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Old May 2, 2011, 07:40 PM   #1
CHayworth
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Help out a "New Reloader" and resolve some of many questions :-)

Basically I have got interested in reloading one way or another and have so many questions. Every time I look up to answer a question i always then have more questions and then i hit a dead spot so to speak. I hear so many different people saying one thing and others saying the opposite or something different.

First off just to state what I'm reloading:
I bought a new S&W M&P15 OR not too long back.
A Ruger P95 9mm
and a friends Ruger SR9 9mm and his savage .204

So far with the help of a friend i feel like for the most part i understand the reloading equipment fairly well.

But.. what it boils down to is. I want to reload the "perfect" ammunition that shoots "perfect". I know that is a far stretch but I wanna reload every round as close to perfect as possible. Down to perfect brass, perfect powder charge, and perfect bullets etc.

I know they have powder chargers, that you set your powder at a certain weight, but they are not perfect from reviews of products. I know you set the charge, then check it ever so often, like every ten loads or 3 loads. but I'm worried that the .1-2 grain difference is gonna make my groups that much bigger, and especially when the distance gets further out. I'm probably just too paranoid or something (perfectionist) lol.

Q1: A big question I have is MOLY coating the bullets for my ar15 and for the .204 or any rifle really.

Q2: then while on my ar15, I'm not sure to load .223 or 5.56 brass. there is a difference between them, and from what i understand, is that in 5.56 the leade is further and also that the brass is a tad thicker, I have also noticed 5.56 ammunition being slightly lower in velocity (my guess due to the thicker brass). So People say shooting .223 in 5.56 chamber has a slight loss in accuracy. I have no preference between the two, just wanna shoot the one that shoots best out of my rifle.

Q3: Full size die or neck sizing die on my ar15. I hear neck sizing the brass when it is already fire formed to your chamber, generally gives you better accuracy. I would love to do this for my ar15. Then however, I read that you should always use a full size die in semi autos. So could I just neck size my brass for my ar15? If I did.. what is some of the results that could occur? Say its the oh idk 5th time reloading the brass. and I'm having problems with it chambering all the way. If i didn't notice the round wasn't all the way into the chamber, could my gun still fire, then causing severe damage to me and rifle? etc. also brass getting stuck in chamber? cause from what i understand is, semi extractors are not as tough as bolt action extractors. etc.

Q4: What is the best way to get very accurate powder measurements. measuring each load on a measuring device, such as a electronic scale or getting one of those expensive powder chargers that measure it each time. if the ammo calls for 15grains of powder i want to be able to have 15grains in each round, not 14.9 or 15.1 lol.

Q5: How do I know what is the best bullet seating depth? will the bullet manufacturer tell me where it is ideal at, and then i just have to tinker with it and try it out till i find the sweet spot? This also becomes an issue with the ar15.. cause i still have to be able to load them into a magazine.

Q6: Trimming brass/prepping brass. To have really consistent brass, would you wanna trim the case every time you reload back to the original OAL. Does the case length make a difference? Also talking about OAL, for best consistent ammo, would you also measure each rounds OAL when fully loaded?

Q7: Different crimps? Factory Crimp.. and taper crimps? whats the difference? what is each used for? I''m just completely clueless on this question.

Q8: General question on dies. whats difference between Competition dies and normal cheapo dies and Custom grade dies, national match dies, small base sizer dies and then the use of Mic Dies example "RCBS Precision Mic 223 Remington"

Q9: Powder. How do you pick your powder? go by reloading books? or what i have been doing, but have not reloaded yet, is search in forums for what people recommend for a certain load.
I think that's most of my questions, I'm sure I will have more questions on feedback, just hope you all bear with me through this all lol. Appreciate all help. Thanks
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Old May 2, 2011, 08:57 PM   #2
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Suggestion

Alot of your questions are answered in Lymans reloading manual .Sounds as if your ready to start reading !! Read it twice ,maybe 3 times then you`ll have information to make your equipment choices .

No matter how many questions ya ask ya gotta crawl before running !! so to speak .
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Old May 2, 2011, 09:22 PM   #3
Lost Sheep
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Not quite

Welcome to handloading and thanks for asking our advice.

