What do I really have? German Mauser

darwins · January 22, 2011, 08:57 PM

I posted about this rifle recently in the Smithy forum. Somebody suggested this rifle may be a correct conversion from a Gew98 to a Kar98k rifle, something the Germans were doing just as they were ramping up their military in the '30s. While this rifle exhibits features of such, the stock has been refinished, or completely replaced and the metal may have been refinished as well. It may have excessive headspace. So what do you guys think of this rifle?
Danzig 1916 (Note: In the picture of two rifles, the one we are discussing is the bottom one. The top one is a FN Mauser made for Israel and is there for length comparison purposes.)

Scorch · January 22, 2011, 09:10 PM

That is a Gewehr 98 (German for Rifle, Model of 1898), standard issue for German troops in WW1. Danzig means the Imperial armory at Danzig (known today as Gdansk in Poland). Note that it is longer than the FN M98 short carbine (K98k was the German designation for the short carbine, and means Carbine, model 98, short). Chambering should be 8X57mm, aka 8mm Mauser. Headspace? Fire it, if it splits cases you can worry about it, otherwise just enjoy it.

darwins · January 23, 2011, 12:42 AM

Thanks Scorch. I guess what I'd really like to know is whether it is a correct configuration. This much I know. The S42/K indicates the rifle was reworked to a different configuration - at the very least the rear sight was changed. The bolt does not match the receiver but is correct, per se, although I just realized I didn't check to see if there were any Imperial markings under the bolt-handle root. The bolt body, shroud, cocking piece and extractor all match each other. The clip that attaches the extractor to the bolt body, and the firing pin have different numbers. This also raises a small red flag for me although it is not surprising that the bolt does not match the receiver and barrel. The metal parts on the stock and the mag well cover are not numbered, which also raises a red flag for me. So, I should have asked my question a bit more specifically. I know what to look for in a K98 but I'm not nearly as familiar with this Gew98s that were reworked. So, my question is, are these legitimate red flags? Is this correct configuration to make it a legitimate WW2 rifle or are only the barrel and receiver the only parts remaining from the reworked rifle? Is the stock correct without a take down washer in the butt? That is what nags at me the most. Any markings on the stock, if there were any, were removed when the stock was refinished by a previous owner.

I'd like to establish some kind of value if I can.

Thanks all.

JT-AR-MG42 · January 23, 2011, 12:44 AM

Darwins,

Photos look like a nice rifle. Looks like Mauser in Oberndorf did the sight swap. I guess the number on the stock toe has been sanded off? How about in the barrel channel and under the handguard?

The GEW's (Scorch is correct, your GEW 98 has not been 'K'ed) were refitted with the new sight for the 100,000 man Reichwehr army per the agreement with the Allies following WW1.

I added photos of my 1907 DWM that was converted to 98k -all matching with a turned down bolt,milled off parade hook and a new barrel - at the Danzig Arsenal. I bought it at a good price, the seller was convinced the two XX's in front of the serial number meant it was a RC.

I figure you are concerned about the headspace because of a mis-matched bolt? I again go with Scorch on this one. IF the bolt is a German GEW, I would not have qualms about shooting it.

FWIW, I once deliberately mis-matched the bolts on a pile of matching 98k's in an attempt to find a combo that would indicate excessive headspace. All of the rifles I tried accepted the cases from the others with no problem closing the bolt at all.

Enjoy the quality, JT

darwins · January 23, 2011, 01:01 AM

JT,

Thanks for the pics. Very nice rifle. You'll notice mine does not have any XX stamped in the receiver. The stacking hook is still intact. I just pulled the gun out of the safe and looked under the bolt-handle root and it has Imperial inspection marks. The bolt does not match the rifle. The bolt body, shroud, cocking piece and extractor all match each other. The firing pin and the clip that attaches the extractor to the bolt body do not match any other parts. I don't believe any other metal on the stock or trigger housing have any numbers. Also, notice the lack of bolt take-down washer in the butt of the stock. This is where my suspicions come into play. It has been long enough since I have had the metal out of the stock that I don't remember if there are numbers in the barrel channel but I think would remember if there had been numbers, especially if they matched the receiver. Sadly, a previous owner sanded the stock smooth and refinished it. It is an attractive stock though.

