subject to the Gun Control Act rather than the NFA.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-reclassified/
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Old December 20, 2019, 09:58 PM   #2
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Cool. A "shotgun" that ... doesn't ... chamber ... shotgun ... ammunition.

My head hurts.
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Old December 20, 2019, 10:00 PM   #3
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A shotgun with a straight rifled barrel even.
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Old December 20, 2019, 10:52 PM   #4
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Gotta love legal definitions...sometimes...

Let's create a gun that splits hairs on legal definitions in various laws and see how many we can sell (at ~$1400) before the govt finally decides where in their framework it belongs.

Oh, and the ATF says you can't sell any to a non-FFL, and if you already privately own one you cant take it across state lines UNTIL we come up with a process to fit it into our system.

And what is it? I admit I'm not into the AR market, but it appears to be a short barrel, short stocked AR in 5.56mm with a grooved, not rifled barrel.

Since the straight grooves do not impart spin, and imparting spin is the whole point of rifling, it isn't "rifled". And, if it isn't rifled, then by definition, it can't be a rifle. SO it skirts that legal definition.

But , its also not chambered for shotgun ammunition, so its avoids the definition of shotgun in that direction.

Is it a handgun? handguns have to be rifled, or they fall into the "sawed off shotgun" class. Is it an AOW? Is it an NFA item, or just a "regular" gun that falls under the other gun control laws (GCA 68 in particular)??

Seems to be the ATF is trying to make up its mind. I'm sure they will, eventually. They always do. Just their mind changes sometimes....

A .223 that doesn't spin the bullets....I don't have a use for one of those...nor do I have the $ to donate to the worthy cause of poking gun control law in the eye while following the letter of the law. Additionally, my state is one of the 11 states they listed as NOT selling to, so for me, its a moot point.


perhaps some enterprising fellow or group will come up with .224 caliber fin stabilized projectile, but be sure it doesn't meet anyone's definition of armor piercing, or we won't be able to buy those, either...
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Old December 21, 2019, 12:04 AM   #5
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It’s also damn near useless on a practical level. Unless the practice is to confound the ATF.
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Old December 21, 2019, 03:26 AM   #6
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In 5.56, yes and yes.

In a pistol caliber with a nose-heavy Foster slug style bullet? Not match grade, but perhaps workable.

The GCA defines shotguns as firing shotgun shells and smoothbore.

I'm thinking the ATF is just throwing spaghetti at the wall here.
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Old December 21, 2019, 05:45 AM   #7
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To be honest, that looks a lot like the ATF is saying, "It's new. We don't like it. Let's try to ban it."
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Old December 21, 2019, 06:26 PM   #8
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To be honest, that looks a lot like the ATF is saying, "It's new. We don't like it. Let's try to ban it."
I didn't quite get that from what was provided. What I got was "its new, we don't know where to put it, so until we do, you can't sell them, or cross state lines with them..."

So not exactly a ban, as there is an implied "when we do, you can"
but in practical terms at this moment, if you can't buy one, its a distinction without a difference.
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Old December 22, 2019, 02:51 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Spats McGee View Post
To be honest, that looks a lot like the ATF is saying, "It's new. We don't like it. Let's try to ban it."
I can only imagine the back and forth over this at the ATF the past few weeks/months:

"Well, it's not a rifled barrel and it has a buttstock, thus it can only be a shotgun."

"Yeah, but to be a shotgun the barrel has to be smooth."

"It's not rifled and it's not smooth, but it's obviously going to be the next trend by gunmakers to make what would be a short barrel shotgun with a barrel under 18 inches and put these grooves in it so it doesn't have to be regulated like Short Barrel Shotguns are, so we have to come up with something otherwise there's going to be blood running in the streets."

"Oh hell, let's just work some magic like we did with bump stocks and say it simulates a sawed off shotgun and that which simulates that which is regulated we'll just declare that the simulated gun IS what it simulates and thus must also be regulated."

