Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?

[DT Guy]

I suspect that trying to place shots in specific areas of the upper chest while in danger of being killed/shot/stomped on is asking pretty much...OTOH, knifers know (and need to know) their anatomy very intimately to be effective.

Larry

[Danindetroit]

The people in detroit wearing body armor, are people who know corrupt individuals. A friend who I grew up with, help put numerous law enforcement officials in jail, Highland park police were walking individuals through customs, who had kilos of drugs on them. Mayor Young's favorite Niece Cathy Volson Curry, was married to the head of Young Boys Incorparated. If you looked at these people wrong, you were in a fight for your life. The vests, are the ones the cops are supposed to be getting, they are getting them for free, so they can sell them for $50 bucks, and make a profit.

From what I have heard is that they teach one way to shoot, and if that doesn't work, then you are out of luck. A lot of the people wearing vests, are robbing drug dealers, but they are on the streets of detroit. It really doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I bet nobody expected the North hollywood guys to have body armor.

Like I said I have a joint disease that effects, the SI joint, this is where the pelvis meets the sacrum, I know how painful this can be, I have had injections to this region, and it is not fun, I can imagine what a .380 would do. My question has been answered. Do not think out of the box, do not try anything new. Unless it has not been done for at least 50 years, it is not possible or viable. Just like what I was told after breaking my back.

[carebear]

dan,

You are out of line.

I in particular, and many others here in general, aren't saying not to be prepared for body armor, just that it is statistically unlikely to be encountered. For civilian, non-LEO self-defense purposes most engagements will be at close range against unarmored opponants. The statistically best chance to end that kind of attack is multiple shots to COM, BECAUSE OF the cluster of heart/lungs/major blood vessels and CNS. Miss low and there's a good shot at the liver, which tends to be an incapacitating wound. Plus, it is a BIG target, which in the real world allows for a bit of slop in shot placement. SWAT shoots there, Marine Force Recon shoot there, EVERYBODY shoots there first because it is the best target, proven time and time again in the real world.

Most trainers don't teach "anatomy" per se but do teach to shoot at the best anatomical areas. Most quality training also teaches failure drills. If the target doesn't go down from multiple COM hits, you transition to pelvis or head depending on what you can best hit and what you believe to be the more effective shot.

That isn't "in the box" thinking, that's the distillation of what works from the people who do it for real day in and day out.

Get off the high horse.

[LAK]

XavierBreath

Gunfighting ain't surgery. Targets move ....

And so does dangerous game.

A grizzly - or especially a leopard or lion - can (and they have) tear up several people in time meaured in fractions of a second in close encounters. This is the reason that shoooting dangerous game requires a knowledge of anatomy - and particular bullet placements for particular effects.

While there are a great many hunters who hunt or otherwise have encountered dangerous game, and been unable to do what others can, the principle of learning and practice of that which will stack the odds in favor of the hunter is not diminished.

Like dealing with dangerous animals, knowledge is the foundation on which to build action when dealing with human antagonists. What particular knowledge is applied in what circumstances by which particular person is going to vary of course - each according to his or her particular ability. But attempting to level the field is not the way forward for those who can move that direction.

[XavierBreath]

I would think that rather than study human anatomy, one should first study how to shoot accurately and quickly.

If one wants a diversion from that study and one is afraid that their opponent may be armored, then one should study body armor, the different types, and develop the ability to quickly recognize the different types. Finally, study exposed regions that will stop a threat. The #1 region is the head. You cannot armor your face effectively. I submit that you could as easily hit an eye as a sciatic nerve. However, if a person is being attacked, they are not going to draw on their knowlege of anatomy. They will fall back on their training. Rather than study how to shoot around body armor on a moving target, I think it would be better to devote your time to studying how to evade the threat.

It is my understanding that hunters study game anatomy so they do not have to track a downed animal very far, so that they have a higher probability of a clean kill. They take their shots from cover with a rifle on an unsuspecting target. They can choose to shoot or not. They can take their time at placing the first shot. Most hunters I know do not study anatomy for any purpose other than field dressing and taxidermy. Anatomy for a clean kill is secondary to that. They concentrate more on studying game habits and location. I do know one man who was attacked by a bear. He stated that he did not worry about anything but hitting the animal as many times as possible before he became lunch. He assured me that he did not leave his camp with the intent of killing a bear in this fashion.

FWIW, I believe that BGs may be starting to acquire body armor. At least the smart ones are. If I were a BG, I would. Most bad guys though, are BGs because they believe they will not be caught. They have a warped view of the world, and think they are bulletproof. As such, they do not see the need for armor. If they saw the need for armor, they would see the need for an education, the route to get it, and would change their lives.

