Lowest recoil 9mm?

**Aguila Blanca** · October 13, 2018, 04:31 PM

I visited a friend this afternoon who happens to be a fellow NRA Pistol instructor. We got talking about what we each allow in our classes, and what we don't. For example, I use only dummy guns in the classroom (actually, blank firing replicas, because the actual dummy guns I've found aren't adequate to demonstrate the action). He uses real guns, and he just announces at the start of class "No guns, no ammo allowed in class." He acknowledges that he has no way of enforcing that. My concern is "that guy" who is going to have a 9mm round in his pocket, and who will eventually want to "just see if" it will fit one of the demonstrator guns ... and it will, and it'll go off.

On the other hand, when he was talking about moving students up from .22 rimfire to centerfire, and the fact that some newbies find even 9mm to be too much recoil. I mentioned that I have a small stock of 90- and 95-grain bullets intended for .380 ACP, and I download 9mm to .380 levels. He doesn't want to do that because he doesn't like the potential liability of using hand-loaded ammo in a classroom setting. He uses only factory ammunition.

He has a point. With that in mind, what's the absolute lowest power, lowest recoil 9mm ammo generally available?

I'm not asking for ways to tame recoil, such as using a heavier gun. I'm asking for what's the wimpiest commonly available 9mm ammo on the market?

HighValleyRanch · October 13, 2018, 04:37 PM

I'm thinking that any round that is wimpier than the standard loads is going to have funtioning problems and create more problems for the shooters than the recoil.

A friend gave me a ton of his reloads one christmas and they all were so under powered that every round caused a malfunction due to not being to cycle the action. I unloaded them all and now the brass is waiting for new reloads. But shows the point that unless you changed the recoil springs even factory low power loads may not work.

I also think that the lowere cycling time might induce more limp wristing than normal.

Jim Watson · October 13, 2018, 04:39 PM

A slow heavy bullet presents less FELT recoil.
I load 147s, the Federal Syntech 150 is getting popular with factory ammo IDPA competitors.

sigarms228 · October 13, 2018, 06:01 PM

I have always found Brass Blazer 115 and especially Federal Champion 115 to be soft shooting, widely available, and inexpensive.

Of course a proper grip goes a long way for good pistol control that can help mitigate shyness of recoil.

I wonder if some students would benefit from going from .22 to .380 and then to 9MM. The the M&P380 Shield EZ is one heck of a soft shooting pistol.

MisterCrabby · October 13, 2018, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

A slow heavy bullet presents less FELT recoil.
I load 147s, the Federal Syntech 150 is getting popular with factory ammo IDPA competitors.

This.

Or 158 grain Fiocchi.

MoArk Willy · October 13, 2018, 07:40 PM

Ammo aside, the less recoil will be felt with the heaviest gun.
A slower (less powder) cartridge with a heavier bullet will help as well.
Unfortunately in many cases the more comfortable you make it the less effective it could render the gun in a self defense situation. The more you practice the less you will notice the recoil. And if you don't practice with it you may as well not have it.

TunnelRat · October 13, 2018, 07:44 PM

Quote:

A slow heavy bullet presents less FELT recoil.
I load 147s, the Federal Syntech 150 is getting popular with factory ammo IDPA competitors.

I have to disagree with this. 147gr has noticeably more felt recoil to me, at least compared to a lot of the budget 115gr that is loaded weak.

JDBerg · October 13, 2018, 09:51 PM

IMHO, when you’re training newer shooters with 9mm semiautos, the ammo you’re using has to be able to reliably cycle the slide so it locks back on an empty mag. Novice shooters need to learn to release the slide on a loaded mag and avoid slingshotting until they gain a little more experience.

That previously mentioned Fed Champion promo ammo from Wally’s is probably the weakest ammo I know of anyway, and that ammo does not lock back on an empty mag with some of my guns unless I’m shooting one of my Glock nines. Otherwise, I’d use Blazer Brass or Fed American Eagle which almost always locks the slide on an empty mag.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 13, 2018, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoArk Willy

Ammo aside, the less recoil will be felt with the heaviest gun.

From my opening post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I'm not asking for ways to tame recoil, such as using a heavier gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoArk Willy

Unfortunately in many cases the more comfortable you make it the less effective it could render the gun in a self defense situation. The more you practice the less you will notice the recoil. And if you don't practice with it you may as well not have it.

Again, from the opening post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

On the other hand, when he was talking about moving students up from .22 rimfire to centerfire, and the fact that some newbies find even 9mm to be too much recoil. I mentioned that I have a small stock of 90- and 95-grain bullets intended for .380 ACP, and I download 9mm to .380 levels. He doesn't want to do that because he doesn't like the potential liability of using hand-loaded ammo in a classroom setting. He uses only factory ammunition.