"EXCELLENT! That simulated gun being no different than the gun that's regulated would work wonders for those pesky pistol braces and the SBR regulations! We'll get to working on that when we get back in 2020. Excellent work people, we saved the day again! Merry Christmas to all!"
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Old December 22, 2019, 03:50 AM   #10
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This kind of thing is to be expected when you play the kind of game Franklin is playing. Eventually there's going to be pushback. In this case, it really only affects the Reformation, but in the past, companies have pushed the boundaries and affected the whole community when they finally drew attention from the BATF.
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Old December 22, 2019, 06:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I didn't quite get that from what was provided. What I got was "its new, we don't know where to put it, so until we do, you can't sell them, or cross state lines with them..."

So not exactly a ban, as there is an implied "when we do, you can"
but in practical terms at this moment, if you can't buy one, its a distinction without a difference.
"....when we do...." IMHO, BATFE has no reason to go any further, unless there's a legal challenge to this. It has 'classified' it, and banned its transfer and transportation. It doesn't care what happens to Franklin, so why make it easier to sell or transfer these if it doesn't have to?
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Old December 22, 2019, 06:22 AM   #12
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This kind of thing is to be expected when you play the kind of game Franklin is playing. Eventually there's going to be pushback. In this case, it really only affects the Reformation, but in the past, companies have pushed the boundaries and affected the whole community when they finally drew attention from the BATF.
I don't know that I'd call it a game. Congress and BATFE wrote the rules. If they don't like something that a company is doing, they should have addressed it when they did so. It's called 'not outlawing' something.
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Old December 22, 2019, 10:11 AM   #13
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The thing is, the Reformation was impractical as a firearm anyway - particularly with pistol braces being a thing. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in the wild.

There isn’t really any logical point to reclassifying the Fostech ABV and Reformation and then doing nothing about pistol braces. If I had to guess, I’d say that ride may be coming to an end after 2020.
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Old December 22, 2019, 02:17 PM   #14
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What's impractical about a short barrel, short stock AR pattern 5.56mm that isn't rifled, so will likely be minute of man accurate clear out to across the room distance, maybe?? and that can fire when you pull the trigger and when you let it trigger go??

{sarcasm}

I seriously doubt any good will come of this, beyond a temporary profit for the manufacturer. Likely it will result in harm, in the form of enhanced regulation, and new "interpretation" of regulations applied to other things,.

At least the maker isn't publicly sticking out their tongue and going "neener,neener" the way some kids have done over 3D printing and "ghost guns"...

so far, anyway...
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Old December 22, 2019, 02:33 PM   #15
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I was ecstatic about the idea of a non-NFA shotgun like the Mossberg Raptor, even though I have not purchased one. It has a particular use for a limited number of circumstances. I was never crazy about bump stocks, though I could see the fun in shooting one. But the Reformation? I don't see a need, a use, or any particular fun in owning or shooting one --- unless it's by those who just like to poke the bear. But, sometimes, the bear pokes back.
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Old December 22, 2019, 03:19 PM   #16
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I don't know that I'd call it a game. Congress and BATFE wrote the rules. If they don't like something that a company is doing, they should have addressed it when they did so. It's called 'not outlawing' something.
There was already a ruling about straight rifling. A guy named Walter H. Craig started importing .45Colt/.410 pistols with rifling that was pretty faint and essentially straight and the BATF shut him down. I think that ruling also affected TC at the time as well.
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Old December 23, 2019, 10:22 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
This kind of thing is to be expected when you play the kind of game Franklin is playing. Eventually there's going to be pushback. In this case, it really only affects the Reformation, but in the past, companies have pushed the boundaries and affected the whole community when they finally drew attention from the BATF.
I’m not a gambling man, but I’ll bet EVERYTHING I own…this all started from someone sending a letter to the ATF asking for clarification, then another, then another, then another…ATF thinks…”we need to look into this” and here we are
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Old December 23, 2019, 01:58 PM   #18
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With pistol braces avail, i dont see the need for this type of firearm.

