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Old January 30, 2017, 09:38 AM   #51
AirForceShooter
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Had an instructor that taught :
First shot to the pelvis, it stops the bad guy
Immediate second shot , recoil brings the muzzle up in line with the chest or head. Terminal illness results.

That was his double tap.

Never got a chance to use it

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Old January 30, 2017, 04:16 PM   #52
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Perhaps someone with some medical knowledge can clarify ---talking about a kidney punch ,or shot to the kidney .The kidney is basically a filter but will a punch to the adjoining adrenal gland [ major hormone producer ] do the real damage???
The kidney are higher than the pelvis area we are talking about in this thread, Mete. The right kidney is, in most people, a shade higher than the left, and usually tucks up under the last rib or two a wee bit. The left usually is less covered by the ribs. The filtering capability is pretty advanced; the kidneys filter first, then reabsorb various materials and selectively excrete others, thus adjusting the excreted material in a very complex manner. They also play a very important role in regulating blood pressure. They receive a very substantial portion of the cardiac output, on the order of 25%, and have sensitive blood pressure sensors which trigger not only local constriction or relaxation of blood vessels, but the release of hormones that act throughout the body to regulate pressures.

The point of this screed is that both the blood supply and the nerve supply to the kidneys is pretty substantial. The adrenals, on the other hand, are fairly small, like almond sized or so, and although they have both nerve and blood supplies, neither is outsized for the size of the tissue. Their main on effect on the body is the hormones they put into the bloodstream: epinephrine (adrenaline) and the cortisone group of steroid hormones.

The effect of a punch or shot to the kidneys is much more likely to be due to the kidneys, back, and ribs, than to the adrenal glands. You could think of it as imitating a kidney stone in a very rough way, in that it would stimulate a lot of the same pain receptors.
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Old January 30, 2017, 04:49 PM   #53
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Never got a chance to use it
He probably didn't either.
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Old January 30, 2017, 09:44 PM   #54
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A buddy of mine was shot in the pelvis with a 38 wadcutter. He then shot the BG 6 times with his 357 COM, reloaded, sat down putting pressure on the wound and waiting for the Calvary (me). The bullet penetrated about an inch to the bone and stopped. No pelvis shots for me, high chest, head.
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Old January 30, 2017, 11:05 PM   #55
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Nanuk

Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter. Even a simple factory 158 gr. round nose lead round may have been a different story.
Bottom line, that pelvic girdle get's busted and even the Jolly Green Giant is going to tip over.
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Old January 31, 2017, 07:48 AM   #56
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Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter.
No kidding. I shoot wadcutters for target practice all the time. They can be really wimpy. At least the Winchesters that I shoot are.
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Old February 1, 2017, 08:51 PM   #57
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Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter. Even a simple factory 158 gr. round nose lead round may have been a different story.
Bottom line, that pelvic girdle get's busted and even the Jolly Green Giant is going to tip over.
Pelvis is not easy to break by shooting. A guy I worked with in El Paso shot a glue head in the butt cheek with a 185 grain 45 ACP Federal JHP that exited thru the frontal area of the pelvis. The guy ran, swam crawled back to Mexico, flipped him off and lived to sue.

That is a very, very inconsistent place to shoot someone. This guy was maybe 5'3" 120 lbs.
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Old February 1, 2017, 08:54 PM   #58
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No kidding. I shoot wadcutters for target practice all the time. They can be really wimpy. At least the Winchesters that I shoot are.
And every few weeks somebody proclaims them to be the best SD rounds one can find. I have seen too many people shot with them to ever support that opinion. The hardcast Buffalo Bore DEWC is a different story, it carry's a lot more velocity. If I was going to recommend anything for a pelvis shot it would be a 44 or 45 hardcast DEWC at a moderate velocity.
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Old February 1, 2017, 09:44 PM   #59
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Nanuk

You're right of course. I guess I wasn't thinking about the "big picture". My poor brain was thinking about shots facing the bad guy head on . Like the old stand-by 2 to the chest 1 to the head. I wasn't thinking about shooting the bad guy thru the hams while he was facing away to try to break the pelvis.
Must be from my limited deer hunting experience. Never tried to shoot a buck in the hams to get a heart shot either.
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Old February 1, 2017, 10:02 PM   #60
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Dang, with wad cutters!