This isn't about self defense. This is about making it easier to transition new students from rimfire to centerfire. That's ALL it's about.

TunnelRat · October 13, 2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Novice shooters need to learn to release the slide on a loaded mag and avoid slingshotting until they gain a little more experience.

Why?

**Aguila Blanca** · October 13, 2018, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDBerg

IMHO, when you’re training newer shooters with 9mm semiautos, the ammo you’re using has to be able to reliably cycle the slide so it locks back on an empty mag. Novice shooters need to learn to release the slide on a loaded mag and avoid slingshotting until they gain a little more experience.

The guns I use for class are used only for the classes. The recoil spring can easily be matched to the ammunition if that should be a problem. But, with any factory load, it's unlikely to be an issue.

JDBerg · October 14, 2018, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat:

Why?

Years ago at least, this was the way that the NRA Basic Pistol Safety Course was taught back when I took the course. Since the course didn’t teach tactical mag changes, the slide release method was considered to be faster than the slingshot method.

Pushing the slide release down generally requires less movement, and there is less of a requirement to change your grip. I say less because for people with smaller hands, or with bigger guns, they may have to change their grips to reach the slide release.

I have XL sized hands so I can reach the slide release with ease on any of my firearms.

I cut my teeth with a Sig P228. My strong hand thumb could reach the release, and I could engage the slide release without a single change in my grip.

I am well aware that this isn’t the case for everyone, but in a classroom with a lot of novice shooters, aren’t you usually taught one way and perhaps shown the other way, then told that your preference comes with experience(?)

That being said, in many situations, folks will often have to change their firing grip very little to get the weapon in action. Even if you have to change your grip you are usually creating less movement than using the slingshot technique to send the slide into battery.

This method also has the advantage of requiring only one hand to utilize while staying almost on target. This can be an important consideration for those with potential hand disabilities.

TunnelRat · October 14, 2018, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Since the course didn’t teach tactical mag changes, the slide release method was considered to be faster than the slingshot method.

I'm failing to see what tactical mag changes have to do with teaching how to release the slide given that on a tactical mag change you don't need to release the slide.

Quote:

I am well aware that this isn’t the case for everyone, but in a classroom with a lot of novice shooters, aren’t you usually taught one way and perhaps shown the other way, then told that your preference comes with experience(?)

Totally agree. I was just confused by your phrasing as I don't feel like you need more experience to learn the slingshot method.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 14, 2018, 02:49 AM

NRA Basic Pistol is a BASIC pistol class. We teach students the basics of how to use a handgun, with the emphasis on safety so they won't go out and hurt themselves or someone else. Teaching them how to "slingshot" the slide to load the first round is about as basic as you can get.

JDBerg · October 14, 2018, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca:

Teaching them how to "slingshot" the slide to load the first round is about as basic as you can get.

I can tell you that back when I took the NRA Basic Pistol class, we weren’t taught to slingshot a reload. The instructor wanted to see that you were reloading the gun after it locked back on an empty mag, then use the slide release to reload the pistol. Maybe it was this instructors bias to do it this way, and maybe they have changed the way they teach the course after so many years.

74A95 · October 14, 2018, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

NRA Basic Pistol is a BASIC pistol class. We teach students the basics of how to use a handgun, with the emphasis on safety so they won't go out and hurt themselves or someone else. Teaching them how to "slingshot" the slide to load the first round is about as basic as you can get.

Does the NRA course specifically require you to teach releasing the slide in a certain way for Basic Pistol?

sigarms228 · October 14, 2018, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

NRA Basic Pistol is a BASIC pistol class. We teach students the basics of how to use a handgun, with the emphasis on safety so they won't go out and hurt themselves or someone else. Teaching them how to "slingshot" the slide to load the first round is about as basic as you can get.

I definitely agree on that. A couple years ago I went to the range with a couple acquaintances who wanted to go shooting as they had not tried out their new pistols yet. Both struggled when it came time to put a round in the chamber after a magazine change with the slide locked back. Both also started turned their pistol sideways to locate and work the slide release , which I immediately stopped them, and told them to always keep their pistol pointed down range and I showed them how to slingshot the slide. They both agreed that was a much better method for them to load a round into the chamber.

However the way I read the OP is that the question asked was what commonly available 9MM rounds would have the least recoil for the benefit of training new shooters so that they would be less likely to be intimidated by the 9MM and possible consequences such as flinching. I did not get that concerns about not having enough power to properly cycle a pistol was a factor and most likely would be evaluated by the instructors as potential ammo choices were tested.

Areoflyer09 · October 14, 2018, 02:31 PM

I don’t think there is a single answer to the question regarding the ammo choices.

