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Old May 1, 2021, 04:14 PM   #26
Pathfinder45
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Perhaps it is a problem that is best corrected by the manufacturer. What did Smith and Wesson say?
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Old May 1, 2021, 05:00 PM   #27
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The rear sight blade can be filed down for some adjustment. Do this very carefully. Whenever I'm filing on a sight, I usually count fourteen strokes then test fire. As I near center, reduce number of strokes for minute adjustment.
Filing the front sight down will make the bullet go even higher.
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The bullet is gone before recoil affects it.
Absolutely not. The minute the bullet starts to move, the recoil begins.

If you have a straight dowel and a yardstick, you can easily demonstrate with a centerfire revolver (that has been properly sighted in) that the bore is pointed noticeably downward when the sights are lined up.

Put the gun on a flat surface with the dowel down the bore. Make sure the dowel either fits the bore pretty closely, or you have it tight against the top or bottom of the bore, not tilted in the bore.

Now set up the yardstick so that it lines up along the top of the sights. You can clearly see that the bore is pointed down with respect to the sights.

A little thought will reveal that unless the muzzle rises during the time the bullet is in the bore, the gun could never hit where the sights are aimed. The bullet would always go well below the point of aim since the bore is angled downward.
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Old May 1, 2021, 05:02 PM   #28
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Just out of curiosity, how does it shoot at other distances??

Recoil (which is happening as the bullet moves down the barrel) absolutely has an effect on handguns, simply because of where we hold the gun, well below the line of the bore, so the gun is rotating around that point even while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Its also something gun makers take into account.
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Old May 1, 2021, 05:13 PM   #29
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What did Smith and Wesson say?
They said check with your friends at the firing line first ;-)
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Old May 1, 2021, 05:56 PM   #30
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Hey guys ,

I have a 629 that the POI is adout 3 to 4 “ high at 10yds . Not surebit it’s just how close I was testing or what but the rear sight is adjusted all the way down ( front sight fixed ) .

There’s a couple things I should add . Really hot loads shoot lower but still high and if I put a death grip on the gun it shoots almost to POA . All this tells me the recoil of the gun is causing the muzzle to muve before the bullet leaves the barrel ( already knew this happens ) . My issue is the sights can’t compensate for that enough . The death grip is really not something I want to do . IMHO I’ve got strong hands and have never needed to hold any firearm so tight my hands fatigue after just a few shots .

Any answers will help thanks

MG
Every .44 I've seen has a front sight that's easily replacable. Get a slightly taller front sight.
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Old May 2, 2021, 08:43 AM   #31
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Absolutely not. The minute the bullet starts to move, the recoil begins
.

It takes a bullet about .002 seconds to leave the barrel. What recoil affects the flight of the bullet is minuscule. Of course you are "technically" correct but shooter technique and skill play a much greater role.
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Old May 2, 2021, 09:23 AM   #32
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Target shot with 4 1/4" M69 rested at 25 yds with REAR SIGHT BOTTOMED OUT and same POA (Large center Diamond) to demonstrate different load's POI. Only shot two rounds to reduce recoil fatigue and eliminate target clutter. S&Ws solution was to provide lower rear sight assembly (bottom picture, on right).


.
New rear sight.
.
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Old May 2, 2021, 09:40 AM   #33
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I’d replace the rear sight blade before messing with the front sight. There’s plenty of info out there on how to do it and it’s fairly basic gunsmithing. Or for a little more money you can just get a complete rear sight assembly.
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Old May 2, 2021, 10:58 AM   #34
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S&Ws solution was to provide lower rear sight assembly.
This would be my recommendation as well. It's not difficult to replace the rear sight blade although it does require a new windage screw and nut (all sold as a kit). As I recall, S&W shipped .44 Mags with the tallest sight blade (.160"?), and both .146" and .126" - and maybe others - are available. It's simple to calculate how much the change in sight height will affect the POI - dawsonprecision.com shows how.