Do you have any links to bad guys wearing body armor in Detroit?

[45R]

Stress under fire will drop anyones IQ. Center of mass K.I.S.S.

[Danindetroit]

It seems that people who are learning to shoot tactically, or just want to realise the full potential of their weapon, should learn human anatomy, so that they can effectively stop someone, without having to discharge a whole mag. Head shots, are nice on paper targets at 25 yards, and probably help, in accuracy for getting the feel of point and shoot, at 7 yards.

If this is covered, in classes, just say so or close the thread.

It may be for the same reason that sniper training was always shut down after wwI, WWII, and korea, the fact that hunting, or deliberatly trying to kill or serious incapacitate a person is not a pretty thing. It just seems that it needs to be brought out into the open, for people who have to deal with violent offenders.

Carebear your response was one that seemed to be one that I might take in a situation, take the shot that is given, and improvise, there were others, that I thought were interesting, and thought out. I even got a PM about it. Once again I have stated I do not carry, and have never advocated a particuliar method of shooting even to my wife, I just had a a theory. I think shooting through ribs, is a dicey proposition for handgun caliber. I know it can, and has been done. I appreciate the responses. I know an adrenaline dump, can do very strange things, and some are very different, I can get very calm, if I know what is coming, and it seems that I can assess a lot of info, I also, can get very shaky, and can't think. That is where realistic training pays off.

I tried to cover that I thought that this was a touchy subject. I did not want to get in a big argument about things. Just get a feel for what was being taught. I did do some searches on a person who was listed, but found nothing on this site, but that a Dr. did run a SD class.

No I don't have any articles, I just have LE people telling me they found a guy that had on body armor, a gun and was at a crack house. I figure it is like mice if you see one there are a bunch you didn't. These LE people also say, that they find people wearing armor, while making traffic stops. Read about chief Hart, and his staff, stealing money, that was earmarked for sting operations, I think the money was from confiscated goods, from drug busts, so it was easier to steal, and not on the books. It might have just went in, and right out the back door. He had $2 million cash in his house. It may be hard to find, it is old. I do know that smack has made a big comeback, and it is much more profitable, than crack. I am willing to bet that the more money the more corruption.

The city is trying to look good for the 2006 superbowl, I bet news stories will start to center around how great detroit is, it might have a facelift, but it is still rotten underneath, not all just some, but are you a corrupt cop, for looking the other way?. If somebody was offeneded by what I said, then I am sorry. It was 3 degrees out a couple days ago, now it is 40, and raining, I get in a bad mood, when my back hurts, and I mean like when a dentist hits a nerve in your tooth, and after the shooting pain your whole jaw aches, and it never goes away. If anybody has ever gotten a spinal tap, that is what it feels like everyday, and worse when the weather changes. It doesn't make it right, but that is what happens.

The chance of running into a person with body armor is probably remote, I worked with guys, who just got out of prison for burglary, they never robbed a house, because they feared getting shot by the occupants, they robbed businesses after hours, they were out maybe 4 months before they went back in. Criminals are thinking about protection from armed people. How they are going to respond is going to be learned in the following years.

I asked a question, some individuals answered. Detroit has been corrupt for a long time. Long before Mayor Young. It goes back to the 30's at least this city workers, and police. There was so much money and resources back then, skimming off the top wasn't noticed. Now with budgets tight since the 70's thru now, it is noticed. I appreciate everybody's input, I came up with, that most times, anatomy isn't taught, some people do teach it, others learn it on their own. I would think, that most people who carry a knife as back-up, know where they are going to plant it. I learned what I wanted to. Detroit is different than A lot of places, my friend who travel on business, say it, and I believe it.

I found out what I wanted to.

[LAK]

Knowledge of the anatomy in the context of dangerous game is an aid to knowing what is likley to bring the instant demise or physically incapacitate in particular ways.

Dangerous game, like all others, are sometimes wounded and must be tracked and finished. The difference is that a wounded (or even an unwounded) dangerous game animal will often make it it's business to turn on their antagonist and bring about their end. Likewise the chance encounter with a variety of what can be considered dangerous animals may mean a similar circumstance and call for the same knowledge and skills.

As far as the stress factor in a violent encounter, I can not think of many things more stressful as a sudden close encounter with a grizzly bear, a wounded leopard or lion. For that matter an encounter of moderate distance that rapidly changes to a closer one.