What GP100Man writes is essentially correct, but in the final analysis, most of your questions (not all, but the very critical ones, like seating depth, etc) are only answerable through judicious experimentation. The experimentation is to determine exactly how your rifle performs with various (specific) combinations of primer, powder type/brand, powder amount, bullet (type, weight, shape, hardness, etc), crimp strength, and a myriad of other variables.

This is why handloading may be distinguished from reloading. Crafting ammo tailored for your gun is a far cry from loading good ammo that goes "bang" every time for less than it costs to buy retail or wholesale. Both are legitimate reasons for loading, but the goals (though overlapping) are different.

Lymans and Lee's reloading manuals are good places to start. The "ABC's of Reloading" is even better. It is an excellent introduction. Extend your knowledge with the more rigorous manuals like Lyman's and Lee's and others and then extend furthur by Googling "internal ballistics" and go from there.

The "ABC's" describes the process. Lyman's describes (with a different writing style) and provides recipes for loading. Lee's describes the process with yet another editorial style and also load recipes, as do most of the other manuals around.

After reading 4 or 5 manuals and loading some rounds and observing the performance, you will start focusing in on specific questions, as they become important.

Right now, I suggest focusing on safety and learning the physical process of loading. After you have that practice, then get into the "What effect does seating depth have?" and "If I change primer brands, what difference do I see?"

From your questions, I think you have embarked on a hobby that will give you decades of enjoyment and challenge (the good kind).

Good luck.
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Old May 2, 2011, 09:27 PM   #4
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Good Lord.... Even HE took 6 days to get it even mostly right. (Then HE and Noah still agreed to start all over fresh.) You might expect to take a litte longer.

That said...

Quote:
I want to reload the "perfect" ammunition that shoots "perfect".
Never happen. Even "precise" cartridge combos are subject to the vagueries of chance and stochastic processes. Your challenge is to find a "mostly better" recipe... and realize even then that conditions change with the phase of the moon and whether you cut your grass that week.

Quote:
I'm worried that the .1-2 grain difference is gonna make my groups that much bigger,...
Hatcher found the Army's best match ammunition varied as much as ± a grain(+). Naturally closer is better -- that takes an electronic scale (which while close, still isn't "perfect".)

Quote:
Full size die or neck sizing die on my ar15[?] I hear neck sizing the brass when it is already fire formed to your chamber, generally gives you better accuracy.
You do NOT neck size autoloaders. You full size every time or risk those "stochastic processes" biting you in the a$$ with an out-of-battery slamfire. (which is bad)

Quote:
What is the best way to get very accurate powder measurements?
op cit electronic scale. Opinions vary (as Patrick Swayze said), but the RCBS ChargeMaster is the industry standard.

Quote:
How do I know what is the best bullet seating depth?
You don't. Only the rifle knows. And it demands burning sacrifices (literally) before giving up its secrets. Remember, you ain't HE, so plan on spending some (a lot of) trial & error time at the range.)

Quote:
...what's difference between Competition dies and normal cheapo dies and Custom grade dies, national match dies, small base sizer dies
Competition dies give you micrometer control over neck sizing [if you are running a bolt action] and seating depth. But neither does you any good unless you have established the distance-to-lands baseline for each bullet design. Plan on buying a good digital micrometer and a set of ogive/OAL comparators to go on it. (But starting out, RCBS dies are definitely upper-upper middle)

Quote:
Trimming brass/prepping brass.
Most pistol case never need trimming. Most high-powered rifles cases need eventual trimming if/when/before they grow beyond max length (and susequent interference fit where the throat/chamber chokes down -- raising pressure -- which is bad.) Trimmer-type selection arguements eventually lead to bar fights. Get the Giraud Power Trimmer and buy everyone else drinks.

Powder selection: Get both the Lyman 49th manual and Sierra's. Look for their "suggested" accuracy loads, start well below max, and realize that their test rifle's stochastic processes are different from your rifle's stochastic processes. Buy at least half the powder types they suggest across the board. You might as well learn now that, like women, none are perfect and you have to kiss a lot of frogs....