Felt recoil is a subjective issue. What one of us feels is softer, another may not. We’ve already seen this in this thread, some preferring 147gr and others preferring 115gr budget options. Only the person shooting at that moment can tell you if the felt recoil is too high. Even reloads will run into this phenomenon.

sigarms228 · October 14, 2018, 06:32 PM

Well I can understand that some might prefer a slower and heavier round versus a lighter and faster round, but when it comes to the same bullet weight in my experiences the lower powered loads like Blazer and Federal Champion do have noticeably less felt recoil than stouter loads like Speer Lawman. I can't imagine any one new to pistols just starting out with 9MM looking for lowest recoil rounds possible would prefer Speer Lawman 115 over Federal Champion 115.

Bart Noir · October 15, 2018, 06:37 PM

One answer may be to use a pistol which recoils less, for a given load of 9mm. Walther claims that their CCP pistol has less recoil, due to having a gas-delay system like the H&K P-7 design. I have no actual experience with this so can't tell you if this is just sales hokum.

Walther CCP

Bart Noir

Dano4734 · October 15, 2018, 06:50 PM

I don’t know i think my glock 43 is very tame with all flavors of 9 mm my mrs shoots it and she is a newbie who fired maybe one other gun in her life. At the range she said i like this

**Aguila Blanca** · October 15, 2018, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart Noir

One answer may be to use a pistol which recoils less, for a given load of 9mm.

See posts #1 and #9.

After doing a bunch of research on-line, I've collected enough information and run enough numbers to document what I already (sort of) knew, which is that muzzle energy doesn't track directly with IPSC/IDPA power factor. There are also formulas out there for calculating recoil energy but, since those require entering both the weight of the firearm and the weight of the powder charge, that's beyond the scope of this inquiry. So I'm basically looking for ammo with lower muzzle velocity and a low power factor.

The ones with the lowest muzzle energy are PPU 147-gr, Speer Lawman 147-gr,
Remington UMC 147-gr, and Winchester Super Suppressed 147-gr. Lowest power factor includes Federal American Eagle 115-gr, Remington UMC 115-gr, Hornady American Gunner 115-gr, CCI Blazer 115-gr, and Speer Lawman 124-gr.

That's a starting point for a class shopping list.

sigarms228 · October 15, 2018, 11:28 PM

This might be of help as far as PF goes it is a pretty extensive chart though I don't know how accurate it is.

Federal Champion 115 and UMC 115 are near the very bottom with Blazer 115 just a little higher up.

https://3guncalgary.com/2018/04/11/p...factory-loads/

**Aguila Blanca** · October 16, 2018, 12:51 AM

^^^ Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to compare that to the results of my research.

scoobysnacker · October 16, 2018, 03:24 AM

I've got a lot of different fullsize 9mm's. I've shot all sorts of ammo, from really hot (Yavex Turkish in 124gr), to really mild.

Blazer Brass seems to me, to be the best mild load. It's soft, and consistent. If it's a gun I don't want to beat up and stress, I use that.

October 13, 2018, 04:37 PM	#2
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	I'm thinking that any round that is wimpier than the standard loads is going to have funtioning problems and create more problems for the shooters than the recoil. A friend gave me a ton of his reloads one christmas and they all were so under powered that every round caused a malfunction due to not being to cycle the action. I unloaded them all and now the brass is waiting for new reloads. But shows the point that unless you changed the recoil springs even factory low power loads may not work. I also think that the lowere cycling time might induce more limp wristing than normal. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

October 13, 2018, 06:01 PM	#4
sigarms228 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Posts: 1,768	I have always found Brass Blazer 115 and especially Federal Champion 115 to be soft shooting, widely available, and inexpensive. Of course a proper grip goes a long way for good pistol control that can help mitigate shyness of recoil. I wonder if some students would benefit from going from .22 to .380 and then to 9MM. The the M&P380 Shield EZ is one heck of a soft shooting pistol. __________________ “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” ― Benjamin Franklin Last edited by sigarms228; October 13, 2018 at 06:14 PM.

October 13, 2018, 09:51 PM	#8
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	IMHO, when you’re training newer shooters with 9mm semiautos, the ammo you’re using has to be able to reliably cycle the slide so it locks back on an empty mag. Novice shooters need to learn to release the slide on a loaded mag and avoid slingshotting until they gain a little more experience. That previously mentioned Fed Champion promo ammo from Wally’s is probably the weakest ammo I know of anyway, and that ammo does not lock back on an empty mag with some of my guns unless I’m shooting one of my Glock nines. Otherwise, I’d use Blazer Brass or Fed American Eagle which almost always locks the slide on an empty mag. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live Last edited by JDBerg; October 13, 2018 at 10:13 PM.