The reason I suspect excessive headspace is because I have measured it with a no-go gauge. However, in the smithy section I am receiving advice to check it with a field gauge. Wish I had one.

I'm trying to figure out what I have so I can determine whether I want to sell it (and whether it is safe to sell it.) If the stock and unnumbered parts are correct for a rework for the Weimar army then I may want to keep it.

Thanks.

Scorch · January 23, 2011, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Is this correct configuration to make it a legitimate WW2 rifle

darwins-
It is a WW1 rifle, not a WW2 rifle. It is in original configuration as a WW1 rifle. The parts you are mentioning are common exchange parts, spare parts, etc, and do not reduce its originality. Enjoy it.

gyvel · January 23, 2011, 03:12 AM

I believe you have what is known among collectors as a "1935 rework."

These were rifles reworked by Mauser in ca. 1935 to rearm the growing Wehrmacht. You will notice the original WW I "roller coaster" rear sight has been replaced with the much later flat leaf tangent type. While not quite in the "rare" category (i.e. you're not going to retire from it), it falls in the "somewhat scarce" category as they were made more or less as a stopgap arm until the shorter standard 98k rifles could be produced and issued en masse.

It's definitely collectible.

darwins · January 23, 2011, 12:47 PM

So a stock sans take-down washer is correct for the period? With that in mind, I had to go look for pics on the internet because that thought was so surprising to me. I found this pic which was taken in 1915.
1915 German infantryman

I hadn't given enough respect to this rifle which is why I was lacking some details earlier. I am gaining a new-found respect for this rifle. I took it out of the stock and took pictures of the penciled markings in the barrel channels of both pieces of wood. The markings match and are in definite German style handwriting. I also took a picture of the mark on the cross-bolt. And there are numbers on all the other metal parts although none are matching. I am much more impressed with what I have now. I'm going to have to find a field gauge for it.

BTW, I bought this rifle from Cabela's about 4 years ago for $195. I figured at the time it would at least make a good shooter for the money but I kind of hoped it may be a rifle from the period we have been discussing. Then when the bolt failed the no-go gauge I became dis-enamored with it. I'm much more pleased with it now, and even more so if it can pass a field gauge test.

darwins · January 24, 2011, 11:13 PM

I asked about this rifle on a forum dedicated to Mausers and was told the reason for the stock and mismatched metal parts is likely because this rifle was sent to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Spain reworked the rifles and exported them to the US in the '60s or so.

gew98 · January 25, 2011, 12:07 AM

{{I added photos of my 1907 DWM that was converted to 98k -all matching with a turned down bolt,milled off parade hook and a new barrel - at the Danzig Arsenal. I bought it at a good price, the seller was convinced the two XX's in front of the serial number meant it was a RC.}}

JT ; Your 98k was a depot salvage utilizing a gew98 receiver. The double X is actually the Roman numeral 20 which indicates salvage/repair/assy at the 20th Wehrkries ( military district ) depot. Not rare but neither terribly common either. I had a completely matched CG Haenel 1918 gew98 that was built as a 98k. In 1941 the crunch for rifles in the wehrmacht was acute as germany was not mobilised yet for "total war economically". Every example of a gew98 rebuilt from salvaged or new old stock gew98 receivers has been of approximately 1941 and very early 1942 vintage. All that I have handled had 1941 dated barrels with one exception as one had a 1940 dated barrel. Some reused refinished gew98 small parts but most utilized new armorer replacement parts of varied maker s and numbered to match when assembled. As well in this 1941 window a large amount of 98k undated receivers w/no maker marks other than a few WaA proofs ( referred to as blank receivers ) that were in the HzA depot system for repair purposes where assembled into rifles and shipped out. These are more common than gew98 salvage jobs to 98k configuration an usually the only marking on the receiver is the new serial with the wehrkries number - whcih will also be on the barrel too.
The S/42 marking on the rear sight base and any other so part marked S/42 on such a rifle simply indicate one thing.... A Mauser Oberndorf produced SPARE PART. Mauser early on was contracted to produce oodles of sights, bolts , bolt parts etc etc for hitlers armament program to update gew98's on hand with the tangent sights for all the gew98's that still had the S patrone LV rear sights. Nauser did not do any of the installation of these spare parts and did not otherwise take part in the gew98 upgrade program.