Last edited by mehavey; May 3, 2011 at 11:13 AM.
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Old May 3, 2011, 12:34 AM   #5
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As others said, read the manuals 3x first. below I answered some of your questions with my practices, others practices may vary- a plinker will probably do a lot less, a benchrest shooter will probably do a lot more.


Quote:
Q1: A big question I have is MOLY coating the bullets for my ar15 and for the .204 or any rifle really.
Don't.
Moly is ok if you plan on shooting more than a 100 rounds in a sitting without cleaning the bore in between, if you have a high quality barrel with, even that is debateable. Other than that, there are more downsides than upsides. Oddly enough, the only people I see shooting moly bullets tend to be overly fanatical about cleaning their bores. I've even seen guys who were shooting moly bullets and cleaning after every 3-4 rounds or so, which defeats their purpose.

Quote:
I know they have powder chargers, that you set your powder at a certain weight, but they are not perfect from reviews of products. I know you set the charge, then check it ever so often, like every ten loads or 3 loads. but I'm worried that the .1-2 grain difference is gonna make my groups that much bigger, and especially when the distance gets further out. I'm probably just too paranoid or something (perfectionist) lol.
There are two camps on this one, volumetric versus weight charging. A volume of powder is never going to change, the same volume of powder will fill the same case the same way every time (well, long drop tubes will compact the powder a bit, but that's a different story). Weighing every charge has its merits too, but I prefer to use a powder measure and ignore those +/- 0.1gr differences- they make no difference that I've ever seen. You'll have to find your own way on this one. I'd suggest starting with weighing each charge, then experiment with volumetric charging as your shooting volume goes up.

Quote:
Q2: then while on my ar15, I'm not sure to load .223 or 5.56 brass. there is a difference between them, and from what i understand, is that in 5.56 the leade is further and also that the brass is a tad thicker, I have also noticed 5.56 ammunition being slightly lower in velocity (my guess due to the thicker brass). So People say shooting .223 in 5.56 chamber has a slight loss in accuracy. I have no preference between the two, just wanna shoot the one that shoots best out of my rifle.
The difference is in 556 loading and the AR-15 chambers. Shooting .223 in a 556 chamber isn't going to lose you any accuracy over shooting 556 in a 556 chamber If you want the best accuracy with the ability to still shoot 556 ammo (actually better for taking advantage of using hotter loads than a 223 chamber can handle) get a barrel with the Wylde chamber. 556 vs 223 brass doesn't matter if you are reloading. The more important thing is consistancy of the brass.

Quote:
Q3: Full size die or neck sizing die on my ar15. I hear neck sizing the brass when it is already fire formed to your chamber, generally gives you better accuracy. I would love to do this for my ar15. Then however, I read that you should always use a full size die in semi autos. So could I just neck size my brass for my ar15?
noooo.
Neck sizing is ok for bolt rifles, not ok for autoloaders. You could end upwith a situation where the brass almost chambers but fires out of battery, turning your nice rifle into a smoking mass of twisted metal. I would add, that you also need a cartridge headspace guage, I use a stoney point set (Now hornady Brand), but other brands work well too (RCBS, Wilson, etc). You also don't want to use a full length sizing die, screw it down 1/4 turn past contact with the ram, per instructions, either. I could write a thesis on why, but I always direct people to a website where someone else has put together an excellent explanation, complete with pics: http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading...dingindex.html
http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading.../resizing.html
http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading...g/casemic.html
http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading...yresizing.html

Quote:
Q4: What is the best way to get very accurate powder measurements. measuring each load on a measuring device, such as a electronic scale or getting one of those expensive powder chargers that measure it each time. if the ammo calls for 15grains of powder i want to be able to have 15grains in each round, not 14.9 or 15.1 lol
I mentioned measuring powder in one of the above questions. Most of my reloading is for High Power Rifle. I use a cheapo Lee Perfect Powder Measure mounted on a turret press(There are other good measures, I have a few, even better measures, but they cost a lot). Its accurate enough that when I dump an occasionsal charged case, the weight is within the thickness of the line of the setpoint on my beam balance. The rifle and load shoot boringly sub-moa 10 shot groups every time I test a new lot of powder or a new lot of brass. There is probably a +/-0.1 gr of difference between charges which is within the accuracy tolerances of most balances used for reloading anyway.

