The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 1, 2022, 05:55 AM   #1
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,980
first aid training for gun shot wounds and similar injuries

I take a first aid class every year for work. It's basically a CPR class. Most of the day is focused on chest compressions, rescue breaths, and how to use a AED. At the end of the class we practice wrapping gauze pads on a partner to simulate covering a cut.


I would like to find a class that is more focused on treating injuries. Gun shots, broken bones, bad cuts, etc. I'm not a paramedic but I want to know how to help people while the paramedics are on the way. Response times to some ranges I shoot at could be a half hour or so.

Does anyone know where such a class is taught? I'm in Ohio but I'd travel if I had to. Every first aid class I have found in SE OH and in the Columbus area are CPR focused. I know how to do CPR. I want injury response training.
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 06:34 AM   #2
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,901
SIG Sauer Academy has a class on Trauma Management. The instructor is often Jon Carlson, who was a Special Forces Medical Sergeant (he was a Green Beret).

https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/prod...uma-management

https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/instructors/jon-carlson

The course outline on the webpage is far briefer than the class. You cover the MARCH (Massive hemorrhage, Airway complications, Respirations, Circulation, Hypothermia prevention) trauma assessment, bleeding control (from tourniquets to wound packing), the recovery position, nasal airways (and using NPAs), chest trauma (including using chest seals), fractures, frostbite, hypothermia prevention, and anaphylactic shock. The printouts I have make up 52 pages and I have notes written all over them.

I would say if you can’t make that course, find a course locally that at least covers tourniquet use. As someone waiting for a first responder when it comes to broken bones you’re generally applying a basic splint or just limiting movement. Stopping massive blood loss, however, is something that is critical while waiting for EMS and for people that use firearms it can be an important tool to know how to use. The other part of this is actually having medical equipment with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 1, 2022, 10:19 AM   #3
shafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,605
Find a Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) class nearby if you can. They cover touriquet use, wound packing, and chest seals. That's really all you're going to do for a gunshot anyways outside of a hospital.
shafter is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 10:58 AM   #4
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 7,926
Willie and Tunnel Rat, both good posts!.
I'm no expert, but long ago I took EMT training.

There are stages to helping an injured person. The most critical thing a first responder can do is get an ambulance or helicopter on the way.
If,for example,your concern is about a shooting range, find out ahead of time how the cell service is. If its a dead zone, browse REI and study up on InReach or other sat phone devices.

The training you are looking for is about what you can do with what you have in the time it takes for the paramedics to arrive. And what you can't do.
HiBC is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 12:17 PM   #5
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 3,132
Took a class after I got my CCL and one key thing that stood out was to - prevent blood loss. Tourniquet and blood clotting powder are essential.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 02:14 PM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Took a class after I got my CCL and one key thing that stood out was to - prevent blood loss. Tourniquet and blood clotting powder are essential.
Discussing trauma kits with a former military [male] nurse, I was surprised when he told me that clotting powder is to be avoided, because it makes a mess and makes treatment more difficult when the patient gets to the ER.

That said, I have it in my trauma kit, but I need to study up more on how & when to use it. In general, though, you are correct. The key with traumatic injuries is STB -- "Stop The Bleed." Depending on where the wound is, that may call for a tourniquet, a pressure bandage, clotting agent, or a combination.

General purpose first aid courses aren't going to address gunshot wounds. You need a course geared toward trauma, not "first aid." The courses suggest by others above are a good starting point. Something else to keep in mind -- a lot of ranges don't have a trauma kit. Most probably only have a general purpose "first aid" kit, which is often nothing more than a plastic box with a few Band-Aids and some antibiotic cream. A friend of mine who shoots (or did, pre-COVID) a lot of IDPA always carries his own trauma kit when he goes to a range, because he's fairly certain that the ranges won't have one. Bare minimum, a trauma kit should include a tourniquet, an Israeli bandage, and chest seals (for a sucking chest wound). Also, a couple of pairs of medical exam gloves.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 02:58 PM   #7
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Something else to keep in mind -- a lot of ranges don't have a trauma kit. Most probably only have a general purpose "first aid" kit, which is often nothing more than a plastic box with a few Band-Aids and some antibiotic cream. A friend of mine who shoots (or did, pre-COVID) a lot of IDPA always carries his own trauma kit when he goes to a range, because he's fairly certain that the ranges won't have one. Bare minimum, a trauma kit should include a tourniquet, an Israeli bandage, and chest seals (for a sucking chest wound). Also, a couple of pairs of medical exam gloves.