gew98 · January 25, 2011, 12:11 AM

{{I asked about this rifle on a forum dedicated to Mausers and was told the reason for the stock and mismatched metal parts is likely because this rifle was sent to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Spain reworked the rifles and exported them to the US in the '60s or so. }}

Darwin ; I don't recall your rifle totally , but if memory serves me right it was a hodgpodge of bits with glaring indicators it was a 60's era import from spanish surplus sales then.

PS ; The spanish restocked many gew98's on hand after their civil war and did not put takedown discs in the stock nor even WW1 era unit discs. When the gew98's were updated and refurbished the stocks already either had the takedown disc or a unit disc which was then replaced with a takedown disc.
The takedown disc emerged in mid 1916 and was required to be implemented on all gew98 and kar98a production by all manufacturers as quickly and economically as situations allowed. All post WW1 karab b production and reworking of gew98 and kar98a's got takedown discs instaleld if they were the earlier unit disc pattern or plain butt ain the case of kar98a's.

James K · January 25, 2011, 11:23 PM

Good info, Gew98, but a small nitpick. It is Wehrkreis (defense district) pronounced to rhyme with "price", not Wehrkries (which would rhyme with "crease").

Jim

gew98 · January 26, 2011, 12:07 AM

Jim ; German is not a language I'm on familiar terms with so my spelling of german is every bit as weak. The translation is accepted as "military district" probably out of error , but that's what I've known it as for 25 + years.

AlaskaMike · February 2, 2011, 02:04 PM

Which versions of the Mauser 98 had smaller bores? I thought I read something about early ones having something like .318" bores vs. .323" of later rifles.

gew98 · February 2, 2011, 09:13 PM

The german military mauser 98 never had a .318 bore. The first couple years of the ge88 had the .318 bores but they learned real quick that bullet jacket fouling and bore wear necessitated an increase in depth to .321. The first couple years of gew98 production until 1903 had nominal .321 bores as they still used the patrone 88. When the S patrone was adopted in 1903 the bore was increased to nominally .323 on further gew98 production.
The only .318 bores out there in 7.92x57 chambering were some german made sporting arms and the post WW1 Czech rebuilds of gew88's they sold to equador.

January 22, 2011, 08:57 PM	#1
darwins Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 100	What do I really have? German Mauser I posted about this rifle recently in the Smithy forum. Somebody suggested this rifle may be a correct conversion from a Gew98 to a Kar98k rifle, something the Germans were doing just as they were ramping up their military in the '30s. While this rifle exhibits features of such, the stock has been refinished, or completely replaced and the metal may have been refinished as well. It may have excessive headspace. So what do you guys think of this rifle? Danzig 1916 (Note: In the picture of two rifles, the one we are discussing is the bottom one. The top one is a FN Mauser made for Israel and is there for length comparison purposes.)

January 22, 2011, 09:10 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	That is a Gewehr 98 (German for Rifle, Model of 1898), standard issue for German troops in WW1. Danzig means the Imperial armory at Danzig (known today as Gdansk in Poland). Note that it is longer than the FN M98 short carbine (K98k was the German designation for the short carbine, and means Carbine, model 98, short). Chambering should be 8X57mm, aka 8mm Mauser. Headspace? Fire it, if it splits cases you can worry about it, otherwise just enjoy it. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 23, 2011, 03:12 AM	#7
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I believe you have what is known among collectors as a "1935 rework." These were rifles reworked by Mauser in ca. 1935 to rearm the growing Wehrmacht. You will notice the original WW I "roller coaster" rear sight has been replaced with the much later flat leaf tangent type. While not quite in the "rare" category (i.e. you're not going to retire from it), it falls in the "somewhat scarce" category as they were made more or less as a stopgap arm until the shorter standard 98k rifles could be produced and issued en masse. It's definitely collectible. Last edited by gyvel; January 23, 2011 at 03:18 AM.