With regard to the muzzle lifting before the bullet exits, there's no question that it does, with the amount of movement dependent on barrel length and muzzle velocity, among other things. Good discussion of that here: gunsmagazine.com/gear/point-of-aim-vs-point-of-impact/
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Old May 2, 2021, 11:00 AM   #35
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I just ordered the smaller rear sight blade . Should be here before I shoot again 5/10 so we’ll see if that helps .

Thanks for the help and your patients

MG
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Old May 2, 2021, 01:26 PM   #36
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At least they have a remedy for your problem. My new EZ 9MM shoots low, sent it back, S&Ws answer TOUGH, you bought it it's yours.
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Old May 2, 2021, 01:56 PM   #37
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What recoil affects the flight of the bullet is minuscule. Of course you are "technically" correct but shooter technique and skill play a much greater role.
The recoil contribution is extremely consistent, so if groups grow, it can't be blamed on recoil. However, the difference in where the muzzle starts when the bullet isn't moving and where it ends up at the time the bullet exits can make a pretty significant difference on target.

In a 40oz .357Mag revolver with a 4.2" barrel, a 125gr loading at 1450fps hits about 9" higher on a 25 yard target than it would if the muzzle didn't rise due to recoil while the bullet was in the bore. Change to a 158gr loading at 1240fps and the bullet will hit another 3.25" higher.

So yes, if the groups are big, it's not the gun, it's the shooter, but when it comes to revolvers, the point of impact change due to muzzle rise while the bullet is in the barrel is pretty significant.

The experiment I suggested earlier with the dowel and the yardstick will immediately demonstrate how much the muzzle has to rise before the bullet exits.
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Old May 2, 2021, 03:46 PM   #38
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The recoil contribution is extremely consistent, so if groups grow, it can't be blamed on recoil. However, the difference in where the muzzle starts when the bullet isn't moving and where it ends up at the time the bullet exits can make a pretty significant difference on target.
Yes and no.

Less recoil lowers the point of impact
More recoil raises the point of impact
Higher velocity, with the same recoil, raises the point of impact
Lower velocity, with the same recoil, lowers the point of impact

Shooter skill and technique will always affect HOW the gun recoils, to a point.
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Old May 2, 2021, 05:29 PM   #39
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There is some shooter contribution, but as you point out, the bullet is in the bore for a very short time so the main contribution is recoil.

I suspect with a low velocity round, trying to grip the gun very tightly and getting behind it as much as possible vs. holding it loosely could make a noticeable difference on target, but for the most part, it's the recoil that makes the difference.

Assuming that all the loads are shot from the same gun, then muzzle momentum and the time the bullet spends in the barrel are the two things that affect the point of impact.

The same muzzle momentum with longer dwell time will move the shot higher on the target. There's more time for the muzzle to raise even though the momentum/recoil is the same.

The same dwell time with higher muzzle momentum will move the shot higher on the target. The higher momentum/recoil will push the barrel higher during the time the bullet is in the bore.
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Old May 2, 2021, 07:58 PM   #40
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To be a bit more clear, its not the recoil its the rotational movement of the gun barrel upward DUE TO recoil, and that can be affected by the shooter's grip on the gun.

While the recoil pulse can be the same the weight of the gun, and shape of the grips, and the shooter's grip on the gun all play a part in how much the barrel rises light bullet or heavy one, its a matter of how much time they spend going down the rising barre, and how much that barrel rises during that time that makes a difference in the POI at close pistol ranges.
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Old May 3, 2021, 07:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by pete2 View Post
At least they have a remedy for your problem. My new EZ 9MM shoots low, sent it back, S&Ws answer TOUGH, you bought it it's yours.
Shooting low isn't a problem, I wish every pistol I bought shot low, then it's just a simple filing of the front sight to get it to POA with the load I would most commonly use. Two modern 1911s I have shot high and required a taller front sight.
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Old May 3, 2021, 07:21 AM   #42
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Filing the rear sight is an option I considered and still might but that will be the last option I try . It almost looks like the rear sight blade is replaceable ?? If so I can get another one and file the crap out of it
LINK....How to change S&W rear sight.

Good video. I would buy an extra blade and try shortening this one.
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Old May 3, 2021, 12:00 PM   #43
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In Ontario Canada, you could obtain a license to carry a pistol, for protection against Wild Animals, (Not sure now?) most specifically Bears.

