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November 19, 2008, 05:36 PM | #51 |
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DO NOT get bean bags or other garbage for your shotty. ANYTHING fired out of a gun is considered deadly force. Using that bean bag will buy you the same amount of trouble as birdshot. In addition just the use of the weapon to make a threat is threatening deadly force without justification if you do not believe using deadly force is justified.
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November 20, 2008, 01:12 AM | #52 | |
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It is THE standard answer. Every newbie that steps in and asks is given the same advice. Use buckshot or slugs, then it's on to which one(?) and can I use rifled slugs in my smoothbore(?) Yada, yada, yada. The song remains the same.
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L'Chayim! Last edited by Mike U.; November 20, 2008 at 01:24 AM. Reason: removing an ass chewing...didn't wanna go there... |
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November 20, 2008, 03:21 AM | #53 |
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For the umpteenth time-
Buckshot is great for confrontations of uncertain distance-like encountered in law enforcement. Targets may even be 40 yards away. In your home, heavy birshot will suffice. You are choosing the distance-it's in your house. I personally know of an instance of #8 shot blowing a hole almost through a man's chest. I also know of a suicide, where buckshot did NOT exit the head. All the "expert's" recommendation of buckshot is geared toward law enforcement-not home defense. If you fear overpenetration, heavy birdshot is fine. |
November 20, 2008, 03:49 AM | #54 | |
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I thought I would post this since I'm not sure how many of you would actually take the time to look here when you give someone advice to defend their lives with bird shot.
It is from the Box O' Truth web sight that people talk about. Quote:
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November 20, 2008, 04:52 AM | #55 | |||
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First three inches of permanent wound cavity were completely destroyed. Little to no temporary stretch cavity effects were observed. Small sized birdshot such as this #8 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures. Range: 3 yards Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum Round: 12 gauge 2 3/4 Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #8 Birdshot Gelatin: 9'x9'x19' 10% ordinance gelatin block Measured Average Permanent Cavity Penetration: 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) Temporary Stretch Cavity: 1.0 to 3 inches (2.5 to 7.6 cm) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If someone is going to claim the earth is flat or the sun is the center of the universe(which given the empirical evidence is akin to what the bird vs buck shot debate has become) then to be taken seriously they need to provide some proof. Autopsy reports, ballistic testing or at least the writings of a noted expert something to bolster their claim. Until the time that evidence is produced, I'm going to continue to be convinced that buck shot #1 or larger and slugs are the prudent choice for defense applications, whether they be home or police/tactical in nature.
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November 20, 2008, 06:43 AM | #56 |
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We can debate all year about the best 'man stopper'. Here's the truth, any gun held by someone with the mindset to use it will repell 95%+ of said bad guys. Yes that other 5% is out there. If what I have at the moment is an H&R single shot 20ga, that's what I'll use.
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November 20, 2008, 07:13 AM | #57 |
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i have seen the box o' truth shotgun tests. and like before when i first saw it. i would like to see the testing done on something other than bare gelatin. like maybe bare gelatin with a winter coat or leather jacket,jeans,heavy trousers. maybe do a gelatin test with it poured into a torso shaped mold and dressed to simulate an intruder wearing heaving or light clothing to see what kind of penetration there is. if its the same depth, shallower,deeper. if there is any deflection of pellets,even if its buckshot. yes if they are wearing body armor that may stop it. but i recall a NJ cop (Zimmerman) that was hit in the face through a door with a shotgun blast. he did die. and i bet he was wearing a vest.
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November 20, 2008, 09:38 AM | #58 | |||||
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November 20, 2008, 09:57 AM | #59 |
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Personally I have very little to nothing staked on this discussion but I am very curious as to how a 3" magnum heavy waterfowl load or even a 3.5" magnum heavy waterfowl load of steel size T shot would fare.
As an unbiased spectator I promote nothing, only knowledge...and perhaps as a natural **** disturber...I do feel the need to point out that most of this testing with bird shot I have have just looked at was done with what seem like pretty light loads to me. Where do you even get 1oz loads of 7.5 ??? The minimum I fire at partridge is 1 1/8 oz but there is plenty of 1 1/2, 1 5/8, or even 1 3/4oz loads that you could have tried those tests with instead.....Would the results have been much different, probably not a whole lot, but if you want to put more effort into your arguements against birdshot at least fire the heaviest damn loads out there and see. Again, not promoting anything, just pointing stuff out.....and hoping I might egg someone on into testing a load of 3.5" steel T Just for the heck of it. |
November 20, 2008, 10:41 AM | #60 | ||
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The ONLY universal in the USA is a reasonable fear for life. Some jurisdictions consider the presence of an intruder as enough to establish that and others do not. I prefer to craft my argument to cover everyone in the USA, even in the most liberal areas. I do know one class of intruder I would suggest using bird shot against. Now for Less Than Lethal: I base my statements on what I have read from qualified experts such as Ayoob. The guy has been there to testify enough that I accept his statements on the issue. In addition here is a little tidbit: http://www.aele.org/critical-01.html Quote:
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November 20, 2008, 11:13 AM | #61 | |||||
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the defense rests Quote:
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good luck
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November 20, 2008, 11:30 AM | #62 | |
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LEOs are trained in the proper use of such devices, civilians generally are not. An LEO using a riot baton on a person is not deadly force while Joe Sixpack using a baseball bat is... Precedent is only applicable should all the contributing factors support it. The only precedent here is that the Bean Bag was non-lethal for the LEO to use while at the same time capable of significant harm. I have found another case online where a mentally deranged suspect did eventually die from bean bag rounds used by the police. Arguing that such force used by an untrained individual is not lethal will be an uphill struggle, especially given the owners manual for the shotgun clearly indicates it is a deadly weapon and I would wager the packaging for the bean bag rounds also states its potential to kill if not used properly.