I can have a rifled barrel of whatever length i want and keep the accuracy that a rifled barrel gives me.
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Old December 23, 2019, 02:05 PM   #19
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Yeah, but the Reformation was/is legal in more places than the pistols due to its classification.
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Old December 23, 2019, 03:35 PM   #20
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I’m not a gambling man, but I’ll bet EVERYTHING I own…this all started from someone sending a letter to the ATF asking for clarification, then another, then another, then another…ATF thinks…”we need to look into this” and here we are.
I would have thought that Franklin Armory would have asked for a ruling before they went into production.
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Old December 23, 2019, 03:49 PM   #21
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They did...just like the bump stock.

As mentioned too many people wrote letters, although that is not what happened with the bump stocks and I haven't heard much as far as letter writing goes with the braces.

My opinion...the ATF didn't really like the idea of the bump stock, but didn't "really" have a way of "saying this isn't legal" after giving it the go...then along comes that ASSHAT in Vegas and they had their "out". I'm not say the two are related, I'm saying they (ATF) saw an opportunity and took it.

In the end...don't write letters to the ATF.
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Old December 24, 2019, 11:40 PM   #22
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In the end...don't write letters to the ATF.
Not if you're looking for them to change their mind about anything. And as far as their definitions and rulings are concerned, they CHANGE.

and, seldom for the good. Right now, "pistol braces" are legal. Will they always be? I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

At one time, stocked pistol were an NFA item. Then certain curio & relic guns were ok, with a repro stock. Then, later they weren't, and were only ok if the stock was original, too.

ALWAYS remember that when you poke the bear and wake him up, he's going to want to EAT SOMETHING!

Apparently Franklin Armory either doesn't know this, or doesn't care....
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Old December 25, 2019, 08:09 AM   #23
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The thing is, the Reformation was impractical as a firearm anyway - particularly with pistol braces being a thing.
Right! Given that we can go the AR pistol route now, the short barrels weapon boat sailed without the Franklin Reformation. At this point, does it have any sort of significant advantage over an AR pistol? I don't see any.
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Old December 25, 2019, 11:43 AM   #24
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44 AMP....At one time, stocked pistol were an NFA item...
Still are.





Quote:
Then certain curio & relic guns were ok, with a repro stock. Then, later they weren't, and were only ok if the stock was original, too.
True.



Quote:
Apparently Franklin Armory either doesn't know this, or doesn't care....
Franklin armory found someone at ATF to state that "rifling" must impart a spin to the projectile. As "rifling" isn't defined in the CFR or in any federal law....i wouldn't have hung my hat on it.

FA though they would make a "firearm" with straight lands and grooves, believing that would make the firearm not a rifle, not a handgun because both require rifling. And as ATF had told them "rifling must impart spin to the projectile". ATF initially told them "its just a firearm". Since it wasn't a rifle, or handgun it could not be a Short Barreled Rifle under the NFA.
And not being smoothbore.......it obviously couldn't be a shotgun either. and if not a shotgun, SBS wasn't in the picture either.

FA had stated a year or so back that they planned on producing ammunition specifically designed to fire through this Frankengun.

If ATF would have determined it to have been a "rifle" day one, no one would have been uttering a peep. Rifling is not defined in federal law or ATF regs, so whether its spiral or straight, imparts a spin or not, lands/grooves vs polygonal, etc.......ATF will find this determination a little difficult to defend.

Versus the ATF redefining of "machine gun" to include bump stocks. That wasn't a determination or ruling, but a redefining via their rulemaking authority under federal law.
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Old December 25, 2019, 11:46 AM   #25
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Double Naught Spy ..... At this point, does it have any sort of significant advantage over an AR pistol? I don't see any.
It never had ANY advantage over an AR pistol.
It was gunhype of the worst kind by a company struggling to make sales.
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