There were a very small amount of Instructors who had that permission, granted by the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police). I was one of those, from 1981 till 2004. My students were mostly Security Officers and Armoured Car attendants.

And in the USA, Police Officers. As a member of the board of IALEFI. For 20 years.

One of these gentlemen who carried a 6" barreled S&W 44 Mag. A rock Hound went to another Instructor for a while, then came to me.

The shoot portion he had used, was with a .38 Special revolver owned by that instructor? Not permitted to fire a 44 Mag in the range used? Not sure of the story. Anyway, my range was a wartime concrete bunker, you could shoot any small arms there.

He had never fired his 44 Mag. Period. The rear sight was screwed fully down. He saw that it was loose, so he tightened it down! I adjusted it about halfway out (on the advice of a friend who owned that model of a pistol) Taking two factory rounds from the 50 round box presented, both of us double plugged, I
fired both rounds, single action, aimed at the circle of an IPSC target at the full 20 yds. They struck the circle somewhere.
Had my Student aim my minus cylinder or crane equipt revolver at my eye!
He was looking over the sights by 2 inches! Not through them. Corrected that.

Had him shoot two rounds of single-action, then 2 double action. He did OK.
My advice to him, talk to at least a couple of wildlife guides reference advice on hunting Grizzlys/Brown bears, he would not be doing any hunting, but he might fall afoul of one of them. I felt I had earned my $125.00 fee. Canadian.

As always, I can not go without some humour. My third job, on moving to Canada from Australia. Was as a Purchasing Agent. My second in command went by the name of Fred. During our lunch breaks and stuff, it came out that he was a sports pistol shooter, and belonged to a pistol club, an indoor one.

"Don't worry about the equipment, I have all of that, he said" So the next Wednesday night, off we went.
I did not speak on my knowledge, one way or the other.

The range was in the loft of an industrial building, 20 yds, deep, and good air conditioning. He gave me ears, and eyes in the club room, which I donned.
After sending a bullseye target downrange, he loaded 5 rounds of his reloads, and double actioned all 5 rounds in a hurry!
"That would keep their heads down!" He said, when the targets were returned, he had two hits.
New target up, sent down. "Fred, do you mind if I dry fire a few times?"

Suspicious look? "No, he said." This is a one-hand hold bull's eye club.

This 44 mag had a beautiful single action. Most of the rounds were touching, level with the bull, 4" to the left of it. He gave me a very old fashioned look, placed my target in his bag, saved his empties, packed up, and left.

He made no comment, till we were sitting in a Tim Hortons Coffee shop!!

"Why did you not tell me you were Olympic material!" "You never gave me a chance!" I said.

My guns were still in a locked case in the downtown Post Office. You needed all kinds of permits, belong to a gun club, etc! To get them out. On a visit to look at my guns, under supervision, I heard an accent, just like mine, somewhere behind the front counter.

"Hey Scouse, come out to the front counter" Around came a broken nosed individual. ( I might have given it to him in my Bouncing years)

We had a chat, I showed him my receipt. He came back with a Post Office bag.
Put it on the counter "Say newt, tarawell La" I left.
I did not say we, the Family and I were staying with my first cousin Benny.
A metro Police Sgt. Toronto Police! He just about had a heart attack. When with no permission to have, my 3 pistols were in his house.
It was all sorted out in a couple of months. And 50 year later, here I am, in Orlando.
A Yank. Both my wife and I of 28 years.
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Old May 3, 2021, 01:48 PM   #44
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Use lighter bullets. They impact lower.
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Old May 4, 2021, 01:16 PM   #45
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Alright the plan is to go out again on Monday . This time with my chrono and the new rear sight blade installed . As well as some of those 14gr HS-6 loads to sight in and practice with .

I was able to find/buy some Hornady 240gr XTP's and loaded them up with H-110 .



My process for trim to length is to trim a bit short before sizing . What I do is measure before sizing 10 cases then size and measure again to see how much they grow on avg . I then trim all cases short the same amount they grew on average . In this case that was .007 so my trim to length before sizing is 1.267 I started doing this with 357 cases and it worked well so I also do it with the 44mag cases . This gets me to a +/- .002 of suggested trim to lengths regardless of manufacture .

