"Tactical" Light debate

[Glamdring]

I know that weapon mounted lights are the "in" thing. But I am wondering how much, if any, real world use and trial they have recieved?

Outside of SWAT teams and no knocks that is. I can see their utility there, were you normally out number the bad guy(s) and have the initiative. The exact opposite of home defense [generally speaking].

If your eyes are dark adapted it takes more than a second or two to ID something when you turn a flashlight on. But it takes no time at all to localize the light source in a room, or even outside, if someone turns on a light in the middle of darkness.

So assume your home is invaded by goblin(s), you grab your gun(s) with their tactical lights. And you start your search. You hear or kinda see something and decide to illuminate the suspect target with your light and you see a goblin with gun in hand front sight, trigger press, BANG! Now you shut off the light so the other goblins can't shoot you using your own light and move. Couple problems though, you just ruined your own nightvision and you also ruined your hearing [muzzle blast] so your operating blind and deaf against the remaining goblins that know where you are.

Of course ideally you would have been behind cover when you illuminated and wearing hearing protection.

Has anyone tested the use of tactical lights with simmunitions or splat guns? Comments?

[twist996]

tactical lights can be useful, but are often a hindrance...i do carry a scorpion flashlight, but use it discreetly...in the above scenario, i probably would not use the scorpion, relying on my own night vision, and the ambient light in my house....i do the same thing when 'patrolling' the area outside at night, using the light, hastily, not to sweep an area, but to focus on a particular object....don't think much of a light mounted on a weapon; something else to go wrong or detract from weapon effectiveness...

[George Hill]

I think the actual problem is not the light... they are useful...
But the word TACTICAL.
Gawd I hate that word!

[C.R.Sam]

George...would you prefer one of the Spec Ops Ultra Mag Tactical Assult Lights?

I am a firm believer in not havin a light on the weapon. They make great targets.

I do like low level red night lights throughout.

Sam...if it's not broken it must not be mine.

[mooser]

lights can be used to identify a target, which is very important. one would not want to shoot their teenager who is sneaking home in the night.

they can be used to blind a bad guy, giving you an advantage.

from the recieving end of a light like a surefire 6volt or higher power, all you see is the light and not the person who is holding it. this gives you (the good guy) the advantage of the bad guy not being able to identify you or your outline.

firearm mounted lights offer you the option of being able to point your firearm and illiminate at the same time for instances when you might be calling 911 on the phone with the other hand, or opening doors, etc.

a possible disadvantage to a light is that it could give away your position, letting the bad guy know where you are.
if you use improper light discipline, where you illuminate when a team or family member who is in front of you, then you have just silhouetted (spelling???) that person.

a light such as a sure fire or stinger, can always be used as an impact tool as well.

the use of a light, or possession of one has more advantages then disadvantages. well made lights from maglite, surefire, streamlight, etc. are well worth having.

just my $.02

sully
http://www.defensive-edge.net

[C.R.Sam]

If light is attached to gun, then gun is pointed at whatever you are trying to identify. Not polite to point unless prepared to shoot.

Sam

[Glamdring]

I agree about the word tactical that is why I used quotes

The oldest mention of combat use of gun mounted lights I have found is in McBrides A Rifleman Went To War circa 1918 [WW I] on page 137-138 of my copy [my book is the one with Prologue by Jeff Cooper] he mentions a German that had one mounted on his Mauser. Tried it on against a raiding party but lost to the guy with a Colt handgun.

McBride doesn't make clear if the problem was simply using a light or possibly, from the way McBride words it, if he thought it required more speed or refinement of technique.

[C.R.Sam]

Saw ad for a commercial rig circa 1920s, went on revolver, had mustilens setup for dialing spot size.

Sam

[C.R.Sam]

Friendly fire isn't. To each his own but I will not cover a person till I AM going to shoot them. I have been on the receiving end of mistaken identity and don't recommend it.

Sam...sometimes bein short n skinny helps.

[Bogie]

Well, my truck has a 6-cell mag lite... Not necessarily for the light it provides, but if I break down in a bad section of town, and have to walk, it's a friendly thing to have...

[Spectre]

GD, if one fires, one has already ruined night vision.

I came back last week from a deer interdiction mission in E GA. Two nights in a row, an entire herd of wild hogs moved in around the base of my tree stand as I was about to climb down for the night. If I had a SureFire on my carbine, I would have popped at least one of the little buggers*. Since I only had a hand-held (and weak) 2-cell Maglite, I shot no pork on the hoof.