January 25, 2011, 12:11 AM	#11
gew98 Member Join Date: December 9, 2010 Location: Rural bluegrass abode Posts: 70	{{I asked about this rifle on a forum dedicated to Mausers and was told the reason for the stock and mismatched metal parts is likely because this rifle was sent to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Spain reworked the rifles and exported them to the US in the '60s or so. }} Darwin ; I don't recall your rifle totally , but if memory serves me right it was a hodgpodge of bits with glaring indicators it was a 60's era import from spanish surplus sales then. PS ; The spanish restocked many gew98's on hand after their civil war and did not put takedown discs in the stock nor even WW1 era unit discs. When the gew98's were updated and refurbished the stocks already either had the takedown disc or a unit disc which was then replaced with a takedown disc. The takedown disc emerged in mid 1916 and was required to be implemented on all gew98 and kar98a production by all manufacturers as quickly and economically as situations allowed. All post WW1 karab b production and reworking of gew98 and kar98a's got takedown discs instaleld if they were the earlier unit disc pattern or plain butt ain the case of kar98a's. Last edited by gew98; January 25, 2011 at 12:17 AM.

February 2, 2011, 09:13 PM	#15
gew98 Member Join Date: December 9, 2010 Location: Rural bluegrass abode Posts: 70	.318 vs the truth The german military mauser 98 never had a .318 bore. The first couple years of the ge88 had the .318 bores but they learned real quick that bullet jacket fouling and bore wear necessitated an increase in depth to .321. The first couple years of gew98 production until 1903 had nominal .321 bores as they still used the patrone 88. When the S patrone was adopted in 1903 the bore was increased to nominally .323 on further gew98 production. The only .318 bores out there in 7.92x57 chambering were some german made sporting arms and the post WW1 Czech rebuilds of gew88's they sold to equador. __________________ 1) Culture Builds upon the past. 2) The Past always tries to control the future. 3) Our future is becoming less free. 4) To build free societies you must limit control of the past.

January 23, 2011, 12:42 AM	#3
darwins Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 100	Thanks Scorch. I guess what I'd really like to know is whether it is a correct configuration. This much I know. The S42/K indicates the rifle was reworked to a different configuration - at the very least the rear sight was changed. The bolt does not match the receiver but is correct, per se, although I just realized I didn't check to see if there were any Imperial markings under the bolt-handle root. The bolt body, shroud, cocking piece and extractor all match each other. The clip that attaches the extractor to the bolt body, and the firing pin have different numbers. This also raises a small red flag for me although it is not surprising that the bolt does not match the receiver and barrel. The metal parts on the stock and the mag well cover are not numbered, which also raises a red flag for me. So, I should have asked my question a bit more specifically. I know what to look for in a K98 but I'm not nearly as familiar with this Gew98s that were reworked. So, my question is, are these legitimate red flags? Is this correct configuration to make it a legitimate WW2 rifle or are only the barrel and receiver the only parts remaining from the reworked rifle? Is the stock correct without a take down washer in the butt? That is what nags at me the most. Any markings on the stock, if there were any, were removed when the stock was refinished by a previous owner. I'd like to establish some kind of value if I can. Thanks all.

January 23, 2011, 01:01 AM	#5
darwins Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 100	JT, Thanks for the pics. Very nice rifle. You'll notice mine does not have any XX stamped in the receiver. The stacking hook is still intact. I just pulled the gun out of the safe and looked under the bolt-handle root and it has Imperial inspection marks. The bolt does not match the rifle. The bolt body, shroud, cocking piece and extractor all match each other. The firing pin and the clip that attaches the extractor to the bolt body do not match any other parts. I don't believe any other metal on the stock or trigger housing have any numbers. Also, notice the lack of bolt take-down washer in the butt of the stock. This is where my suspicions come into play. It has been long enough since I have had the metal out of the stock that I don't remember if there are numbers in the barrel channel but I think would remember if there had been numbers, especially if they matched the receiver. Sadly, a previous owner sanded the stock smooth and refinished it. It is an attractive stock though. The reason I suspect excessive headspace is because I have measured it with a no-go gauge. However, in the smithy section I am receiving advice to check it with a field gauge. Wish I had one. I'm trying to figure out what I have so I can determine whether I want to sell it (and whether it is safe to sell it.) If the stock and unnumbered parts are correct for a rework for the Weimar army then I may want to keep it. Thanks.