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November 20, 2008, 11:56 AM | #63 | ||
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November 20, 2008, 12:33 PM | #64 |
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The case was concerning an LEO and the decision was therefore in reference to one.
Trying to tie that decision relating to an LEO trained in the use of such a device to a justification for a civilian with no such training is a risky proposition. If you doubt me ask a lawyer.
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November 20, 2008, 12:44 PM | #65 | ||
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Hey you don't want to use them fine. Hope the DA doesn't see your posts here because "you just wanted to kill him".
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November 20, 2008, 12:52 PM | #66 | |
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I, however, now live in FL, where the Castle Doctrine says otherwise |
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November 20, 2008, 01:07 PM | #67 | ||
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For a DA to argue a LEO has rights with regards to the use of force, lethal and non-lethal, beyond that of a non-LEO is easy and already established. In almost all jurisdictions LEOs have the right to use a variety of levels of force to resolve situations that the normal citizen does not. To say an LEO has a right to use a bean bag where you do not is easy given they already have a right to use a bullet, taser, baton and other tools in situations where you do not.
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November 20, 2008, 01:38 PM | #68 | |
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so you are still contending that I've got 8 rounds of buckshot in my gun and one LTL shell you as a DA are gonna prove I intended to kill him with the first shot (the LTL round).
the president has been set they're less than lethal.says so on the box and they confirmed it in a court of law. yes the LEO may deploy different levels of force than I can.many places you can't persue a criminal. but the defined levels of force are the same. If a LEO shoots a live round at you it's deadly force if you shoot one back it's deadly force. if deadly force is not warrented it is illegal. LTL shells are not deadly force.
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November 20, 2008, 02:19 PM | #69 | |
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I agree. I'm running low recoil 00 buck* as of this writing. However, recently I've been kicking around the idea of using #2 or #3 buck. More pellets, .25 and .27 caliber respectively, still sized large enough to produce a favorable conflict resolution for the intended victim/homeowner. This kind of goes against my grain as I normally feel .30 caliber projectiles are a good starting point for serious social conflict resolution. My thinking here is more is better. *I'm still recovering from open heart surgery so I can't use anything with more power(read: kick).
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November 20, 2008, 02:28 PM | #70 |
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There is a PRECEDENT that we have the most liberal PRESIDENT in history.
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November 20, 2008, 02:33 PM | #71 | |
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Believe what you want. If you fire a gun at someone it will be construed as lethal force no matter what comes flying out of it.
Lethal force is related to training as well as the device itself. If I beat you with a police baton there is every chance I will be guilty of using lethal force. If an LEO does so they are most likely not going to be considered using lethal force because they are documented as having been given specific training in the use of the device in a non-lethal manner. If you do not believe me that these things can kill when used by the untrained and unqualified look at the company that makes them http://www.alstechnologies.com/ and read this concerning training in their use: http://static.alstechnologies.com/ar...e-dec-2007.pdf Quote:
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November 20, 2008, 03:33 PM | #72 | ||||
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I understand you stated your opinion and tried to make it seam fact but the very court case you brought up refutes your own statement. non lethal= no deadly force. Quote:
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November 20, 2008, 04:30 PM | #73 |
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My preference is #4`s to slugs. Stay away from the 'dragon`s breath' and 'bolo' round.
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November 20, 2008, 04:37 PM | #74 | |
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The bottom line is the owners manual on the weapon says it can be lethal. The product in question says it can be lethal. There is every reason to expect when used by the untrained that LESS LETHAL (the term used on the manufacturer's website) item will is lethal. Use a gun as a civilian with anything and it is lethal force in the eyes of the law. Use a certified less lethal device in a firearm as an LEO with training in the use of such devices and it is considered Non-Lethal. It is the training and certification which makes the difference and which you seem to not understand. If you take a scalpel to a persons chest cavity and a surgeon does the same the court views both acts differently even if you both have the same intention. YOU are not properly trained or certified to cut up a thorax, the doctor is. Likewise you are not properly trained or certified to use a bean bag round, the LEO who does is. The court may have found his use in this case as non-lethal but it clearly recognizes the significant risk the device posed. The officer has department training and protocol to fall back on to justify his application of the device at that time. You do not. The standards you are held to and the effect of the device in both your hands is completely different. I see no point arguing with you further. You fail to accept that decisions do not happen in a vacuum irrespective of contributing factors and precedent cannot be simply plucked from one decision and applied to another independent of those factors. You also seem to think your rights to use force are the same as that of an LEO. I have made my case and simply hope any people looking for guidance can understand that logic. If they question it ask an expert in the field or lawyer. Every weapon's manual says it is a deadly weapon. Anything you fire out of that weapon will come from a box with a warning saying it can be lethal. If you as a citizen fire anything from a gun at a person it is lethal force. PERIOD. If you state you used something less because you felt lethal force was not warranted then you are guilty of using said force without justification. If you loaded a bean bag or bird shot or rock salt or anything else you care to stick down your boom stick, are known to have loaded that stuff to avoid inflicting a lethal wound and use it you may be facing a world of legal hurt. Decide for yourself.
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November 20, 2008, 05:37 PM | #75 | |||||
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