Careful what you use to clean your bore

[Txhillbilly]

Barrels are consumable items, either set it back or just install another barrel.

There's no sense in over thinking the problem, just replace it.

[Jim Watson]

The craziest witches' brew I have used was Kroil + Shooter's Choice = "benchrest blend." It is pretty mild.

Type 416 SS is a fairly mild grade of stainless, chosen for easy machining, not extreme corrosion resistance. Type 416R is better but not as free machining. I think there used to be some 410 barrels and I have a pistol barrel made out of 17-4 PH which is tough stuff. So tough that the maker has gone over to 416.

[HiBC]

BBarn,I agree with your post.

On the cleaning recommendation at Scheumann,remember he makes pistol barrels,not rifle barrels.

A 9 mm race gun bore may have different cleaning requirements than a rifle.
You have brass rod access to carbon deposits.
Whether I agree with the cleaning/not cleaning advice is irrelevant.

IMO,a good,clean straight one piece cleaning rod,a bore guide,a Montana nylon brush,and pick ONE of you favorite cleaning formula. I've been known to use Bore tech eliminator,or Patch out,and of course,Hoppes.

Hoppes Benchrest has a little ammonia in it. IMO,not a big deal.Its mild.

But I don't shoot carb cleaner in it.

FWIW,if I want to spay degrease gun parts,I have a little Binks type touch up spray gun and a can of lacquer thinner.

[HiBC]

Jim,I have machined a LOT of 17-4.Mostly lathe. Crank up some speed (in the chart range) and with the tools I was using,about a .010 to .012 chip. Turns blue and comes off in little curls like popcorn.

I like the stuff. Its easy to get a clean,sharp looking part.I also really like that a couple hours at 900 deg f will get you over Rockwell 40 C.

Per the article on "Steels" 416 R ,the "R" is Rifle.And,per the article,sulphur is among the free machining additives.

Scheuman does agree,its NOT a particularly great steel. It is a steel you can get a very good tool finish in.

I buy Kart carbon steel 1911 barrels

[davidsog]

IIRC, In SOTIC we used Shooters Choice bore solvent and Sweets copper solvent. Some wet patches with Shooter Choice, followed by Sweets as Directed, then wet patches of Shooters Choice again.

It is very important that you follow the directions on any copper solvent and it will work fine. The issue comes when people do not follow instructions or use some homegrown wisdom that is plain wrong. At the end of the allotted time to allow the copper solvent to work, a second run of shooters choice was used to neutralized the copper solvent.

It was only on the M24 SWS and they did not have SS barrels.

[mete]

The way I had understood it --standard 416 has no upper limits to sulfur [???]
High sulfur will be rather brittle for firearms ! So Crucible put a limit making it safer though lower machinability.
There was a European rifle maker that had serious accidents but I never heard the reason though I thought it a sulfur problem !

[reynolds357]

I rarely ever take the copper out of my hunting rifles. I get the powder, and given a little bit of CU, out with Rem clean. Then a few patches of Kroil. A dry patch if going to shoot soon. A patch of Mobil1 0W-20 if long term storage.

[HiBC]

Mete: Once again,the Scheumann article on barrel steel addresses this.

At least the 416 R he uses has an upper limit on sulphur.He acknowledges the sulphur stringers are oriented longitudally in a 416 R barrel. He says the steel is not all that strong .Its less strong in extreme cold.

He mentioned on 1911 barrels,it tends to shear off locking lugs and the underlug.

He said that's why when a 416 rifle barrel fails,it opens up like a flower instead of fragging like a grenade.

You may notice some barrel makers do not offer 416 R barrels in the lightest contours /larger bores,when they do offer carbon steel.

Barrel steel,fromObermeyer's web page

http://www.obermeyerbarrels.com/steel.html

[mete]

Being " out of the loop " is a frustrating situation for a metallurgist !
The links don't mention effects of Calcium on sulfur inclusion shapes unless I missed it. Ca would lower the brittle effect of typical stringers by making them more spherical .Has that been mentoned ?

[HiBC]

I was a machinist,not a metallurgist or a chemist.
On the subject of barrels and barrel steels,I'd give credibility to a metallurgist.If you say Calcium might be the answer,maybe so.I don't know.

I also listen to barrelmakers. Its fair to say barrelmakers disagree on some things.
I have read "The Wisdom of Gayle McMillan "sticky several times.He knew barrelmaking. I won't argue with him.

As far as the shooter or amateur smith is concerned,Mr Kreiger and Mr Mcmillan agree on this: Its unlikely the customer can/will do to a McMillan,a Krieger,or other quality,hand lapped custom barrel anything that will improve on what the barrelmaker has done.
The longitudal "lay" of the hand lapped barrel does not particularly require break in.I agree.
But where they differ,Kreiger notes that the chamber reamer and its cut are not part of what the barrelmaker does,and there are inevitable burrs and toolmarks left by the chambering process.These carve copper dust off the bullet that is deposited in the bore.While the high spots are being smoothed off the chambering tool finish,its not good to shoot more bullets over this copper.I agree with Mr Kreiger.

But now what about Mr Tubbs,who is among the best in the world at getting results from these barrels? His "conditioning" firelapping? IMO,if I have problem,and nothing to lose,I'd try it.But not to a brand new Kreiger,Obermeyer,Bartlein,Lilja,etc barrel.Not even a Douglas.Maybe a "Midway" or "Brownells" generic.

And I absolutely believe anyone can disagree with me about any thing.I absolutely believe you can do anything you want with your barrel.