Quote:
Q5: How do I know what is the best bullet seating depth? will the bullet manufacturer tell me where it is ideal at, and then i just have to tinker with it and try it out till i find the sweet spot? This also becomes an issue with the ar15.. cause i still have to be able to load them into a magazine.
2.250" should fit in a magazine, sometimes you can cheat a bit but it doesn't make much sense to. Some bullets have a bit of variation in the ogive which will give you a bit of variation in OALs, which means you have to set your seating die a little shorter to get them all in the magazine. If you want to shoot VLDs for long range, you load them right up to the lands and single load them. Standard tangent ogive bullets aren't too sensitive to seating length, but they can be fine tuned anyhow, while secant ogive VLDs tend to like being intimate with the lands or very close to them.

Quote:
Q6: Trimming brass/prepping brass. To have really consistent brass, would you wanna trim the case every time you reload back to the original OAL. Does the case length make a difference? Also talking about OAL, for best consistent ammo, would you also measure each rounds OAL when fully loaded?
Trimming brass is important to keep from overpressure situations when the brass get too long, and for consistant crimps. Your seating die, more often than not, is going to press on the ogive of the bullet, OAL will vary a bit depending on the quality of the bullets(I get a variation of about 2 thou with SMKs and about 5 thou with Hornady match bullets due to how clean or not the tim is extruded), but the jump to the lands will be the same (using a bullet comparator will verify this), so there's little effect on accuracy.
Also- use a VLD chamfer tool and take make a good chamfer on the casemouth. .223 brass is delicate and you want the bullet to slide in as easy as possible so you don't buckle the case.Also debur the casemouth.
I also outside neck turn my brass, its supposed to allow the brass to align more concentrically in the chamber, though I haven't done any testing myself- its something to do to keep me out of trouble in the winter at least. I also uniform the flash holes- this only needs to be done once in the life of a piece of brass, and is probably overkill to start with.

Quote:
Q7: Different crimps? Factory Crimp.. and taper crimps? whats the difference? what is each used for? I''m just completely clueless on this question.
I only crimp handgun cartridges, and really don't reload them much. There is some contention with autoloaders, but I get better accuracy in the M1 garand and AR-15 with no crimp, and haven't had any problems with bullet setback. If you need a crimp on a rifle round, you are shooting heavy bullets in a magnum, or you have problems with your brass.In handgun rounds, they are an absolute neccessity.

Quote:
Q8: General question on dies. whats difference between Competition dies and normal cheapo dies and Custom grade dies, national match dies, small base sizer dies and then the use of Mic Dies example "RCBS Precision Mic 223 Remington"
Price.
The competition dies have a micrometer on them which is handy for adjusting seating depths to account for throat wear, but is entirely unneccessary. Small base dies are useful for auto loaders, some say necessary, I don't. If you buy bulk 556 military brass, you will need one if you want the brass to fit in your rifle after resizing. There is really no downside to using them.

Quote:
Q9: Powder. How do you pick your powder? go by reloading books? or what i have been doing, but have not reloaded yet, is search in forums for what people recommend for a certain load.
Reloading books.
There are some powders that work really well for some cartridge/bullet combinations that are really well known, but don't go off of internet reloading data unless it comes from a powder manufacturer's website.

Last edited by cracked butt; May 3, 2011 at 12:40 AM.
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Old May 3, 2011, 06:31 AM   #6
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Man, these are some very good replies to your question!

Don't worry yourself to death over it though. If you are like me, once you have the equipment in front of you, along with a good reloading manual, you'll pick up the process pretty fast. (You have already thought it out pretty good and asked very good questions!)

Once you get it (the basics) down, you'll be able to fine tune everything to where it suits your needs. Keep really good records and work from them.

Make your first ten rounds, fire them, decide what you like/don't like and adjust from there. You may have to try several different powder/bullet combination before you get them dialed in to where you are happy.

I have several cans of powder on my shelve that I tried and do not care for.