[carebear]

LAK,

Like you are saying. There's a distinct difference between hunting dangerous game and a defense situation against it. It is the same as the difference between sniping at a human target and defending against an attack by one.

If I am hunting/sniping, I have the initiative and time to pick my shot to incapacitate/kill. The target is probably not aware of me or has not yet reacted. In any event, it will be reacting to me.

In a defense situation against dangerous game animals or "The Most Dangerous Game," I am reacting to an attack. I do not have the initiative nor is reaction time on my side.

In either case, my defensive goal is the same. Get as many rounds into the most likely anatomical region to stop the attack. A brain shot to ragdoll or perhaps a hip/shoulder shot to stop the attack. With a human, that has a distance weapon option, mobility kills are not satisfactory, I need incapacitation. Thus I go COM and transition to head (if I can pull it off) if need be.

It's the difference between a passing shot at a lion at 15 yds. and a lion coming out of the brush at 15 feet.

[JohnKSa]

Getting a hit on a moving target that's shooting back at you is plenty hard enough. Taking a lower percentage shot because there MIGHT be body armor isn't a good idea IMO. If body armor is truly a concern then one should pick a round that can defeat common types of armor. 9x25 Dillon with FMJ might be a good choice. 7.62x25 seems to work well by all accounts.

And, hitting bone isn't so bad--it can actually be a good thing. The sternum isn't much of a barrier for a decent defense round, and bone splinters can do a lot of work. The .30 Mauser was noted for being a great stopper--but ONLY when ribs or sternum were hit, thus creating secondary projectiles.

BTW, the guy touting .45ACP as a great remedy for body armor doesn't read body armor specs. Even with FMJ, .45ACP isn't a great choice for use against body armor.

I'll be aiming COM, in spite of (or perhaps because of) my knowledge of anatomy.

The only reason I'd take a pelvic shot would be if I were faced with a person armed with a sword or large knife in very close quarters.

[Double Naught Spy]

JohnKSa is right about .45 acp and body armor. Level 1, fragmentation rated and not ballistic rated, still manages to stop .45 acp, at least in a couple of the unscientific testing I have seen. It is not a consistent stopper, hence why level 1 isn't rated for .45 acp, but I would guess that even if .45 acp penetrated the armor, the power might not be there to penetrate the person or certainly not to penetrate very far. The armor will remove a lot of the energy as the round fights through the fabric. If the round is a hollowpoint, the leading edles will collapse inward, not expand, and then the round fold and expand behind the collapsed point. Because they do expand without any sort of cutting action to speak of by the leading edges, they are more easily stopped than ball rounds.

Of all the calibers, .45 acp is really one of the easier ones to stop by vests because the round is big, slow, and with a large cross section. It simply is not a good round for trying to separate, spread, and the pass through the fibers, which is what penetrating ammo does do. It is no surprise that pointy rifle ammo penetrates most soft body armor. It has the speed, energy, and the point. Ballistic body armor is a poor armor against penetrating items like knives and ice picks. So a little .223 round pierces the soft armor much like an ice pick.

In the final analysis of teaching anatomy and handgun self defense, I don't think it is all that necessary that students try to aim for kill spots as they might do when hunting game such as deer. It is not so important that they know where all the organs are, but some basic knowledge is good. What is more important relative to handguns and anatomy for students is that they come to understand why it is that their handguns are less than terrific stoppers. Coinciding with such information is some basic ballistic information. With that knowledge, they should be aware before ever being in a self defense situation that if they use their handgun, lack of capabilities in creating the necessary damage and that fact that even when many key organs are damaged, their attackers may not be stopped. This should NOT come as a surprise and they should then have adequate training to know what to do when a stop isn't successful.

I find it amazing that many handgun folks are of the impression that once shot, a bad guy will tend to drop immediately. Much of this insight comes from watching TV actors getting shot. What is so amazing is that while they may think their handgun will or should produce the same results, they are very much aware of the fact that TV handguns that seem to show infinite mag capacity isn't a reasonable assumption about their own guns.

[carebear]

Just wanted to apologize to Dan for calling him "out of line."

When remarking on "high horses," I need to make sure I'm speaking from ground level.

Sorry Dan.

[Danindetroit]

That's cool, I am more out of line than in. I reply, when I should just turn off the computer, take a pill, and relax. Like I said I learned a lot. Lets just play taps, and let this one die, unless it interests someone else.

[seb5]

Just wanted to say it's nice to see an internet discussion board where 2 people disagree, get a little sideways and then correct the skid themselves without mod involvement.