I believe it pays to be aware that some products and combinations can hurt a barrel.You may disagree.
And the folks who dismiss my friends barrel to his rate of fire don't know his rate of fire,.

[mete]

Google "Calcium in steel " will give lots of info.
But the questions , as posts here have mentioned ,include other practical things like is it worth the time, energy and money to produce the alloy ??

[Jim Watson]

But where they differ,Kreiger notes that the chamber reamer and its cut are not part of what the barrelmaker does,and there are inevitable burrs and toolmarks left by the chambering process.

Probably why Harry Pope cut the chamber first, then rifled with a bushing in the chamber.

[reynolds357]

I will note that over the years I have cleaned barrels many different ways. The only way I have ever messed one up was by shooting it out. If a barrel has to be "broken in" it was a piece of junk in the first place.

[HiBC]

The only way I have ever messed one up was by shooting it out. If a barrel has to be "broken in" it was a piece of junk in the first place"

Well,I'm thinking a debate on barrel break-in has been done several times.Its a lot like arguing politics and religion.Its substantial thread drift...and If we really want to get into it,
Its probably time to start a new thread. I'll pass.
You do it your way. I'll do it mine.

I'll even just shrug if you want to call a Krieger barrel a piece of junk.
IMO,they are among the best.

But,as I said,and as Mr Krieger said,with a quality hand lapped barrel,and Mr Krieger said with ANY quality hand lapped barrel,not just his,the bore,the product of the barrel maker's work,does not particularly require break in. Its good already.
But Mr Krieger explains it all very well here:

https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/faq#breakin

It has to do with the chambering process,that the barrelmaker often has nothing to do with.

Another FAQ that is not off topic is "Can I damage my barrel cleaning it"

[bn12gg]

Hoppes 9 and Ballistol. They have worked nicely for me. If it ain't broke, well .........

.02. David.

[pete2]

2000 rounds in a high powered rifle, I don't think it unusual to see some throat erosion.
Normal wear I think. But what do I know, I shoot pistols. I have read to increase the charge a little to compensate when accuracy starts to suffer due to throat erosion.

[Ballenxj]

Interesting read to be sure. My understanding of stainless barrels is that while they are more impervious to the elements, they tend to shoot out sooner than carbon. Anybody has more info about that, please do post.

[tobnpr]

Didn't read the articles.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone thinks substantial throat erosion at 2,000 rounds in a burner like the 6.5 x 47 Lapua is abnormal...

It isn't.

Much ado about nothing, IMHO.

[Jim Watson]

I didn't consider the 6.5x47 Lap to be a "barrel burner" but then I was comparing it to a 6.5x284.
But yes, 2000 rounds in any target or snipper rifle is really quite a lot.
A friend is changing .308 barrels on his F class rifle about 2500. But he is a GOOD shot and can tell the difference.

[JohnKSa]

My understanding of stainless barrels is that while they are more impervious to the elements, they tend to shoot out sooner than carbon. Anybody has more info about that, please do post.

Different people have different ideas about when a barrel is "shot out" but there there does seem to be some longevity benefit to going with stainless over non-stainless...

Or to going with non-stainless over stainless. Depends on who you ask.

My take is that if it made a significant and consistent difference the definitive answer to the question would be readily available. The fact that there seems to be so much conflicting information seems to be pretty clear evidence that there isn't a definitive answer and that means either insignificant differences or differences that aren't consistent.

[gw44]

Hoppes - Hoppes - Hoppes Nuff said okay !!!!

[tobnpr]

Different people have different ideas about when a barrel is "shot out" but there there does seem to be some longevity benefit to going with stainless over non-stainless...

Or to going with non-stainless over stainless. Depends on who you ask.

True. And we don't know the specifics related to the "shortish" barrel life referenced in the OP- rate of fire, and how "hot" the ammo was. It's a high-pressure round designed as a "compromise" chambering for competition, but if loaded and run hot you get what would be expected. When it comes to the major barrel makers, their steel alloy "recipes" are proprietary. SS is, according to those that make the barrels, more resistant than 4140 to heat erosion, and is worth the extra coin in many cases.

http://riflebarrels.com/support/faq/

[Onward Allusion]

My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...

Heh, can I get a Witness?! The above is triply true for pistol, btw.

[Slamfire]

Well, what is the reasonable lifetime of a barrel chambered in Accuracy International 6.5 x 47?

I don't have one. I did look up the 6.5 X 47 Lapua http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/65x47/ and it seems to be a pretty high pressure round:

High pressure capacity (435 MPa / 63090 psi) and efficient case design yields excellent velocities along with excellent brass life.

I will bet, the handloads of long range shooters are closer to 70,000 psia than 63,000.

I do have buds who were shooting things like 6.5 X 284, 260 Rem, and one, was shooting a 243 Winchester. The 243 Winchester was shot out between 700 and 800 rounds. The guys with the 6.5's, if memory serves right, those barrels were toast around 1200 to 1400 rounds.

I am of the opinion that anyone getting 2000 rounds out of a 6.5 X 47 anything, was doing real good. And I also believe, the bore cleaner was not at fault. We will see if the bore cleaner was at fault. If this guy rebarrels with the same cartridge and never uses brake cleaner again, and has to replace the next barrel around 1500 rounds, we will know his problem is all about the cartridge. And I will bet, we won't hear any yelping about brake cleaner, in fact, we won't hear any yelping at all.

[reynolds357]

Slamfire, I agree. I mainly shoot 6.5 x 284 for my 1k rifles. I have no idea how many rounds one would be "good enough to hunt. I can say they are not good enough to win matches past 750 to 800. They are embarrassing at 1000.