Next year, I will be ready.

PS- trying to line up the Maglite and my scoped 1895G was a MAJOR PITA.

*I say "little". The smallest of them was easily visible from 150 yards or more away. Big ones were at least 4x size of the li'l guys.

[Ken J. Good]

Glamdring posted: Has anyone tested the use of tactical lights with simmunitions or splat guns? Comments?



First started testing this concept with paint projectile training weapons and .357 revolvers with wax bullets on ships that were darkened (I mean you could not see the hand in front of your face) for the U.S. Navy approx. 15 years ago and have continued vigorously ever since.

Since that time, non-lethal projectile firing training weapons have significantly improved, thereby creating a reasonable facsimile of many armed confrontations. Using these training weapons, I have personally been in tens of thousands of "force-on-force" simulated engagements. I eventually learned something after being on the receiving end of the equation.

I started with Fleet Training Center, San Diego (10 years there), then as the co-founder of Combative Concepts Inc. and now as the current director of Training for the Sure-Fire Institute. The Institute has the specific mission of "enlightening" folks as to the hazards of improper light discipline as well as how to leverage the specific advantages of well designed lighting tools and lighting principles. Our training facility has walls that you can shoot through, various geometric and lighting problems to solve. We test all theories and techniques with live, shoot-back targets.

I also have been in numerous street and military situations/confrontations with firearms in low-light conditions with weapon mounted lights, all resulting in a no-shoot solution.

All that being said, I am still a student, ready to listen and learn.

I also have numerous written testimonies from officers and military members that have been in firefights where lighting tools were successfully employed and meant the difference in the fight following training received through the Sure-Fire Institute.

We have an axiom, "If Win the Light Fight First, then you will probably win the Gunfight”. Keep in mind, winning the light fight does not necessarily mean emitting with a light. Take all lighting conditions into account and then select the proper course of action. As some have posted, emitting at certain times would be nothing more than a deadly target indicator. Other times emitting is absolutely crucial. When and Where? That is the art and science of it all. “The Way is in Training” – Miyamoto Mushashi.

No mental ascension will help you find the proper rhythms, timings, angles, and durations required for proper deployment of light. You have to get in there a slug it out with armed aggressors or you are guessing.

The bottom-line, Weaponmounted lights can be a tremendous asset in terms of navigation, location of hazards, threat ID and control of known threats if properly applied. They can be devastatingly effective.

On the other hand, they can be serious liability in the hands of the unskilled.

I have a few articles specifically addressing lighting principles posted on http://surefire.com/institute.htm for those interested.
There is one article that details the results of not having a light mounted on a law enforcement deployed shotgun.

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good

[nbk2000]

Here's a direct link to the articles page that bypasses the bandwidth sucking intro page.

http://www.surefire.com/articles2.htm

I'll be the first to say that I've never been in a gun fight or am an "expert" in these sorts of things, but it seems to me that more is NOT always better.

For instance, house clearing. If you're using a blindingly bright light like a scorpion or surefire than this works against you because the light reflecting off the walls degrades your night vision and the bad guys have warning since they can see the light in the hallway long before you get to the room they are in.

I have a BRINKMANN long life LED light that cost $15 at wal-mart that is bright enough to clearly see a person at the end of my hallways, bright enough to illuminate a room when aimed at the ceiling without destroying my night vision, and dim enough that a BG won't see the light beam unless it's aimed right at him.

It's about 5 inches long, weighs a few ounces and will run for 2 days non-stop on 2 AAs. In addition it has a momentary switch that you can push on / release off.

When aimed right at the eyes it's plenty bright to ruin your nightvision. And when a 3" black velvet lined cardboard tube is slipped over the lens end, no one can see the light unless they are in it's beam so you don't give away your position.

[M1911]

Mr. Good:

I'm glad to see you joining the debate. I checked out your company's web page, and it appears that you only offer training to law enforcement officers. Is that correct? Or are some of your courses open to citizens with concealed carry permits?

M1911

[Glamdring]

Spec: Shooting will destroy night vision? I think that depends on caliber, load, and barrel length. I know that 22 RF's from a rifle don't give a noticable flash, while 10mm's do! Those are the only two rounds I have tested at night so far personally. But I would think that a pistol caliber carbine/SMG would not produce noticable muzzle flash either.