October 14, 2018, 06:32 PM	#19
sigarms228 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Posts: 1,768	Well I can understand that some might prefer a slower and heavier round versus a lighter and faster round, but when it comes to the same bullet weight in my experiences the lower powered loads like Blazer and Federal Champion do have noticeably less felt recoil than stouter loads like Speer Lawman. I can't imagine any one new to pistols just starting out with 9MM looking for lowest recoil rounds possible would prefer Speer Lawman 115 over Federal Champion 115. __________________ “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” ― Benjamin Franklin

October 15, 2018, 06:37 PM	#20
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	One answer may be to use a pistol which recoils less, for a given load of 9mm. Walther claims that their CCP pistol has less recoil, due to having a gas-delay system like the H&K P-7 design. I have no actual experience with this so can't tell you if this is just sales hokum. Walther CCP Bart Noir __________________ Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!

October 13, 2018, 04:31 PM	#1
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Lowest recoil 9mm? I visited a friend this afternoon who happens to be a fellow NRA Pistol instructor. We got talking about what we each allow in our classes, and what we don't. For example, I use only dummy guns in the classroom (actually, blank firing replicas, because the actual dummy guns I've found aren't adequate to demonstrate the action). He uses real guns, and he just announces at the start of class "No guns, no ammo allowed in class." He acknowledges that he has no way of enforcing that. My concern is "that guy" who is going to have a 9mm round in his pocket, and who will eventually want to "just see if" it will fit one of the demonstrator guns ... and it will, and it'll go off. On the other hand, when he was talking about moving students up from .22 rimfire to centerfire, and the fact that some newbies find even 9mm to be too much recoil. I mentioned that I have a small stock of 90- and 95-grain bullets intended for .380 ACP, and I download 9mm to .380 levels. He doesn't want to do that because he doesn't like the potential liability of using hand-loaded ammo in a classroom setting. He uses only factory ammunition. He has a point. With that in mind, what's the absolute lowest power, lowest recoil 9mm ammo generally available? I'm not asking for ways to tame recoil, such as using a heavier gun. I'm asking for what's the wimpiest commonly available 9mm ammo on the market? Last edited by Aguila Blanca; October 13, 2018 at 09:57 PM.

October 13, 2018, 04:39 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	A slow heavy bullet presents less FELT recoil. I load 147s, the Federal Syntech 150 is getting popular with factory ammo IDPA competitors.

October 13, 2018, 07:40 PM	#6
MoArk Willy Member Join Date: June 15, 2018 Posts: 93	Ammo aside, the less recoil will be felt with the heaviest gun. A slower (less powder) cartridge with a heavier bullet will help as well. Unfortunately in many cases the more comfortable you make it the less effective it could render the gun in a self defense situation. The more you practice the less you will notice the recoil. And if you don't practice with it you may as well not have it.

October 14, 2018, 02:49 AM	#14
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	NRA Basic Pistol is a BASIC pistol class. We teach students the basics of how to use a handgun, with the emphasis on safety so they won't go out and hurt themselves or someone else. Teaching them how to "slingshot" the slide to load the first round is about as basic as you can get.

October 14, 2018, 02:31 PM	#18
Areoflyer09 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2017 Posts: 300	I don’t think there is a single answer to the question regarding the ammo choices. Felt recoil is a subjective issue. What one of us feels is softer, another may not. We’ve already seen this in this thread, some preferring 147gr and others preferring 115gr budget options. Only the person shooting at that moment can tell you if the felt recoil is too high. Even reloads will run into this phenomenon.

October 15, 2018, 06:50 PM	#21
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	I don’t know i think my glock 43 is very tame with all flavors of 9 mm my mrs shoots it and she is a newbie who fired maybe one other gun in her life. At the range she said i like this

October 15, 2018, 11:28 PM	#23
sigarms228 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Posts: 1,768	This might be of help as far as PF goes it is a pretty extensive chart though I don't know how accurate it is. Federal Champion 115 and UMC 115 are near the very bottom with Blazer 115 just a little higher up. https://3guncalgary.com/2018/04/11/p...factory-loads/ __________________ “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” ― Benjamin Franklin

October 16, 2018, 12:51 AM	#24
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	^^^ Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to compare that to the results of my research.

October 16, 2018, 03:24 AM	#25
scoobysnacker Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2015 Posts: 235	I've got a lot of different fullsize 9mm's. I've shot all sorts of ammo, from really hot (Yavex Turkish in 124gr), to really mild. Blazer Brass seems to me, to be the best mild load. It's soft, and consistent. If it's a gun I don't want to beat up and stress, I use that.