This is an important point. If you get this training you’ll likely want to invest in having some kit on or with you as few places will invest it themselves. I have kits with the items Aguila mentioned in each of my vehicles and my range bag.

There are a lot of vendors of medical equipment. I would avoid Amazon as a lot of it can be knock off stuff and while cheap, cheap and medical equipment aren’t generally something you want to go together. I bought a lot of my stuff from TacMed solutions. They have both kits and individual items you can buy. They also run sales throughout the year of up to 20% off (often during May as well because of May being National Stop the Bleed Month). The same instructor I mentioned above also recommended North American Rescue, Bound-Tree, Moore Medical, and Chinook Medical. I have heard good things about Dark Angel Medical, too.

In the event you can’t find something local, there are some online courses that at least go over the basics (even the DHS has one I think). stopthebleed.org has one too, but I haven’t taken it before. It’s not as good as having a practical component, but it’s something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 1, 2022, 04:19 PM   #8
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 7,926
I freely admit I don't know anything about the use of Quik-Clot..
I made the assumption on my own that there is some education that needs to go with it.
Loose clots floating around can be killers and it may be an obstacle to the paramedics or trauma surgery team.

I'm not condemning clotting agents, I'm just suggesting it may be best to get trained in proper use. Once again,I don't know what that is.
HiBC is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 04:39 PM   #9
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,637
To the OP, contact your local hospital and see if they have EMR (Emergency Medical Responder) classes. It's just below an EMT (Emergency Medical Technician). The cost is reasonable, about $150 or so. Usually somewhere around 20 hours of training.
Mike38 is offline  
Old May 1, 2022, 05:19 PM   #10
LeverGunFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2007
Location: Indiana
Posts: 344
Another option is to contact your local fire department, as they are often the first responders to trauma victims. A VFD near me has conducted classes on immediate care for chainsaw injuries, as they cover a rural area with a large population of firewood cutters. Plus the VFD members are more likely to be shooters, and thus more sympathetic to your request.
__________________
Support the Second Amendment Foundation and the Firearms Policy Coalition
LeverGunFan is online now  
Old May 1, 2022, 05:38 PM   #11
Ed4032
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 285
My wife and I took a Stop The Bleed class. I think it was sponsored by the Red Cross. They really stressed the importance of having a good turniquet. Great class.

https://www.stopthebleed.org/
__________________
Gun control is like stopping drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to drive.
Ed4032 is offline  
Old May 2, 2022, 01:34 AM   #12
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,149
Stop The Bleed, indeed. I carry a trauma kit and CAT at work.
armoredman is offline  
Old May 2, 2022, 09:39 AM   #13
shafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,605
As others have mentioned, make sure you aren't buying the cheap stuff on Amazon. It's junk and doesn't work. The windlass on the cheap tourniquets from China are notorious for snapping off. There are some reputable companies that put together ready made kits or you can assemble one yourself, but expect to pay around a hundred bucks or so for the bare basics.

Mine includes several CAT tourniquets, a pair of chest seals, two Israeli bandages, quick clot, rubber gloves, and several other odds and ends. This should be readily accessible while shooting and shooting partners should know where it is and how to use it.

I have several kits and I always have one in my vehicle where I can reach it and when I'm in remote areas camping. It's must-have equipment and something you need to invest in.
shafter is offline  
Old May 2, 2022, 11:45 PM   #14
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,353
Quote:
Discussing trauma kits with a former military [male] nurse, I was surprised when he told me that clotting powder is to be avoided, because it makes a mess and makes treatment more difficult when the patient gets to the ER.
If there is serious bleeding and nothing else is working and it will likely be quite awhile before professional medical attention will be available, then use it.

If you can stop the bleeding some other way, or if the person is going to get very rapid medical attention then make it easy on the ER and don't.