[Bogie]

1. Sorry, but I'd be leery of a weapon-mounted light, or at least would be darn careful about using it - One thing I recall reading (or maybe it came up during a chat with a then-ER Physician shooting bud... that's seeming more likely...) a while back was about the frequency in which shooters are disabled in gunfights by shots to the vicinity of the weapon - it seems folks unconsciously shoot toward the gun, not just the person holding it...

2. My .357 Winchester, when loaded with my fave load of a buncha 296 and 125 gr. Hornady XTPs, produces a big honkin' ball-o-flame...

[Spectre]

Mr. Good:

Welcome to the board. Your expertise will be welcome. (PS- you don't happen to need a full time OPFOR, do you? If you do, can we hold a force-on-force competition to determine who gets it? )

GD:

With what I shoot, most definitely. YOU try shooting a short-barreled, ported .45-70 at night! Or, an 18.5" shotgun! I have done some night/low light firing. Flash is also "fairly" significant with a Kel-Tec and almost any serious load.

[Glamdring]

Spec: What about your M1 carbine? Or the Sub 9?

[Ken J. Good]

M1911

Mr. Good:

I'm glad to see you joining the debate. I checked out your company's web page, and it appears that you only offer training to law enforcement officers. Is that correct? Or are some of your courses open to citizens with concealed carry permits?

M1911

Thanx. Mr. Good sounds so old....Ken is just great.

Our target audience is law enforcement, military, and professional security companies. One of my adjunct instructors does offer similar training through his private company. Contact me via e-mail if you are interested.

Spectre

Mr. Good:

Welcome to the board. Your expertise will be welcome. (PS- you don't happen to need a full time OPFOR, do you? If you do, can we hold a force-on-force competition to determine who gets it? )

Thank you as well. Lots of great activity here. Was that force-on-force competition going to be live-fire or with non-lethal projectiles....eveyone here seems to be pretty hard core so I thought I'd ask.


nbk2000:

You are absolutely right. Much of what you are referring to, we designate as navigation levels of light. Our new weaponlights will incorporate recessed LED's specifically for this purpose. Handheld flashlights with this capability are following as well.

Survival, Personal Self-Defence, Home Defence, Law Enforcement, Military - No one lighting tool can do all things for all people in all conditions.

That is why additional mission specific tools are being developed as I type.

[Spectre]

GD:

It's been a while since I fired the Sub-9 in low light. I AM sending it back to Kel-Tec to have a light mounted...one of these days.
After seeing what a .45-70 does, I think I will typically use the .45-70 instead of the M1 Carbine for HD. I will try low-light with both carbines when I have the chance. Just for you, buddy!

Ken:

I assume you typically use Simmunitions, but I'd go with any nonlethal munitions you guys are hard enough to use.


Incidentally, I just ordered a replacement lamp assembly for my 6P. It will give me 120 lumens, while still remaining within legal limits (6 Volt) for night hog hunting. Oh, yeah, I'm certain it will work great for defending my home, too!

[Ken J. Good]

Spectre:

To really reach out there with a 6-Volt Light and still have plenty of runtime, consider obtaining a Turbo-Head for your 6P. It takes the photons that would have left the area at acute angles and sends them right down the middle.

This creates a nice tight "hot spot" - This may be extremely useful for your application.

As far as projectiles, I've heard that some WWII German troops were exposed to Force-on-Force training using wood bullets and with full face helments, all part of an effort to teach young lads to line somebody up in the sights and squeeze the trigger. Given the historical statistics of the actual percentage of folks aiming bullets in a battlefield firefight, this made a tremendous amount of sense.

I don't think all survived the training....wood bullets...ouch.

[Bogie]

That sorta thing is sorta tough on the vampires...

[Ivanhoe]

I have a SureFire weaponlight on my nightstand Glock, with the 3v head. I have found that I can illuminate adequately at head level with the gun at low ready, due to the SureFire's excellent off-axis light pattern. I've practiced scanning and moving in my place at night, and with proper use of the momentary switch I just don't see a downside. No night vision loss, no safety issues, no fumbling with a handheld light or transitioning between Weaver/Harries to strong-hand/pistol + weak-hand/doorknob etc.

[Glamdring]

Spec: I am glad that you are putting the minor caliber's where they belong [in a support role ] Friends don't let friends shoot mouse guns you know
I look forward to your report on the carbines. Also you might want to think about trying some reduced loads with 500 grain lead bullets for low flash in your Guide Gun. If you used something like Paco's turtle load the powder should be all burned before it gets to the end of the barrel or porting.

[Spectre]

Heh. Edmund and Brad can use the .223's. For me, I like .25 and up.