I think your on the right path and know most of the answers. Keep learning and asking for confirmation on what you are thinking. Welcome to The Firing Line. Keep asking those questions and these guys will help you out.
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Old May 3, 2011, 07:44 AM   #7
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You will never load perfect ammunition. Every measurement has a tolerance.
1. Don't. This is for the experienced handloader.
2. What is stamped on your barrel? The brass is the same for both. The main difference is the pressure produced by the loaded round.
3. Full length resize for all semi-automatic rifles.
4. All measurements have a tolerance. I use a beam balance for all of my weighing. If you use an electronic balance, you must use a good one.
5. Ammunition must feed through the magazine. Seating depth must be determined by experimentation. Each rifle can be different.
6. The frequency of trimming brass depends on your rifle, caliber, and load. If you crimp the ammunition, trim every time.
7. Roll crimp for ammunition that does not headspace on the mouth of the case. Taper crimp for ammunition that headspaces on the mouth. Taper crimping can also be used for all ammunition. If you use your seating die to crimp, do it in two stages. Seat all the rounds then readjust the die and crimp all the rounds. It is not necessary to measure the COL after adjucting the seating die.
8. Tolerances and accuracy are the main differences.
9. Do not trust any data that is not published in the reloading manuals. Never start at the maximum or near maximun published loads.

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Old May 3, 2011, 08:02 AM   #8
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Chayworth - Welcome to handloading !! The above posts are good, can only say - be very careful and start simple, then refine your loads. This takes time and can be a lot of fun.
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Old May 3, 2011, 08:37 AM   #9
Jim Watson
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All very interesting and educational, BUT:

Ultrafine (and slow) reloading processes will not make a noticeable difference in service weapon ammunition. Your AR MIGHT benefit but it might not. MY regular AR can definitely tell a difference with target or varmint bullets instead of FMJ. But the extra work I put into ammo for the AR I converted into a Long Range rifle does not pay off in the standard gun.

It depends on your application. Are you going to shoot National Match at up to 600 yards? Give it the best. If you are going to go tackytickle, it can get by with less.

Your friend's .204 would gain from the very best ammunition but you should NOT be loading for somebody else. You should especially not be LEARNING to load on somebody else's gun. If you blow up your gun, you will be out some money. If you blow up his gun you will be out a friend and maybe a judgement in a lawsuit if he is so much as scratched.
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Old May 3, 2011, 11:21 AM   #10
CHayworth
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Well thank you to everyone. I just ordered the Lyman, spear and lee reloading books and will be reading those as soon as they arrive. Thanks everyone for your replys. I know it wasn't the shortest post in the world. Now I do have one question to ask now. What is" the lands" ? My assumption is the jump from chamber to rifling. Not sure though. If anyone would feel free to post some reloading lingo I would also appreciate that knowledge thanks for everyones input.
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Old May 3, 2011, 01:06 PM   #11
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" I want to reload the "perfect" ammunition that shoots "perfect"."

Everyone does, but it isn't nearly as simple as many noobs believe. You have a LOT to learn. Like, "lands" and "rifling" are the same thing. And no simplistic step such as "neck sizing" guarantees any result. A LOT more than precision powder charges goes into accuracy, no matter how precisely the ammo is made it won't shoot well if it's not individually tuned to the specific firearm. The only way to get powder charges exactly the same is to count the kernels...but that's not practical, nor would it automatically improve accuracy if you did.

Read and DIGEST your new books. Learn to do just the basics of reloading on a couple thousand rounds; then you MAY be ready to start learning some advanced load development and reloading tecniques.
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Old May 3, 2011, 02:53 PM   #12
CHayworth
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Well I been looking at the different brand names of brass and have read all sorts of reviews on them. Just wondering what brass you experienced loaders prefer. I like the sounds of Lapua and Norma but they are up there on the pricing. I liked the generals good reviews on Remington and Winchester brass and more in my favorable price range. I have also looked at the Lake City brass, reviews say its not pretty but uniform and consistent. I have alot (about 600) rounds of the laalready brass already. Some once fired out of my ar and rest still in the federal packaged fully loaded ammunition. From all of those it looks as if it had been once fired before federal got a hold of them. Reason I say that is they have dents in them as if they had been stepped on in gravel. So what's everyones opinion on brass? I also realize I don't need nice brass yet till I get use to reloading. Thanks everyone.
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Old May 3, 2011, 03:13 PM   #13
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all info. you received from these folks needs to be digested comp. like they say, welcome to a world of its own. cjs like the duke said, keep up the good work, you will make cpl. in five or six years.
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Old May 3, 2011, 03:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Reason I say that is they have dents in them as if they had been stepped on in gravel
I get dents about 1/2 down the body of my .223 brass- its the brass banging against the ejection port on its way out. Doesn't hurt a thing. My M1 Garand puts a little smiley face on the case head, with the exception of the last round in the clip. If nothing else, its another easy way to differentiate my brass from the guy's on the line next to me