There are some things you can almost always do in a first aid situation that are extremely unlikely to cause any problems. There are other things you do only if there are no other good options or there are other extenuating circumstances.

Knowing the difference is very important and that is part of why training is good.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 3, 2022, 02:50 PM   #15
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,445
The powder has been replaced by impregnated gauze. Its a little more user friendly and you don't so much have to worry about it going into anyone's eyes in the wind.
Rob228 is offline  
Old May 3, 2022, 03:01 PM   #16
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,772
Re bleeding: I had a surgery professor who loved to intone "Significant bleeding is that which you can hear." In administering first aid, you don't need to stop all bleeding; you want to concentrate on stopping pulsatile bleeding that is emptying out your patient. Tourniquets, pressure points, and compression are the way to do that. You don't have to stop it, just reduce it to survivable levels. If you have a pulsing bleeder, those powders and such are going to be carried away. Pressure, control it, reduce it to something survivable. Get them to the OR with a pulse.
TailGator is offline  
Old May 3, 2022, 09:00 PM   #17
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,633
Rob228 hit it on the head. Loose powders are obsolete. Impregnated gauze and wound packing skills are the way to go on junctional bleeding.

Tourniquets on extremities. Wound pack junctional bleeding. Seal abdomen and/or chest
Sharkbite is online now  
Old May 5, 2022, 09:53 PM   #18
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,186
Stop the Bleed would be a basic class (great intro). There are other trauma care classes that are good. A wilderness first aid class also has a variety of good info.
raimius is offline  
Old May 6, 2022, 01:04 PM   #19
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 26,140
when I was a lad, the Boy Scouts taught first aid, along with a great many other useful skills. But, that was back in the 20th Century, and probably isn't allowed today....

today, in the 21st century, I suggest your first step is to find out if your state has a "Good Samaritan" law or something like it, BEFORE you treat anyone, for anything.

It shouldn't be needed, but in today's world, sadly, it is, so make sure you have legal CYA before you risk losing all your money and maybe everything else you ever worked for because you tried to help someone or save a life.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old June 25, 2022, 05:09 PM   #20
IZZY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 938
The course I took a first aid course in University ( Virginia) that actually did cover stab/ gunshot wounds to some limited extent...like turning a guy with a sucking chest wound on his side so he might be able to breath with his good lung, etc.

Virginia also has "good Samaritan" laws that shield people from liability who render first aid...so long as you don't do anything grossly negligent. O-HI-O has a similar law:

https://www.ageeclymer.com/blog/good...tan-laws-ohio/
IZZY is offline  
Old June 25, 2022, 06:08 PM   #21
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,592
Thoughts on the sulfa-powder our medics of WW 2 used? Not advocating its return in light of penicillin, but I'm ignorant on such matters.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is online now  
Old June 26, 2022, 04:00 PM   #22
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,353
There are a lot of organisms that are resistant now.

3-8% of the population is allergic to them and there can be some fairly serious side effects for some folks.

Probably better options available now.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 2, 2022, 05:04 PM   #23
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,171
Quote:
Re bleeding: I had a surgery professor who loved to intone "Significant bleeding is that which you can hear." In administering first aid, you don't need to stop all bleeding; you want to concentrate on stopping pulsatile bleeding that is emptying out your patient. Tourniquets, pressure points, and compression are the way to do that. You don't have to stop it, just reduce it to survivable levels. If you have a pulsing bleeder, those powders and such are going to be carried away. Pressure, control it, reduce it to something survivable. Get them to the OR with a pulse.
Quote:
Tourniquets on extremities. Wound pack junctional bleeding. Seal abdomen and/or chest
Yep. Kerlix is your friend. 8 Packs stuffed hard into the wound with a good pressure dressing will bring a femoral artery puncture to a survivable level provided you meet the golden hour.

https://quadmed.com/kerlix-bandage-rolls/
davidsog is offline  
Old August 21, 2022, 04:36 PM   #24
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,181
I always have a basic trauma kit in my truck, but I am no medic. Hopefully someone at the range (or where ever) will know what to do with the stuff
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12788 seconds with 10 queries