I bring that up because I seat my bullets right to the top of the cannelure . This results in my COAL being .018 shorter then Hornady's suggestion .



Based on my process if I seated to 1.260 per Hornady the bullet sits here in the case .



All that said and thinking about it makes me think the manufacturers have already taken that sizing growth into account and I should not be trimming below there suggested trim length . At the same time I think NO you generally trim after sizing so they want the final trim to length after sizing to be there recommended length ?? ( calgone take me away )

EDIT: all that said and I never asked the question I started this post for in the first place . What kind of FPS will I be expected to gain or loose per inch of barrel length when testing pistol ? Is it the same as rifle ? I’m shooting a 6” barrel but most data I see is using a 4” or 8” barrel so I need to know what to expext . Hornady says 24.8gr from a 7.5” should be around 1400fps so what would I “expect” to get from a 6” barrel ?
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Old May 4, 2021, 03:30 PM   #46
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I bring that up because I seat my bullets right to the top of the cannelure . This results in my COAL being .018 shorter then Hornady's suggestion .
First off, you are loading for a revolver. Second, its just their suggestion. As long as the cannelure/crimp groove is in the right place, being a few thousandths short or long from the bullet maker's suggestion is machts nichts.
(assuming it doesn't stick out the front of the cylinder, of course...)

Generally speaking, revolvers don't care about 0.018" COL difference...a bench rest rifle might, a revolver, not so much...

Quote:
What kind of FPS will I be expected to gain or loose per inch of barrel length when testing pistol ?
there is no reliable number, only general trends. Different powders, and different guns, different barrels, bullets and the fit between all of them makes every gun a unique individual. The only constant is that if you get exactly what the book got, it is serendipity. Your gun will probably be close, but don't expect any kind of exact match.

I've seen 100fps difference shooting the same ammo out of 3 guns with 6" barrels. Usually the spread is much less, but there's always some difference.

Split the difference between the 8 inch and 4 inch data and that is about what a 6inch will give you. About...roughly...assuming your gun isn't exceptionally "fast" or "slow" compared to average. It could very well be either or neither. Also be aware that difference could be different between fast and slow powders as well.

The only way to know exactly what your gun and your ammo are giving you is to test them yourself. Otherwise its just a guess.
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Old May 4, 2021, 05:32 PM   #47
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As mentioned above, velocity is not only barrel length dependent but also gun dependent. With that in mind, here's test I did with 2 3/4" M69, 4 1/4" M69 and a 7 1/2" Ruger Super Redhawk. Same day, same environmental conditions, but different guns/bbl lengths. Results are reasonably representative I suspect. One other thing that I've observed is that loads with heavier for caliber bullets loose less velocity in shorter barrels vs lighter faster ones.

Buffalo Bore, 305 LBT LFN HC rated 1,325 fps
Underwood, 305 LFNGC Plated (HiTech?) rated 1,325 fps
LabRadar muzzle velocity at 33 deg F

S&W M69 2.75" ===> BB 1,195 fps ===> Under 1,147fps
S&W M69 4.25" ===> BB 1,276 fps ===> Under 1,248 fps
Ruger SRH 7.5" ===> BB 1,395 fps ===> Under 1,315 fps


FWIW,

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Old May 5, 2021, 12:12 AM   #48
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What kind of FPS will I be expected to gain or loose per inch of barrel length when testing pistol ?
Here's a decent resource for answering that question. It should at least give you a general feel for what the change will be.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
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Old May 5, 2021, 05:25 AM   #49
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Curious why would you trim before sizing?
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Old May 5, 2021, 06:48 AM   #50
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It is my understanding yoiu trim after sizing to get a consistent length, and to ensure the length is below max. Sizing can change the length of the brass, possibly unevenly.

While perhaps getting a bit obsessive for pistol brass, to get more consistency in your crimp and length consider trimming after sizing. Perhaps that is why some consider it standard practice when done to rifle brass?

And because there are always exceptions, revolver brass can actually stretch when used in max load in some rifles.
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