January 23, 2011, 12:47 PM	#8
darwins Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 100	So a stock sans take-down washer is correct for the period? With that in mind, I had to go look for pics on the internet because that thought was so surprising to me. I found this pic which was taken in 1915. 1915 German infantryman I hadn't given enough respect to this rifle which is why I was lacking some details earlier. I am gaining a new-found respect for this rifle. I took it out of the stock and took pictures of the penciled markings in the barrel channels of both pieces of wood. The markings match and are in definite German style handwriting. I also took a picture of the mark on the cross-bolt. And there are numbers on all the other metal parts although none are matching. I am much more impressed with what I have now. I'm going to have to find a field gauge for it. BTW, I bought this rifle from Cabela's about 4 years ago for $195. I figured at the time it would at least make a good shooter for the money but I kind of hoped it may be a rifle from the period we have been discussing. Then when the bolt failed the no-go gauge I became dis-enamored with it. I'm much more pleased with it now, and even more so if it can pass a field gauge test.

January 24, 2011, 11:13 PM	#9
darwins Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 100	I asked about this rifle on a forum dedicated to Mausers and was told the reason for the stock and mismatched metal parts is likely because this rifle was sent to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. Spain reworked the rifles and exported them to the US in the '60s or so.

January 25, 2011, 12:07 AM	#10
gew98 Member Join Date: December 9, 2010 Location: Rural bluegrass abode Posts: 70	{{I added photos of my 1907 DWM that was converted to 98k -all matching with a turned down bolt,milled off parade hook and a new barrel - at the Danzig Arsenal. I bought it at a good price, the seller was convinced the two XX's in front of the serial number meant it was a RC.}} JT ; Your 98k was a depot salvage utilizing a gew98 receiver. The double X is actually the Roman numeral 20 which indicates salvage/repair/assy at the 20th Wehrkries ( military district ) depot. Not rare but neither terribly common either. I had a completely matched CG Haenel 1918 gew98 that was built as a 98k. In 1941 the crunch for rifles in the wehrmacht was acute as germany was not mobilised yet for "total war economically". Every example of a gew98 rebuilt from salvaged or new old stock gew98 receivers has been of approximately 1941 and very early 1942 vintage. All that I have handled had 1941 dated barrels with one exception as one had a 1940 dated barrel. Some reused refinished gew98 small parts but most utilized new armorer replacement parts of varied maker s and numbered to match when assembled. As well in this 1941 window a large amount of 98k undated receivers w/no maker marks other than a few WaA proofs ( referred to as blank receivers ) that were in the HzA depot system for repair purposes where assembled into rifles and shipped out. These are more common than gew98 salvage jobs to 98k configuration an usually the only marking on the receiver is the new serial with the wehrkries number - whcih will also be on the barrel too. The S/42 marking on the rear sight base and any other so part marked S/42 on such a rifle simply indicate one thing.... A Mauser Oberndorf produced SPARE PART. Mauser early on was contracted to produce oodles of sights, bolts , bolt parts etc etc for hitlers armament program to update gew98's on hand with the tangent sights for all the gew98's that still had the S patrone LV rear sights. Nauser did not do any of the installation of these spare parts and did not otherwise take part in the gew98 upgrade program.

January 25, 2011, 11:23 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Good info, Gew98, but a small nitpick. It is Wehrkreis (defense district) pronounced to rhyme with "price", not Wehrkries (which would rhyme with "crease"). Jim

January 26, 2011, 12:07 AM	#13
gew98 Member Join Date: December 9, 2010 Location: Rural bluegrass abode Posts: 70	Jim ; German is not a language I'm on familiar terms with so my spelling of german is every bit as weak. The translation is accepted as "military district" probably out of error , but that's what I've known it as for 25 + years.

February 2, 2011, 02:04 PM	#14
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	Which versions of the Mauser 98 had smaller bores? I thought I read something about early ones having something like .318" bores vs. .323" of later rifles.