Haven't used Lake City much. can't comment.
I use Winchester Brass in the AR-15. Not sue if its the best, but its become a habit, holds up pretty well, is fairly consistant, and makes accurate loads.
I've used PRVIrass, but was getting case neck splits after about 3 reloads.

I don't use Norma brass for anything, but use lapua in some of my bolt actions. If you by lapua, you are really saving yourself the hassle of sorting cases by weight, neck turning, primer pocket/flash hole uniforming, etc. Its top shelf brass. OTOH, If I'm only looking to match up 20 cases or so for a bolt action, its much cheaper to buy winchester or R-P brass and pick some brass out that matches eachother.
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Old May 3, 2011, 03:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
What is" the lands" ?
"The Lands" are the raised ridges left in the barrel after the grooves have been cut. "Distance-to-lands" is the measure from bolt face to the effective start of those lands when the bolt is closed. Determining exactly what that distance is requires something akin to a Hornday Overall Length gauge.
http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/...yoal/oal-1.htm

Each bullet design's particular shape will determine how far out of the case that bullet can be seated before hitting those lands. Seating the bullet deeper into the case and away from the lands (a usual 0.005" - 0.050") is standard practice. Just exactly how far off the lands is a trial & error process.

For your purpose, Winchester brass is the best buy.
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Old May 3, 2011, 07:34 PM   #16
CHayworth
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Actually Crackedbutt, its not something my rifle is doing to it, it is packaged like that, fully loaded ammunition with the dents in it, and it actually is dirty, can wipe dust and gunk off with a oiled rag. I am most certain the brass has had to of been shot once before already. but idk.
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Old May 8, 2011, 01:56 PM   #17
CHayworth
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I have read all three reloading manuals and must say, by far the lyman reloading book is by far my favorite out of the three. Good reading and great reloading data. Can't wait to get started.
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Old May 10, 2011, 01:58 AM   #18
CHayworth
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Ok needing some peoples advice and opinions. I been looking at turret presses. I like the idea that I could set up each plate for a specific load, and when I wanna load another one. I just have to swap turret plates. Don't have to worry about adjusting anything. On the cons I read that the turret plate has some play.
Specificly the lee classic 4 turret. So im not sure how much that affects accuracy.

So input please. :-)
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Old May 10, 2011, 02:17 AM   #19
Lost Sheep
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Part of the design (according to Lee Precisioni)

There has to be some play in order for the turret to be able to turn. If it was a tight fit, it would bind.

The trick is that the press and dies are adjusted with the play taken into account.

Check out this thread, which discusses your question
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/3414...ret-users.html
or if the linkd does not work, paste this into your browser
rugerforum.net/reloading/34148-question-lee-classic-turret-users.html

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Old May 12, 2011, 01:45 PM   #20
CHayworth
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alright perfect, thank you. learning great info here. hopefully it can help others too.
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:58 PM   #21
cracked butt
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Quote:
On the cons I read that the turret plate has some play.
Specificly the lee classic 4 turret. So im not sure how much that affects accuracy.
It does have free play, and it doesn't.

The bit of play allows it to rotate and also to self align. When the turret disk is pushed up, it locks up solid tight. I would put the Lee turret press up against any of its competitors for consistancy. if you use it with a 'dead length' seater die (which doesn't crimp), you'll get ammo that is at least as consistant as ammo made on a O-press- reason being as that the die/turret self align, and the die presses the turret disk to its lockup point.
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