Nanuk:
This is neat. Seldom have I ever talked to anybody, short of a coroner, that has seen very many humans shot. Excluding military of course.
Quote:
And every few weeks somebody proclaims them to be the best SD rounds one can find. I have seen too many people shot with them to ever support that opinion
Where in the world have you seen "too many people" shot with wad cutters?
This could be some good documentation for those internet killers that keep recommending 148 gr soft lead wad cutters loaded backwards with gas checks for self defense.
Like you said about Buffalo hard cast. I prefer a Keith type hard cast semi wad cutter in any revolver from .38 Special to .44 mag.
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Old February 2, 2017, 07:54 AM   #61
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I was a street cop in Ft Worth, Texas working primarily in the inner city in the early to mid 80's before being hired by the US Border Patrol. Before all that I was an MP in the Army. I have been doing this since 1979 in some very dangerous places. I have seen more than a few.....

But then I also have friends that I trust in the business, homicide detectives, etc so I don't just rely on MY anecdotal evidence to form an opinion.

In the mid 80's pawn shops sold wadcutters by singles for $2 each, the most common street gun I ran into for a while was an RG 38 special.
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Old February 2, 2017, 10:47 AM   #62
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Personally, I'd just shoot center of mass. While the pelvis shot sounds good in theory, I'd rather just concentrate on shooting quickly and accurately at the biggest target I can see rather than trying to snipe at critical areas.
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Old February 2, 2017, 04:05 PM   #63
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Personally, I'd just shoot center of mass. While the pelvis shot sounds good in theory, I'd rather just concentrate on shooting quickly and accurately at the biggest target I can see rather than trying to snipe at critical areas.
Well dang AJ. Attitudes like yours (you know, being REASONABLE and all) will curtail LOTS of our discussions here. Better watch yourself.

And Welcome to TFL.
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Old February 2, 2017, 04:11 PM   #64
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Indeed its just that kind of reasoned post that has no place on the internet.

(shoot until the threat stops, don't get fancy).
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Old February 5, 2017, 12:59 AM   #65
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Part of table 2 for USMC rifle qual., is a "failure-to-stop" drill. Put two shots in the chest, another incapacitating in the pelvic girdle, or "T-box" (ocular and nasal cavities). This is to simulate an attacker at close range (5 yards), that won't go down with normal " kill-zone" shots.

For score, and for practical application, the pelvic girdle is an easier target. It's much larger than the T-box as mentioned above, and you merely need to shift your aim down. If you miss the pelvic girdle, you will still likely be hitting the torso, and causing fatal injury.

The FTS (failure to stop) drill, would often be incorporated into what is called a "box drill", which was to simulate multiple attackers. Two targets. 2 shots to the chest on one, use the recoil from that second shot to help transition to next target. 2 shots to that chest. Here they might have you drop to a knee, regardless, fire an incapacitating shot to the 2nd target, and then the same to the first.

With a little practice, you can become surprisingly fast. The above is often qualified for, on the same day you get to practice for it. Using a carbine at that distance with a fixed power optic, is more of a hindrance than if done with a pistol.

That gun club seems to think it has merit. I will say in my personal opinion, light that target up until it's no longer a threat. Nothing suppresses or eliminates a threat, like swift, violent actions. Especially in the form of overwhelming fire
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Old February 5, 2017, 01:05 AM   #66
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When I learned to shoot back in the early 70's, I was taught to shoot at the pelvis since breaking the pelvic bone will put a man down while a shot or two to the chest, even the heart, can leave them standing and coming towards you for 30 seconds. Sure there are big gaps in the pelvic bone but the odds of hitting it are better than hitting a spine.

Not many teach this anymore and glad to see Mas teaching it to his classes. You may even hit something near and dear to the bad guy too.
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Old February 5, 2017, 12:12 PM   #67
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Dave Spaulding's take on the issue.

Spaulding is a highly respected trainer if you don't know:

http://handguncombatives.blogspot.co...topper-or.html
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Old February 10, 2017, 08:02 PM   #68
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DNK

What Ayoob says makes since to a deer hunter like me. Well if you don't want to waste much meat you take a heart shot and trail the deer for a bit where he is eventually piled up.

If you want the deer to drop where he is at you take a spine or neck shot, but if you miss that won't happen and you may wound him and never find him

If you want to anchor a deer in the near vicinity you break his shoulder and hopefully hit some other vitals like major arteries, veins and he isn't going too far and most the time they drop allowing a second shot.
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Old February 22, 2017, 05:36 PM   #69
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This is a moot point. Unless you have opportunity, a shot to center mass is going into a larger"stop" zone, and imo, should be first line. A center mass pelvic area shot can be a good stop shot, too, but I don't think that it should be chosen in emergency. Center mass is dead straight, almost, where training and practice rounds go. Stay with what you know, don't attempt a shot at an unfamiliar target that is off the normal aiming plane.

Walk through a mall. See how easy it is to see where the center of the chest is? Try spotting the pelvis. Harder, isn't it? Could you draw and shoot center mass comfortably? Can you draw and shoot the pelvis with that same amount of certainty, just as quickly, and be sure that you'll hit bone and knock him down?