[LAK]

Carebear,

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Stalking and picking a shot at a dangerous game animal is one thing - running into one at shorter distances unexpectedly, or closing with a wounded one is another matter altogether.

I would equate such an encounter very similar to - but far worse - than any human "3 percenter" currently discussed in another thread.

[carebear]

LAK,

Definitely. But better than the 3% if only because at least you typically know when you are in dangerous game territory and can plan and gun up accordingly.

That 3%-er might be in the grocery store with you. Which, personally, isn't on the list of places I regularly carry my 12 guage.

[Jeff Loveless]

Dan,
You've gotten all sorts of good answers and there is not much that I can add, but...

The training I've had didn't so much go into detail of organ location as much as remembering that the human body is not a flat sheet of cardboard and angles are terribly important. On a 3-D torso, COM may be the arm pit or right breast. If you're on your back shooting up your aim point might be the belly button - all to drive your bullet into that area behind the bullseye you typically think of on a 2-D target.

To quote one of my instructors, COM is where all the wires and hoses are - you want to sever wires and hoses to disable the human machine. Depending on the angle in a moving gun fight, the aim point could literally be any where.

[carebear]

Dan,

I keep mentioning Awerbuck. One of the neat things he does is staple the silhouettes so that they curve outward and then places the stands at angles to the shooter. That gives more of a "3D" feel and brings up the importance of moving and angling your fire so that rounds go as deeply into the target as possible, not just follow shallow peripheral paths.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks.

[Ninjato]

My personal opinion....

If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school?

Basic human anatomy is just plain common knowledge. I don't even see the need for such a wasteful class for myself. Of course if I teach a firearm self defense class, this would be the perfect "rip-off" scam to the general unknowing public. Offering basic anatomy would make me a lot of $$$ if I base the whole premise of how important it is to know anatomy to defend oneself properly.

[Danindetroit]

Please tell me where and what the dural mater is?

I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds.

I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.

[Shorts]

the layer that surrounds the CNS

[Danindetroit]

Which layer? I was hoping nj replied. Since it doesn't matter, and he was taught that in grade school, and the fact, that if it is not pierced you stand a chance of not contracting madcow disease. I have a reason for asking what I asked, it is personal, but if anyone has a problem with it, I will explain.

[444]

I have taken a few defensive firearms classes and they didn't get real in-depth with A&P. As was mentioned, you shoot for center mass. If that isn't effective you go to your failure drill: transition to the head. It doesn't matter why it was ineffective: body armor or something else, the fact is that you fired two shots COM and they did not stop the threat.
As has been mentioned, actually hitting someone at all in a gun fight seems to be an issue. So, you aim for the largest and most stable target that just happens to contain many of the organs essential to human life.
I don't have a lot of education in A&P, but I have worked as a paramedic in a busy EMS system for 20 years and I have seen a few gunshot wounds up close and personal: possibly over 100. Based on my own experience with this, I completely agree with what I was taught in these gun schools: If your life is on the line, you shoot for the center of mass of whatever is visible. If it is two inches of shoulder peeking around the corner, you shoot it COM. If it is a foot, you shoot it COM. If the whole body is visible, you shoot it, COM. You put lead into the target as fast and as often as you can.
This is a very important concept that I am pretty sure, a lot of people have never given a whole lot of consideration. Why ? Because we tend to shoot on one dimensional targets that are facing us in correct anatomical position. It has been my experience that when confronted with a three dimensional target that is not facing me directly, I revert to my practice and try to shoot for the same spots on the target as I would in practice. For example, I might mentally tell myself I am shooting the target's third shirt button. BUT, if the target is not facing me, this might result in a superficial hit;even if I hit the third button. You need to shoot COM of whatever is visible to you. Another example with head shots: depending on what direction the person if facing, his right eye might be COM, or his ear might be COM: we tend to think in terms of forehead right between the eyes because this is what we see in training; normally.
This whole argument about COM vs. Center of Chest reflects the idea that we are thinking in a single dimension: that we are shooting at a target that is facing us and we can see the whole target. In reality, there is no error with the term COM: you shoot for the COM: if this happens to be a person facing you face to face and you can see their whole body, you shoot center of mass. Note we said, center of mass, not "take their height and divide by two". Mass means the big part: this is the trunk of the body. The trunk of the body has appendages, which are not part of the "mass". But we are now dealing with semantics: you shoot for the middle of whatever you can see and repeat as nessessary.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks for the help, I need to get some videoes, I understand, but I need to actually see it, Bill Jordan sounds interesting, and Louis Awerbuck. There is no way I can attend a class, but at least a vide will help me. Thanks for the help.