If you have the time and opportunity to seek out a pelvic shot, do you have time to do something else instead, like find cover?

I agree completely that a pelvic shot can end a fight, but hey, people have been known to kill after heart shots. Why do we believe that a shot to the pelvis that makes a guy fall will stop him from shooting?

Chaos is what controls a gunfight, neither shooter has much control.

So, you've heard a lot of good advice. Mull it over, and ask yourself where the greatest risks lie. Imo, there aren't significant odds that a number of center mass hits will fail to end hostilities. I believe that it usually works pretty well.

Otoh, remember that there are only a few places in the pelvis area that are disabling, and honestly, I don't think that even the best pelvic hit will stop the bad guy more reliably than a center mass shot.
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Old February 23, 2017, 12:29 PM   #70
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Well dang AJ. Attitudes like yours (you know, being REASONABLE and all) will curtail LOTS of our discussions here. Better watch yourself.

And Welcome to TFL.
Thanks. I'll try not to inject reason into too many arguments. I'm aiming for the hip from now on!
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Old February 23, 2017, 03:46 PM   #71
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Last night, I was at a store. I spent a few minutes looking at people as they passed. Guy with a long jacket, Guy with baggy, droopy pants, woman in sweats, various other baggy clothing. The only people who were remotely evident were a couple guys with tucked polo shirts. In a couple cases, it took several seconds. Add in movement, darkness, other possible confusion situations.

The options are to just keep hammering at the chest, taking the few seconds it would take to stop the aggression, or to take a series of not necessarily effective shots.

Somebody can answer my next question. Would a series of taps to the chest be enough to stop him from shooting as the shots make impact?

Now, picture missed shots to the pelvis that only perforated soft tissues. Will that also be enough to put a bad guy down with an equal number of hits?

I don't really need to share my opinion, these are just a statement of my concerns.
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Old February 23, 2017, 04:40 PM   #72
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There have been many stories of multi-hlt body shots not stopping a determined attacker. These usually associated with police and perhaps differ do to the adrenaline of the confrontation. I recall on story vividly about an officer responding to a bank robbery. The bad guy had left the bank and the cop had decided where the bad guy would go. The cop, a marksmanship trainer, Jumped on the freeway and saw a car that fit the description. He pulled along side and the drivers reaction said he was right.
After getting off the freeway and chasing him through a business area the bad guy led him into a residential area. The car stopped and the bad guy jumped out shooting. In order to put some distance between him and the bad guy he through the car into reverse an stepped on the accelerator hard. The car lurched rearward and then just stopped as though it was in neutral. He got down and accessed his pistol and began to fire back as he exited his car. To keep this short the cop went through all but three of his rounds (over 100) and sustained gun fire injury but stopped the bad guy.
The bad guy had been hit in both lungs, the heart more than once, the spleen and both kidneys. The round that finally stopped the bad guy was a head shot. There were no drugs in the bad guys blood to explain the resistance to the wounds he received. Now I am certainly not an expert and this is one example out of many but I have to believe that a head shot is a sure way to stop a determined bad guy. If you practice to hit a rectangle about 3.5" wide and 1.5" high you should be able to hit that spot intuitively. Even if the guy is wearing a motorcycle helmet with a full face shield it is almost always possible to hit that target. The target is in the same place with a side shot and drops about 1.5" at the rear.

That is what I have decided to practice with. I am moving away from center of mass to head shots for my first choice target.
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Old February 23, 2017, 05:29 PM   #73
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Mmm ok. Do you practice with swingers to simulate a moving head? Its...fun.

Note: your skill level may be such where that is a viable target.
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Old February 23, 2017, 06:49 PM   #74
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My skill level is there, the problem is I have a lot of years practicing with heart shots. I have to change my instinctual target. It will take time but the more I practice the better I will get at it.
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Old February 23, 2017, 07:19 PM   #75
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Every action has exceptional events. For every person who survives multiple rounds to center mass, the r Wil literally be hundreds who go down with a simple shot in the shoulder, or other non disabling hit.

If the chances of a bad guy taking a metric fartload of hits from an expert like yourself and still firing his weapon and wounding you afterwards are maybe 500 to 1, why would anyone choose to take shots at a probably moving target the size of a pummelo?

Myself, just like a hip shot, my chances of getting a beautiful, knockout shot in a big hurry are probably no better than even before the by fires at me.

I'd love to hear from real cops and trainers, hear their policies for training. Shoot for mostly reliable center mass, or take the time to s t art with an alternative target Thais a much smaller disabling zone?

I refuse to even contemplate calling a femur shot as a kill zone. Nothing down there will do anything more than put the shooter on h I s knees and eventually bleed out.
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